☕ DaasYochid ☕

R’ Aharon Feldman shlit”a, as paraphrased by Rabbi Yaakov Menken on Cross-Currents: (from two years ago, but the essential parts remain relevant)

One must begin with history. At the founding of the state, the Zionist establishment needed to show that all of Jewry was under their umbrella. The state and religious Jews, though, had diametrically opposed definitions of what it means to be a Jew. The Zionist definition is a nationalist one. According to the religious definition, a Jew is part of a nation that received the Torah at Har Sinai, adheres to its laws, and believes that it is a nation because of the giving of the Torah.

Some Jews chose not to back the state. Our Gedolim felt that they could join with the state, on condition that they be granted autonomy. They would have their own education system, and other autonomous rights. This was the basis of the status quo agreement. Whatever took place before the formation of the state would continue in the same manner: the laws of marriage, Shabbos as a day of rest, and religious Jews would have an autonomous education system.

The Chazon Ish knew that Torah learning could not flourish, and Gedolim could not develop, if youngsters spent three of their most formative years in the Army. But even more important, Ben-Gurion wanted the Army to be a melting pot for immigrants from all over the world, to forge them into a new nation. Charedi Jews did not, and do not, want to be melted down. Living in an environment of chilul Shabbos, rampant immorality, and questionable Kashrus is toxic for our youth.

What Charedi parent in the United States would send his son to dorm in a co-ed secular university for three years? There are parents who do this, but we also know the tragic results. This is why we have separate schools, separate newspapers, no television, no unfiltered Internet. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on education systems that isolate our children from secular culture.

The Hesder model is not truly separate, and the results are predictable; a large proportion of them are lost to Judaism. According to Rav Eliezer Melamed, Rosh Yeshiva of the Religious-Zionist Yeshiva Har Brachah, 20% come out completely secular. Those who return to Yeshiva are weakened in their commitment to Torah. When I moved to Israel, the Religous Zionist party had thirteen seats in the government, and today they have five. This is in no small part due to the secularization of their youth in the Army.

Even were it true that it had the status of pikuach nefesh, which it does not, Charedim cannot serve in the Army. Spiritual pikuach nefesh is of no lesser importance than physical pikuach nefesh. We should have the status of conscientious objectors in any democratic society.

Now let us turn to the attempt by the government to introduce secular subjects into our educational system. We may wonder, why do we object to introducing the same subjects taught in American Torah high schools? But we cannot judge Israel like the United States. The problems and challenges are different, and the ways that we must respond to those problems are different.

Moreover, Gemara prepares a person for modern technology more than even math and science. When our students enter job training, they score higher than their secular counterparts, because their minds have been developed. A recent United States Department of Education study concluded that in order to deal with the computer-based society of the next decade, education should not emphasize facts, but critical and logical thinking. And this is what Gemara does to a mind.

Please be advised, Mr. Netanyahu, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Lapid, that we do not feel that we can survive as a nation with your proposed laws.

I will give myself as an example of what is going to happen. I moved to Israel with three small children 50 years ago, with tremendous difficulty. I wanted to study Torah and experience the Kedushah of Eretz Yisrael. I only moved there because I was assured that we could raise our children as religious Jews, without government interference and without them having to go into the Army. This might not be true any longer. If you pass a law saying that it is criminal not to enlist in the Army, then although I love Israel no less than I did 50 years ago, and have for 50 years built up my entire family structure in Israel, I will nevertheless do everything possible to pull my family out. The dedication of my future descendants to Torah is more vital to me. We will pack our bags, as Jews have done many times throughout our history, and escape from this danger. Spiritual danger is more devastating than physical danger. It is tragic that a Jewish state will force me to do this, but it is no less dangerous for me and my future because it is a Jewish state.

ROB, if you would truly understand his view, you would realize that that is incorrect. I don’t want to argue the point here, though. We’ve argued it enough; I think this thread should be about turning down the rhetoric, respecting each other, and having achdus.

M, your perspective is skewed, but again, this thread isn’t about that. I think you should respect the fact that we do not view it that way at all, and lose the anger. That’s all I’m saying here.

