CS

@syag

I don’t see why you’re offended. Im just trying to figure out the disconnect here why people can’t accept my Derech. So first I got the message that although you (as a whole) can accept my logic, it just sounds too different than you’re Derech, and so you’re sending allot of shocked responses to the effect of, “What, you really think that?” Without addressing what’s wrong with it.

To that I responded that I understand you’re not open to really listening and that’s understandable, but there’s no point in going on before people can digest what I’ve said.

Then I’m getting other responses with the message of “You can’t believe what your Rebbe says. In fact, if it sounds unusual, you should realise your Rebbe made a mistake or didnt really know what he was saying.

To that I responded with the Rambam and quoted it myself because I saw people aren’t going to necessarily look it up.
As you can see, not only is it not strange to not sure with your Rebbe, is actually like rebelling against Hashem. So my logical conclusion is that maybe you don’t hold by the same level of respect for your Rebbeim because maybe you don’t hold as highly of them as tzaddikim? You can’t have it born ways – tell me I shouldn’t trust my own Rebbe, but cos that you don’t esteem your own. Unless you disagree with the Rambam which would be a bigger issue and I don’t think that’s the case.

Another option is that people are ignorant of the Rebbe’s greatness in Torah or are deliberately ignoring it.
If that’s the case, I can’t help you as before making statements against a big tzaddik, the least you should do is so some research to make sure your suspicions are really true. And you don’t have to even google around or call people, MC has done a great job with providing quotes. And someone who persists with these comments obviously had no respect for Torah authority so I don’t have a common ground with him.

The last thing I can think of is that you were not aware of the way tzaddikim and Rebbeim are to be treated, and now that I’ve quoted you halacha, you will obviously not disagree, but you don’t understand how this level of respect can go with not serving A”Z cvs. If that’s the case, then just say you don’t understand this. And any of us will be happy to explain as there is a well known maamar called byom Ashtei asar that addresses this.

“I will say no. No such place. As a (I hope) fairly learned Lubavitcher, who has heard all these arguments many times, I’ve yet to see such a reference. Anyone can come and insert “hints” anywhere they want, but an explicit source (without reading between the lines, or twisting words,) simply doesn’t exist.”

Here is where we disagree. As you admit most of lubavitch does think the Rebbe is moshiach, although it would be most convenient not to. We do this because it was pretty clear what the Rebbe said, and before gimmel tammuz, there were no differing opinions, only after, which honestly seems more like apologetics, and lack of conviction in what the Rebbe said.

I invite slominer to look up Sefer hasichos 5752, and learn any sicha there, and let us know what he thinks.

Well I suppose its hashgocha protis is almost yud tes Kislev 😂😂😂

Seriously speaking I find this CR allot more stimulating add fascinating than collive because there is much more of an array of opinions and less censorship to promote one view.that’s a compliment. Although I have never ever been suspected of Kfira, and that was a nice welcome 😂😂

@syag I have said many times that this heavily relies on what the Rebbe says but I don’t get what’s about that. In fact, for me, it is more surprising you don’t take Rebbeim and tzaddikim more seriously
Maybe because as mentioned, tzaddikim seem to be in short supply nowadays, so you weren’t raised with this concept? If there’s something I am missing, please inform me. Below please find some Nigleh sources that prove this point. If you can rebut this point then, please do. Also im sorry if I come across as condescending – I highly respect you all our I wouldnt waste my time here, but what am I to make of the fact that act source brought is just ignored, and then the grand consensus is that were living in denial etc without bothering to address point by point?

“Vihei Morah Rabbuch kMorah Shomayim ” Pirkei avos
ויאמינו בה ובמשה עבדו (שמות)

Rambam hilchos tt chap 5:
Just as a person is commanded to honor his father and hold him in awe, so, too, is he obligated to honor his teacher and hold him in awe.

[Indeed, the measure of honor and awe] due one’s teacher exceeds that due one’s father. His father brings him into the life of this world, while his teacher, who teaches him wisdom, brings him into the life of the world to come.

[Accordingly,] if he saw a lost object belonging to his father and one belonging to his teacher, the lost object belonging to his teacher takes precedence. If his father and his teacher are both carrying loads, he should relieve his teacher’s load, and then his father’s. If his father and his teacher are held as captives, he should redeem his teacher, and afterwards, redeem his father. However, if his father is [also] a Torah sage, he should redeem his father first.

[Similarly,] if his father is a Torah sage – even if he is not equivalent to his teacher – he should return his lost article, and then that belonging to his teacher.

There is no greater honor than that due a teacher, and no greater awe than that due a teacher. Our Sages declared: “Your fear of your teacher should be equivalent to your fear of Heaven.”

