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Eventually we will see that with “Open Orthodox”.
You think they’ll eventually become frum? I hope so.
Simch613, I think the rift between Chassidim and Litvaks got smaller for two reasons: one, the difference became smaller, and two, the Litvaks appreciated that Chassidim survived and thrived and remained extremely devoted and frum.
I certainly hope the rift between Chareidim and DL similarly shrinks.
I agree with yytz that in chu”l it’s not nearly as rancorous as in E.Y. I think the reasons are not only because Chareidim in E.Y. are more extreme, but also because the Zionism issue is so much more relevant there, as is the military issue. All three of these are related.
Sam, that doesn’t explain the observation that the rift between chareidim and DL is wider than that which exists between chassidim and litvaks.
Do you really think it’s a good idea to start deciding which pictures are attractive and which aren’t?
ZB, or they think it likely that some will take more than a quick glance.
Flatbusher, you didn’t ask if it’s assur, you asked if there is a basis.
Rav Reisman ??? ??? ?????
What are chareidi publications going to do if Hillary Clinton runs for president?
FTFY
Is he automatically a heretic if he calls others heretics? If so, your calling him a heretic makes you one, correct?
our thread
Wow. How many names did you post under in that thread?
BTW, to answer your question, there is halachic basis:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46247&st=&pgnum=211&hilite=
Flatbusher,
Have you been to a home where they hold pictures of women are assur?
I am not sure that a place that would consider hiring a YCT graduate really cares what the Novominsker Rebbe says
Again, that is not the primary reason (if it was even considered at all) for the kol korei.
Flatbusher,
Why are you assuming that if some people hold that it’s assur, those same people display pictures in their homes?
Can you please pick me up an ArtScroll siddur?
BTW, did anybody actually answer the question in the OP?
Yes, Sam did.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/moetzes-denounces-open-orthodoxy#post-586568
RY23, it depends on if they use unorthodox hair styling techniques.
And that’s the main reason here: to fortify our Machne and our future generations
Correct.
They will also have to consider that nobody who follows the Moetzes will join or even daven there.
More importantly, even people who don’t automatically follow the Moetzes might realize that they’re correct here.
Even more importantly, this needed to be done for bigger reasons than the scenario you describe.
We are debating if you fight it by condeming it or showing as positive frumkite.
What’s wrong with doing both?
the big Shul went with a YU Rabbi B”H and OO is probably slowly losing the fight there.
See that, ZD, the kol korei is working already! 😉
Falshe fish is better than the real thing.
Sometimes I refer to gefilte fish as falshe chicken.
ZD, you are still not understanding the purpose of the kol korei.
Open a shul near OO shuls
As mentioned above, there often are, and some used to be frum. It’s also not a contradiction to denouncing a deviant movement.
As far as day to day interactions, I try my best to treat everyone I meet with kindness and sensitivity. Affiliation does not affect that.
Agreed. I was very nice to the female conservative rabbi I met last week.
The difference between my approach and the Moetzes is I want to show people the postive points of view and not the negative points of view
How would you do that?
If we followed your approach of not condemning, the mostly innocent lay people would never know that they are following leaders and a movement who are outside of the pale. Now they are given a fair chance to rejoin Orthodoxy.
If you “don’t do” links, quote.
Once again, you are denying something you said in black and white. Once again, I’ll quote your own words: If you are not conveying defense of Hashem’s Torah on your words than you haven’t accomplished anything.
ZD, there are plenty of regular, frum shuls, of many types. It’s not that they haven’t been exposed to normative Judaism; they have rejected it. In fact, two of the shuls Avram mentioned used to be frum.
Syag, please link, but either way, that’s not his main argument. If you want to discuss his secondary arguments, perhaps you want to comment on his opinion that the Moetzes issued this kol korei not l’shem shomayim, but as a diversion from its own issues.
I disagree strongly with your implied opinion that we don’t need to reject this movement for our own sakes, and for the sake of the future.
Syag, I don’t think it’s about swaying the leadership, or even the laypeople. It’s about defining what is clearly unacceptable. The benefit of doing so won’t be noticeable today, but is important for future generations.
ZD wasn’t talking about leitzanus, he immediately objected to the kol korei itself.
I do not believe that swaying the Open Orthodox leadership back into the fold was the intention of the kol korei.
Precisely.
Really, all this talk about kiruv is on the wrong thread. The YCT people are not tinokos shenishbu with whom kiruv works. I’m all for kiruv, but this is not about that. It is about denouncing a deviant movement whose leaders, and at this point the talmidim as well, are corrupting the Torah. They don’t need to be taught the beauty of Torah and mitzvos. They know what they think of as Torah and mitzvos. They keep Shabbos, they daven three times a day, they don’t eat chazzer, etc. They end up corrupting hslachah in important ways, but at its root, it’s the wrong and dangerous hashkafos which are the problem.
Then neither the nimshol nor the moshol are correct.
YCT people aren’t flies.
Can YCT people drink their own wine?
Francorachel3, you’re making the same mistake I made >2 years ago.
Wherein popa uses whereas.
they pose no threat to charedi judaism at all.
So? They pose a threat to mislead frum Yidden, and they distort the Torah. Those are big enough reasons to protest.
ZD, that story has nothing to do with not drinking a kofer’s wine.
It depends why he was against them.
If you could see his signature, would you know that he signed it?
1) Conversation in the Womb – Journeys
2) Ahavas Yisroel (Yiddish song from Efshar L’takein)- MBD
3) Toda – Benny Friedman
The word borchu is loshon tzivui. He is instructing the listeners to “bless” Hashem. Since “blessing” Hashem means to recognize and declare that He is the source of all blessing, it follows that “borchu” means that.
(Perhaps I should have written that the translation is to “declare” (rather than use the word “recognize”) Hashem as the source of all blessing
You (pl.) should recognize Hashem as the source of all blessing.
Lol
I believe this bump is on behalf of the entire coffee room.
That doesn’t mean he changed his mind, it could just mean the kanoim misunderstood him or disagreed with NC even for OTD.
“??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???” doesn’t sound like he changed his mind.
I’m sure Sam didn’t mean them…
I don’t think along those lines.
???”? on the ???? of ??? ?’ ?????? in ???? ?????.
there are those who say that historically, yiru eineinu was instituted to help out the latecomers come for tefillah b”tzibur. Since the Gaon eliminated this Ashkenazic practice, it is unlikely that he was concerned with latecomers, at least according to this explanation.
Interesting, but not at all muchrach. There are latecomers and there are latecomers. It takes a minute of tardiness to miss Borchu, but it takes a few to say Yir’u Eineinu.
There are other possible chillukim as well.
Sam, R’ Dovid didn’t know that?