Always_Ask_Questions

somejew, I don’t think this can be resolved by quoting sources. I (earlier on) listened to sources from both sides in this interesting discussion, and it is clear to me that you need (as usual) to apply these sources to the current facts. So, I am usually trying to bring those facts and asking how different shitos apply.

for example, several people were saying that Zs created trouble in EY, where old yishuv lived in poverty and under pressure but without overt violence. There is some truth to that when you look from the facts of 1920. I am totally not surprised that many chachomim thought that. But, how do we judge this now in hindsight, knowing history of 20th century? Katan finally answered and said that he presumed that EY will remain British (or any Western) protectorate. A couple of us asked whether this is a reasonable assumption given that British and other empires fell apart and were overtaken by socialist and islamist governments. I don’t think we saw an answer.

In general, we all need to be a little humble about discussing these issues – answers might not be known and understood for some time. Quoting R Steinsaltz, it takes centuries for chachomim to come up with a final resolution for historical events. The idea that every political judgment by even most great chacham will be crystal clear like Moshe is not reasonable. Look at gemora – even records of most selected arguments by the most proominent chachomim reveals that many of them lose argument or do not know or forget a braisa here and there.

What unites multiple posters who criticize Israel’s policies, both those who are repeating same sentences over & over and even those who engage in the dialog – their criticism is totally without responsibility. It is up to the government/army to provide everything they’ll find acceptable, and they criticize.

They should act on their beliefs, create their fully independent, clearly unsubsidized community, whether in Israel, in EY outside of the Medinah, in Uganda and provide a shining example of how proper courts work, proper politics happen, proper army is organized, Last times Jews had reasonable selg-governance was in Poland – vaad arba artzos 200+ years ago. Israeli politics and US tight communities are a good practice but we need better orepration to self-govern when Moschiach comes

YYA> whoever is having kids in Israel and raising them is not doing so because of government subsidies, so the government is left with no leverage left there, and little credit.

I have $100 and you give me another $10. I still owe you $10 and gratitude.

> You don’t get it. We want a “Chareidi” majority.

Not sure you said ot right, but this attitude turns off all of us who are observant but do not choose to follow your leaders.

> The Chiloni government officials are just overflowing with Chochma and Middos like a broken toilet…

Someone runs the financial system and runs airplanes and makes those pagers explode. All of that requires chochma and judgment.
And multitudes of people working together and having advanced education in their fields.
Some of that requires decades of preparation. If you plan for the charedi army in, say, 30 years, you need to send enough high school
students to study physics right now.

YYA > The list of Sephardi Acharonim you haven’t heard of at all is as long as an encyclopedic Teshuvah in Yabia Omer…

Right, that is what I meant – this is whom Sephardim tend to quote. These two. You hear way more from a similar group of Ashkenazim.

> can you now answer my question as to what this matters?

I presume this was a reference to a claim that without evilZs, Jews in EY would happily live in a British protectorate. I think this just shows that some arguments get repeated from letters written 100 years ago. It would be a reasonable assumption that Brits would rule EY – at least as reasonable as the idea that going to US and EY is more risky than living in traditional communities near Commie Russia and German Nazis. This was based on the experience of surviving WW1 – it was horrible but did not affect masses (outside of USSR that closed itself after that). But now in the hindsight, we see that British protectorate was not going to happen, but Hafetz Assad protectorate was a possibility. So, even if you were so cruel as disregard what will happen with all those potential Israelis, this proposition does not seem to make any sense.

I think somejew is involved in his spiritual battles with Herzl. Could you come back to the earth and deal with simple things.
People live in a country that has a legitimate government. The government institutes a draft. In what other country, would you create disturbances to protest that? Jews were serving in Austrian and Russian empires, in democratic Poland and USA … Some found ways to avoid service, but I am not aware of Jews demanding exemptions based on their Torah learning or even just being a part of a community that values Torah learning. And when Jews were drafted into those armies, Chofetz Chaim and others were trying to help them any way they could – by providing kosher food, spiritual help, etc.

How is the current case different? The only difference I see is that Israelis are more sensitive to the observant Jews than Russian Czar and Polish Sejm. So, you are exploiting their positive attitude to blame them for not providing sufficient kashrus in the army.

A long list indeed, but in last couple of centuries, Sephardim mostly quote Ben ish Hai and r Ovadia Yosef. Maybe rav’s own teacher or uncle and a couple of mekubalim. Ashkenazi list is way longer. Maybe because we disagree with each other more.

Doctors told Netziv to take a vacation. He went to beautiful Lithuanian lakes, similar to Lakewood lake, but ran away back home after a couple of days. In the other hand, r Grozdenski and many other were spending summers away from Vilno at a popular spa in southern Lithuania, not from from Grodno.

chief > His views at the time were certainly inaccurate and would never be accurate until he acknowledges parts that he wasn’t told, which would require adjustment of views.