Therefore, they said: Whoever disputes the authority of his teacher is considered as if he revolts against the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 26:9]: “…who led a revolt against God.”

Whoever engages in controversy with his teacher is considered as if he engaged in controversy with the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 20:13]: “…where the Jews contested with God and where He was sanctified.”

Whoever complains against his teacher is considered as if he complains against the Divine Presence, as implied [by Exodus 16:8]: “Your complaints are not against us, but against God.”

Whoever thinks disparagingly of his teacher is considered as if he thought disparagingly of the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 21:5]: “And the people spoke out against God and Moses.”

According to you, the Rambam must’ve been a lubavitcher. I don’t know how else to understand the lack of understanding emunas Tzaddikim and respect of one’s Rebbe. Please explain

@ everyone who is asking me further questions. I think unfortunately you have proved sechels point quite well, that you are just not open to really learning and listening. You haven’t responded to the sources me and Moshiach chat brought, just say we’re foolish and mental patients… So I really don’t see a reason to go on when no one has given a real counterpoint to the logic of a) the Rebbe is our Rebbe/tzaddik see hilchos tt chap 5. 2) the Rebbe clearly hinted that he’s Moshiach. 3) so we believe our Rebbe.

@burntface I really commiserate with your pain, can’t feel the depths but can just imagine. I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I had been there at the time. The chassidim tried to the very end to avoid gimmel tammuz, (along with the Rebbe, I believe) and that must have been such a confusing message to the youth of the time.

No one is gonna convince me that I cannot trust my own Rebbe. Ain Eid naase dayan because of the koach hariya,, and I have experienced the Rebbe’s greatness myself on many levels.

I am personally ambivalent over whether the Rebbe must be Moshiach as I definitely see place for both interpretations, but I don’t yet see anyone else who could for the category so until then, it’s the Rebbe because he is the most recent Nossi Hador (to answer that question.)

And why not the Chazon Ish? Because he didn’t take personal responsibility for every Jew, just got his chareidi community. As that’s fine. He was a top leader in Klal Yisrael. Just not Nossi Hador.

@dovidbt

Yes as with any teacher who you hold to be your Rebbe. See hilchos talmud Torah perek 5, of Rambam

And this is what is the real truth: yiddishkeit is the true feminism. True feminism isn’t what the goyishe world promotes, that a woman should prove she is just as good as a man at man’s jobs. It is that she should appreciate, and get the world to appreciate her role.

An example: we have a problem: basketball players get paid more than teachers. Would you say the solution is that all teachers should become basketball players, or that we should create an awareness within the world why teachers should be appreciated for what they do, and get paid more than basketball players?

Obviously, the latter. So to here: the solution to womans role being undervalued isn’t that all the women should become men, as secular feminism would have us believe, but that we should educate everyone as to why the women’s role is so vitally important, as important as a man’s role and I’m certain aspects even more, just as is the case vice versa. This is Torah feminism. And the Rebbe spearheaded that and so avoided this conflict for lubavitcher women way before feminism even took off. And anyone else who learns it.

@joseph

If I may, here is where chassidus would help you out allot. Once you understand the underlying dynamic of za and malchus- represented by male and female respectively. I’ve you get that, all the disparate maamarei chazal fall in place. From the fact you constantly bring up this topic under different assumed scenarios it seems you are troubled by a contradiction here at trying to resolve it. Maybe this is it: you know Torah is emes and must be good for men and women alike. But it doesn’t seem so some places appear to favor men and some women. And bring a male, if it’s a contest you’d like the male to win. Is that it?

Whatever your conundrum may be, by getting the inner scoop, all these questions fall away.

And that’s why Chabad shluchos who have this understanding are very content to raise their families and put that first, and yet take great pride in it and don’t think of their role as any less than men. At the same time, they also have the balance, with a mashpia s input, to get involved outside the home with shlichus activities as much as possible while keeping the home first. And since we love our role and appreciate it, we are not looking to be rabbas. I sincerely advise you to look up the same book referenced on the other thread, “El nshei ubnos Yisrael,” and enjoy looking up the copious footnotes on every chapter… Hatzlacha!

@sechel hayashar as I said not a personal attack, but what you said could have been seriously misconstrued so I’m glad we clarified. The bochurim shluchim were in OT last year. If you are the same year, although I’d put you at a year older, then you may quite possibly know my brother. It’s really too bad the anonymity rule, huh?:)

@sechelhayashar

You asked where I thought you didn’t express yourself as a Xhosa I’d. Since others on this group have asked about the topic and since you are anonymous I will respond. Please don’t take this as an attack, it is not.

I was referring to your comments of “Even a woman can understand this.” Also, later on, you tried to dismiss my comments because I am a woman, without being misogynistic of course (wry smile.)