M: Thank you. I honestly believe that if we respect the sincerity of our different beliefs – not accepting the opinions themselves, but perhaps understanding where they come from and the acknowledging the sincerity behind them – we can go a long way towards healing the unnecessary animosity.

ROB, that was a perfect example. You know that there are answers to all this, (there’s no need to rehash), so by calling our mehalech, as set forth by gedolim such as the Chazon Ish and Rav Shach, absurd, you only increase the bad blood.

There are, with the consent of their Sefardic poskim,. There are also people whose family minhag is to wait six hours who eat a milchige supper in BMG.

The sevara is that your yeshiva becomes your makom, and you follow minhag hamakom.

Minhag cannot override halachah.

They’re both the Rebbe, one in Boston, one in Yerushalayim.

We discussed all this already.

I (and others) asked, and you dodged, but didn’t answer. That’s not a discussion, since you merely evaded, as you continue to do.

HaKatan has no answers.

Waze

I said you can’t keep V’nishmartem Meod in Israel.

Again: What do you think the Brisker Rov held? The Chazon Ish? Rav Shach? R’ Shlomo Zalman? The Steipler? R’ Elyashiv? Do you think they held everyone should leave?

Sam, more pointedly: Does the world not see Dam Yehudi as Hefker? It’s not a matter of arguing, it’s a matter of recognizing the metzius.

Avi, obviously, you know that we don’t think that’s the case.

Joseph, that doesn’t address anything I’ve written.

now the whole world knows that “Dam Yehudi Lo Hefker”.

Sam, do you really believe this to be the case?

HaKatan, do you eat from a hechsher which uses mashgichim who like the State of Israel? Do you drink such wine? If someone is a frum Zionist, do we trust his eidus? Are we allowed to daven in a shul with an Israeli flag, or one which recites the aforementioned tefillah l’medinah? Yeah, I know, a question for my LOR… the Brisker Rav said… R’ Elchonon said…

HaKatan has no answers.

“The dor we live in is a terrible dor. In fact its the worst dor i ever lived in.” – Bar Shattya

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/bnai-torah-with-trophy-wives#post-394284

MA, neither Google nor I said such a thing.

Now you need to do TESHUVA for your false accusation. And you wonder why there are such tzaros in klal Yisroel, R”L.

But the idolatry and heresy of Zionism is not at all a matter of “eilu viEilu”

And as repeatedly demonstrated, is not taken literally or halacha l’maaseh.

HaKatan has no answers.

Google is therefore not saying that stealing isn’t dishonest.

Lol

I am not saying it is wrong because it is extreme, just that some people are attracted to extreme shittos for no objective reason. The Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav zt”l came to their conclusions based on pure daas Torah, not through negius. The issues of voting and government funding are not small or inconsequential, although certainly the Chazon Ish, who held of both, was against the medinah.

Shopping is correct, making aliyah with children is very dangerous.

Sure, because you personally like that extreme shittah, but not for any objective reason.

The Chazon Ish held to vote and take money from the government, and it had nothing to do with liking the medinah.

Scoff all you want, it’s a true story, and not unusual for a frum person, MO or otherwise, to be moser nefesh for Shabbos.

If you do consider it to be so, how would saying a Zionist prayer not be an act of idolatry?

This is a question which has been asked of Hakatan numerous times (with slight variations), and he has done nothing but dodge and evade it. It is clear as day that in many ways, halachah l’maaseh, we don’t treat Zionism as literal kefirah and avodah zarah. Obviously, regarding this, the statements Hakatan has repeated in the names of the gedolim either a) don’t exist (I don’t recall Hakatan ever quoting the actual sources), b) are not meant literally, or c) we don’t pasken like them. (I think (b) is most likely).

Hakatan has no answers.

Fraud and swindling are forms of theft.

In that situation, leave a note.

DY: No questions asked still doesn’t mean they’re making it a rental policy. It’s simply an incentive for the buyer to keep it as hassle-free as possible.

Could be, it could also mean that they think enough people will decide to keep the item that it’s worth it for them.