This seems like the biggest challenge of our times. We learned, the hard way, that world affect us – through assimilation, reform, communists, nazis, UN, arabs, zionists … So, if we stay limited to our own way of life, we get blindsided. If we join the fray, we might asiimilate…

In old times, it sometimes worked when just the askanim and great leaders like R Yochanan b Zakkai would get involved, but it looks like it is not sufficient in our times. The story goes that anti-religious theatre (tautological?) showed a Jewish army where those who bilta house/got married leave, then those who are afraid leave, with only R Chaim Brisker and R Spector were left. R Chaim responded taht this is right and they won the war.

But do we really think that a modern Rosh Yeshiva can win all the wars without socvial scientists, generals, doctors, engineers – all working together.
If this were so, then Chofetz Chaim would have helped Polish government build tanks to fights germans and russians instead of petitioning the Poles to relax sanitary regulations on mikvaos explaining Jews could not afford building non-stinky ones (he did not ask for subsidies either).

> spending a week or two or three full time in the Beis Medrash.

I don’t like to get personal, but this time spent should translate into greater wisdom and ability to learn sources and understand multiple shitos of a sugya.
If this is not happening, maybe try a different Beis Midrash, maybe Beis Mussar.

YYA > You really know a lot about the Army, (and the Yeshiva world) do you?

I am giving you hyperbolic examples. My point is – propose realistic, even if small, adjustments and niches. If you can deploy a cyber unit or food delivery – that will be a step towards shalom. Saying “no” to everything is not moving. As mentioned, Tal law was supposed to create a step forward, and it did not.

Sephardim were more influential before expulsion from Spain and Ashkenazim became – after.

There is general history trend here, as Northern Europe became stronger comparing with Mediterranean. There is a possible connection here with increased production of beans in N. Europe that was cross-grown with wheat. Population is generally limited by the amount of available protein, that is mostly coming from meat that requires a lot of grass, etc. Beans added to that, ad also lead to kitniyos (according to a T’Ch who researched this history).

Similarly, Ashkenazi lomdus reflects European science v Arab stagnation from renaissance and up. Bit I do have a lot of sympathy towards Sephardi derech that often addresses issues directly. As we discussed recently, a Sepahrdi graduate of Lakewood criticizes ashkenazim for lack of real lomdus – when you have a method that can reach any conclusion you want, it is not a method (this corresponds to Occam razor; Karl Popper definition of what theory is and to machine learning theories of degrees of freedom and VC dimension).

I’ve learned that our generations do not have ability to determine what is happening in the world, except maybe through midah kneged midah. So, that is what I am trying to use.

Zionists proposed to have a Jewish state in EY and that happened, and they saved millions from death and assimilation in process, and established a place where Jews can keep mitzvos and learn Torah. I am not suggesting voting for mapai, but we should acknowledge the facts.

I think a lot of tensions come from projecting old political arguments onto current events. For example, R Berl Wein traces anti-religious sentiment of Israeli lefties back to the time of cantonists where Russians required (religious) kahal to provide army recruits, leading to corruption, poor and orphans being drafted … we see same when blaming zionists for things they did hundred years ago. We discussed this and seemed to agree that (a) facts are different now and (b) arguments at that time were imperfect from our knowledge of history. For example, did it really matter what school was built or who was elected into Polish Sejm in 1939 …

To see effect of this history – look at Sephardim, where Shas combines multiple groups and there is less inter-group enmity. They did not go through haskalah and reform and socilaism – but right now, they are stam Israelis, but they are less affected by the political outrage. Maybe, we should use a Sephardi Beit Din to resolve all these tricky questions (and I know Ashkenazi rabbis who go to R Ovadia Yosef’ teshuvot on Israel-related issues).

YYA,
I see in the current generation almost zero doctors. I am not in the midst of a large charedi community, though. I hear from charedi parents who are not able to convince their kids to go to college after yeshiva, because yeshivos convinced them not to. There are some who realize that they need to do something, they struggle to get to 3rd rate college for health professions – dental assistant, ophtalmologist, etc. All of that after being married for a couple of years. One of my friends was trying to encourage his son to start supporting his (son’s) family, the son said – you sent me to all these places where I did not get prepared for work. I am regularly discussing this with my kids to make sure schools don’t make them into vagabonds.

YYA > burden of raising the next generation

I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting. If communities see each other as brothers, the problems will be easily solved.

> JV: Although the State of “Israel” claims to be a “Jewish State”, it is anything but. It is an atheistic state, just as much as the Soviet Union was; and it always was so.

JV, this is what I was talking about. With attitude like that, reflecting many others, I am sure, you cannot both rejeect the state as treif, and demand services from them as tzaddikim. Need to be consistent.