Now you also defended me when slominer suspected I was a man, so like I said this isn’t an attack, just would like to clarify the Rebbe’s position on the matter.

Yes, Noshim Daaton Kaalos, but also Bina yeseira nitna l’isha, A’s explained above. Also, I dont think readily admitting when I don’t know something but am happy to look it up, shows I’m confused by merely intellectually honest.

I have heard it said by Rabbi Simon Jacobson in his my life chassidus applied series, and Rabbi Yaffe, dean of Talmudical Academy, respectively, that the Rebbe said that although everyone needs to learn chassidus, women should especially learn it because since they have an additional gift of Bina, they can understand the deeper concepts even better.

Do you know that when Rabbi Gershon Mendel Garelik was lonely in far off Italy, especially as he had no chevrusa, the Rebbe suggested he learn with his wife?

And lest you think that was an exception, the Rebbe encouraged husbands and wives to learn together on a regular basis, as a way of strengthening their bond.

As a matter of fact, I myself prepare my husband a nice breakfast while he goes to an early minyan, and then we learn together after breakfast for a half hour. And I have kids.
Sometimes I explain to him the material and sometimes he explains.

Do you know the Rebbe said special sichos for women only? And no sichos for men only?

Just to clinch this, I was thinking of discussing some questions that have come up on this thread with the bochurim shluchim who were coming over on Shabbos, and my husband,without asking what the questions were, told me there was no point. Because if I didn’t know the answers, the bochurim wouldn’t either as none were exceptionally brilliant.

Now that sounds allot more like the Rebbe’s approach on women, and women’s learning especially.

I’m assuming you are in shidduchim or will be starting soon. I’d suggest you learn the Sefer of the Rebbe’s sichos on women “El nshei uvnos Yisrael” and learn it as women, with their Bina yeseira are quick to discern what you think of their intellectual capabilities:)

@moshiachat you make good points but you should spell out words properly. It will lend credence to what you are saying.

@everyone I challenge those quiet spectators to speak up and tell me whether this has helped you understand the Lubavitch views on the Rebbe better, in a positive way, so that we can allay sechel hayashars concerns for good. If yes, maybe I will address an additional topic that has been in the background. If not, maybe he is right and I shall comment no further

Yeah the Rebbe created it to solve a chinuch problem today:

In the past, people loved in an environment where you did what you were told or else… Especially under the governments of old. So the chinuch for children of doing Torah and Mitzvos no matter what you feel like doing, was accepted.

Today, especially in America, it’s not like that. There’s very much an atmosphere of no one can force me to do anything I don’t want, and if children are forced, many times they reject it when they’re older.

But since the foundation of avodas Hashem is kabbolas ol, how do we give this over in a way the children will appreciate?

Enter the Rebbe’s brainstorm, Tzivos Hashem. The children accept upon themselves the yoke of listening to their Commander in Chief, Hashem, and the more missions they fulfill, the higher they rise in rank in Hashem’s army…

@sechelhayashar
I wanted to apologise if I’ve been harsh or insulting. If I came across that way it was completely unintended and the only posts that may have been written that way were coming from a sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard, and I apologise in case I came across otherwise.

@whoever felt I was insulting or digging at non lubavitchers

That was completely not my intention. Sometimes it can be hard to balance pride and excitement in my derech without coming across that way, but I have tried. In case I was misunderstood, let me just say I really respect the Satmar for their extra sense of aidelkeit that comes with bring shut off from the world.

I respect Lakewood for their extreme devotion to limud haTorah, and applaud their hard working wives.

I respect the general frum world for their ehrlichkeit…

Yes sometimes my emotions overwhelm my intellect so thanks to the males here for balancing that. I would like to think I add a balance with a woman’s natural tendencies of Bina yeseira, rakus, and excitement (middos) to what my be otherwise a combative, cold logic conversation, but In case that isn’t needed here, I’m happy to bow out and leave this to the learning professionals:):)

One more point: the whole debate is quite silly because it’s kind of a moot point until someone can bring an example of a leader in our generation who can rival the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And before you list names, make sure you know who the Rebbe is and was. If anyone can manage to find another gadol who has as much influence and care for every Jew as the Rebbe did, (and Joseph here if where I disagree and think the Rebbe changed much for the frum world as well, with regards to how they relate to their fellow not yet frum Yidden), then we can really discuss. Until then, even sechel hayashar would agree that no one can really replace the Rebbe as an actual candidate to be Moshiach.

If there will ever be someone who fits that bill, I’m sure the meshichists will sit up and take notice as well, and really, all everyone of us wants is just that Moshiach come asap!

@sechelhayashar because until the world is in a geula state the full depths of Toraso shel Moshiach cannot be revealed, as explained in many places that you can probably quote me. Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)

@Daasyochid That is patently incorrect that no one else considered the Rebbe a tzaddik by this definition except for us. Would you like to hear names? Or are you not really asking but merely protesting?

@sechelhayashar my husband also didn’t know offhand, so I asked some friends who are buki in nun aleph nun beis, and someone said try nun aleph- tazria metzora. Since I’m just waiting for my challa to rise, I treated myself to look it up, and it’s in ois yud beis.

@put down the gun

Fascinating point because the Rebbe says straight out that Mordechai was the Moshe of his generation. Wow lots of things to research here… When an I gonna do it all? Any volunteers to help me out? Lol I’ll do my best but got a buddy week ahead. I’ll put it in my list of things to do though.

@sechel hayashar nice! You recall I said chet as chisaron in the beginning of this thread? But good to know an exact source, thanks!

@joseph guess we’ll see what happens…

@slominer
“What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”

For practical purposes let’s say starting with learning Tanya is a good start.

“What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”

There are non Chabad chassidus sefarim but as it is not written in Chabad fashion, you would need to learn Chabad chassidus to understand that too. Not sure if not chassidim learn the chassidus of other kreizen.

“How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”

Well that’s a great range lol. Generally, because it’s pnimiyus haTorah so it gives the neshama view. For example, say parshas korach- mefarshim will be debating the technicalities of what korachs complaints were and how the story happened, chassidus will address the underlying dynamic of what does this represent in our avodas Hashem? Because everything in Torah is a lesson for us. Torah milashon horaah. For some chassidus on the parsha, try likutei sichos-the first four volumes especially are referred to as the basics. Others have more shakla vtarya. I actually go on a spiritual high when I delve into a sicha with a chevrusa. It’s awesome. I didn’t think I would say that before but now that hopefully I’ve given you cause to believe I’m a rational person, I can tell you about my sicha highs.

“As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-chasidim?”

Yeah.

@slominer actually funnily enough I gave my first underground chassidus shiur there on a maamar in derech mitzvosecha I think it was, when I was 19. The next night there was a lchaim of a friend of mine from there but I was not allowed to greet anyone from the shiur as it was apparently a big deal if they’d be caught.

@joseph seems you didn’t see my previous response regarding shlucha.

@sechel hayashar

Interesting about the maamar. I got my answer but I should look this up over Shabbos.

so you have no problem with the Rebbe saying in Basi lgani that the Frierdiker Rebbe will be moshiach, but you have a problem with the Rebbe saying that Rebbe will be moshiach? Especially as you know I’m the nuns when the Rebbe said Nossi doreinu would be Moshiach, he said the author of likutei sichos, and that was not the Frierdiker Rebbe, so I don’t get why you even think that’s an answer as to do you selectively learn what for with your comfortable beliefs?

“if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)”

Ummm… This would make me suspect your credentials as a bonafide lubavitcher much more than your understandings of the sichos… But thanks for the vote of confidence I suppose.

As far as the ikkar-agreed I’ve mentioned that many times.

As far as the non joke- if the source is the Alter Rebbe then youre right it’s inappropriate to call it a joke. Didn’t know where it was from

@yiddishekop the first chassidim were definitely not am haaratzim. If you’d like to know where to read the history I’ll be happy to direct you.
As far as the peyes afaik, it’s because according the the kabbala of the Arizal, they should be short. Don’t know why everyone else wears them long, would love to know if anyone does know, please lmk

@joseph

“So in summary…”

Great summary

“1) You’re estimating an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach (regardless of what terms you use to call anyone.)”

Yes, or they think they haven’t yet seen or heard of anyone else who could take him over, so he remains the best candidate.

2) “Even non-meshichists believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, but the only difference they have with meshichists is that the non-meshichists don’t think non-Lubavitchers should be told to the truth that the Rebbe is Moshiach whereas the meshichists want to make sure even non-Lubavitchers are told this fact.”

It’s not about hiding the truth. Ask any lubavitcher and if they sense you are sincere they will be happy to discuss their beliefs with you. They just don’t go running around spreading them uncalled for.

“3) Some (but not all) non-meshichists don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach.”

Yeah as seen courtesy of SH

“4) Nowadays there is little real ideological differences of view between meshichists and non meshichists. It’s mostly a difference in tactics of spreading the message.”

Well I don’t subscribe to many of SHs views so no not really

“Follow-up question:

What’s the deal with “Yechi…”? Who says it, who doesn’t, and what do Lubavitchers think of the Yechi issue.”

Well definitely only Meshichistim say it. Even within Meshichistim there are many who have stopped saying it because it’s become politicized by the more extreme bochurim who take over 770 and use it as their excuse to commit all kinds of narishkeit. Some will only say it within a Lubavitch community that says Yechi, and Israeli shluchim will tend to say it within their communities as well…