There are halochos against not looking too much and halochos of finding ways to deny possible mazerus cases. There is no mitzva to go around with a DNA kit to uncover every possible mamzer. On the other hand. R Zeira was silently avoiding shidduch with his teacher R Yochanan’s daughter because he did not trust yichus in EY comparing w/ Bavel.

katan> rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.

you seem to be referring to an age someone can be registered as a full time learner without being called up. So, you are saying it is Zionist zechus that so many are “learning”?!

What about the proverbial hasid shoteh – would you allow him to save the drowning woman or only if she is dressed appropriately?

YYA > On what planet can schools teach 18 year old boys how to deal with the ???????? they face in the IDF, unless they are Yosef HaTzaddik?

anecdotal, but my kids invite once-in-a-while friends from yeshivishe towns to visit. Admittedly, they are not the top-level learners in yeshivos and BYs, but their parents are very “frum” and they are visually observant at their town level. You literally need to watch them constantly – they start flirting with village drunks, with no communication skills. I presume they would fall into those proverbial 30%. A normal MO student would not behave like that. They are not prepared to function outside of their community.

And, again – just start constructive dialog: find jobs that work best, find people who would do them best. Maybe send those who are stringest in their middos. Make specific requests where appropriate, but cooperate instead of demanding. It is not normal for Torah community to be looked down by ordinary Jews, including observant. You can’t blame anti-religious forces for that. Something is wrong with the picture when “Torah” Jews are seen like that. Some told me that when R Meir Shapiro was visiting Canada and started crossing the road, a local policeman, without knowing who that person is, immediately stopped traffic to let the Rav come through. This is how it should be.

NP > one does not mitigate the other.

Intellectually, I am with you. But we have an idea that someone involved in communal affairs is recognized and also might lose out in learning (Pirkei Avos, Mordechai). All the shluchim with their children growing up in non-religious towns – not all of these children are going to become talmidei chachamim. According to the logic of the “tzahal” threads – what they are doing is too risky and it is safer to sit at home and talk about hesranos of others.

YYA > Hashem created this force to keep us the ?? ?????, even when some don’t want to be.

Well, this does connect with Zionism. R Schach writes that because early Zs were ready to go to Beirut University, antisemitism had to be activated – to protect them from intermarriage. Inter alia, this means that R Schach thought that Hashem cares about Zionists …

But while the hesranos of Zionists are obvious, their achievements are also easy to see – all Jews who were saved through their efforts. If you want, they diagnosed the problem well – that Europe is not just dangerous but more dangerous than before. Their solution may not have been perfect. But those who had perfect solutions but missed out understanding urgency of the question were less helpful. It may be not a surprise that Herzl that lived the modern life understood Dreyfus affair and what it implies while some rabbonim who were not involved in the world.

yankel > fact is that RZ tried for years and still suffer a 30% OTD rate.

I am not qualified to analyze this number and who is included. I’ve seen some pretty political and extreme people who call themselves RZ. I think they became like that due to ideological education rather than army. And if they go further away in the army, it will be their previous experience and not the army’s fault. I see same in MO community in US. On one hand, a number of day school grads going in a wrong way, but then many of them came from problematic families to begin with.

But practically speaking:
1) charedi community had 80 years in the desert to adapt, courtesy of Israeli taxpayers. This is double of what Hashem thought is necessary to fix a generation of yetzey mitzrayim. If 80 years is not enough, then you have to plan to come back to society when Moschiach comes and establishes a perfect society – but it will be achieved by mitzvos of others.

2) continue repeating your (reasonable) conditions of joining the army instead of flat rejection, Look for ways to do something productive. Organize a unit of delivering food, another – giving divrei Torah, another – watching over neighborhoods. Do it on your own, dont wait for army to come knock on your door.

yankel > katan is still stuck in the 1800’s where colonial powers rule and indigenous populations still live ‘peacefully’

this was not just 1800 – colonial system worked until WW2 and even later in Africa. But you are right that there is a systemic problem here: Judaism is long-term and conservative. This works well most of the time – except when it does not. This is lfe in general – Avraham is going around teaching for years, which is his great achievement, and then he needs to make a decision in one second to stop shechting his son and switch to a ram. Similarly, we have crossing of Yam Suf. And then establishing new approaches after destruction of beis hamikdashim.

So, our times change pretty fast (siman of Moschiach?) – we barely learned to open fridge on Shabbos and then we have whole Torah on our phones and chatgpt paskening. So, it is understandable that people cling to old ideas for too long. Does not make it right, though, when it contrqdicts the facts.

yankel> for haredim this is totally unconceivable .

You need to “pay the price” for the luxury of living in the modern world. I presume if someone wants to live the ways of R Shimon b Shetach, there are still caves in the world where one can settle. But, apparently, most people prefer having chairs, food from the store, phones without wires, roads without manure. This price can be paid either by working or serving and it can be paid by teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD. This is not such a high price to pay, historically. Imagine you live 500 years ago – how much time you’d have to spend getting your food, cooking, walking, earning to have a couple of seforim – this generation is doing ok in terms of time available for learning.