Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Oy, I’m so sorry… HaMokom y’nachem eschem…
Okay, now the longer version:
I took no offense, I thought you were just being passionate about your opinion. I hope my responses, which were supposed to just address your points, didn’t come across as offensive. I didn’t mean to imply that you thought I don’t respect women, but I think the OP does imply that this is the issue with chareidim not having female MKs, and it’s dead wrong.
I hope you have a better week this week.
Although for the most part, halachah does work from the earlier sources on down, very methodically, it’s a mistake to think that Yiddishkeit or even halachah always works this way.
Just a couple of examples from recent CR discussions: zilzul Shabbos/uvdin d’chol can often be impossible to define or parameterize, yet the concept exists. So how does it get decided? Well, the Chazon Ish says it’s up to the gedolei hador of each dor (and despite Sam’s disclaimer, this is mainstream thought).
Tznius is this way even in dress, which does have certain specific guidelines, but there are still breaches which may not fall out of any technical definition (I don’t want to get specific).
Tznius in action is probably even more difficult to draw a specific line for, but certain things most definitely are improper without a specific source, especially since new situations arise in every generation.
See the source cited by PAA for learned, scholarly women, in which a couple of cases were cited in which women taught men. Yet, they were in a different room/behind a mechitzah.
Is there a specific halachah that a man can’t see a woman while saying a shiur? No, but tznius dictates a certain protocol regardless.
Does being an MK constitute a bigger breach of tznius than saying a shiur to men without a curtain? I think it might. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, there’s an additional factor of a woman in such a public position reinforcing the view of a woman’s role as career oriented, at the expense of her role taking care of her family.
Luckily, though, I’m not the one deciding, and when dealing with the charedi political parties, it is their gedolim who decide, but I think it is a quite understandable decision.
I don’t have time right now for the full response that your post deserves, but three main points:
1) It’s all good
2) Feel better
3) No, but it sometimes is that way.
He should bet that mapis mursa is assur without tzaar, then he’ll have fifteen selaim to work with.
Meh. Same priciple. But you really convinced me by citing a fictional (I assume) TV show (I assume).
FTR, I vaccinate my kids.
Ivory, why do say “blindly”? I personally haven’t researched it, but the responsible medical professionals I’ve spoken to have, and are staunchly in favor.
DY responded to you explaining that point.
No, I didn’t.
Ubiquitin did not fardrei the Rema, but the issue is whether Chanukah gifts are rational, to apply the Rema to it.
I merely pointed out that the determining factor isn’t whether gifts in general are rational, but rather, whether Chanukah gifts in particular are. They very well might be, though, and then I in fact found that the Avnei Yoshfeh in fact holds that way. So, as per the Rema, which is completely relevant, it would be muttar.
Lol, I know what he said, but I don’t think that applies here. I think the Kosher Lamp is more convenient than a homemade contraption.
JT, if you think there’s enough of a market for it, you can go ahead and develop it. Personally, I don’t think there’s enough of a market for it to be worth it.
ZD, then how do you explain the product’s success?
Yes, but that would still make such a product less marketable.
Let’s go through the issues with mass marketing such technology. First, we have to figure what the cost would be to develop the product, and then to produce and install it. I don’t have a number, but it would probably be expensive on both ends.
Then we have to figure how many people would buy it. I don’t specifically know that either, but we can eliminate many. We can eliminate anyone who has a dishwasher. We can eliminate anyone who has two sinks. We can eliminate anyone who, despite having one sink and no dishwasher, doesn’t generally leave their dishes to pile up. We can eliminate anyone who is uncomfortable with washing milchig and fleishig dishes together in hot water, one factor being that it’s not l’chol hadeios.
Figure that most homeowners have either two sinks and/or at least one dishwasher, and figure that most people would probably not invest the hundreds of dollars it would probably cost into a rented home.
I think there’s no money to be made on such a product, so nobody developed it. Shabbos clocks, on the other hand, are not even a specifically Jewish product, and they serve a more important and widely useful function. Even the Kosher Lamp, which is marketed to shomer Shabbos people, is more useful, and more affordable, to a much larger group of consumers than would be a kli shlishi sink, in my opinion.
Don’t take it personally.
It should be assur. Saying they never included mapis mursa in the issur is a big meiheicha teisi. You are making a pesach; that is boneh (d’rabbanan). They didn’t make a separate issur called mapis mursa. It’s only muttar because of tzaar, and when there is tzaar.
The Satmar Rov held that way.
What a coincidence- I was even mechaven to the typos!
Funny thing is, in four years from now, someone is going to vaguely remember such a quote, search for it, and think it was me.
Some
Only if they’re late
Agree with popa
Agree with popa, but would add, also the George Foreman.
It doesn’t apply to babysitters (in your scenario) because it is your decision, and the assumption is that your decision is solely based on who can best do the job.
Now, certainly that should be true for public office as well, but it clearly isn’t always.
Do you think it’s coincidence that the US hasn’t had a female president, and has had only one black president? I think we made a decision on the current president based on race rather than qualification, and probably in the past, there could have been better presidents than we had, had race and gender not been a factor.
So, while I agree that you can’t argue about a particular person that she has a right to be selected, it might be fair for a society to make judgments based on the broader picture that a class has been discriminated against.
And you didn’t answer my question, but that really gets to the heart of it. The unspoken accusation here is that there are no female MKs in the chareidi parties because chareidim don’t respect women.
Your argument, that nobody has a right to a seat, doesn’t address that. Mine, that there are legitimate reasons unrelated to respect, does.
How about because they don’t like Jews?
WS, I’m not trying to evade anything. There’s obviously a balance between need, and level of compromise in tznius. We have already compromised a great deal in kol k’vuda bas melech, and concurrently, in the mother’s availability to her children, but only because it’s needed. Meiheicha teisi to take it further for no reason? But you knew that.
It’s interesting that you use the term open-minded. I think we’re past that. Open-minded is supposed to mean that one is open to new ideas, but equality is no longer a new idea, it’s for the most part accepted as the norm in Western culture.
The idea that someone can respect women (as I think I, for example do), yet think there is a legitimate concern and reason to discriminate for certain things, is something which maybe you need to open your mind to.
Hard to find, because he was using his other screen name, but here it is:
See also:
And stam, for the thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-does-modern-yeshivish-mean/page/2#post-168322
So is that a no?
Is that a yes?
I wasn’t supposed to take them personally?
1) So you’d be okay with a company refusing to hire you simply because you’re Jewish?
2) Odu li mihas to my second point above, that even if YOU don’t have the right to the job or even an interview, THEY don’t have the right to discriminate.
I would just like to point out that you are making a gross insult against Torah learning. “The RIshonim employ Lashon that to us is misleading.”??!! That’s a joke. Why ever learn? It should be Assur to open a Rishon by your logic unless you are a Gadol, because you know that you will potentially distort the Torah to the opposite of what it means. It’s ridiculous. It’s absurd. Sit down and learn the Rishonim. They are very clear in what they say. And we have Achronim to point out when they are potentially apparently being Soseir themselves and what the potential reasons for that are. But the RIshonim mean the opposite of what they say? It’s a joke. Go invent your own Torah and claim that’s what a Rishon really means because, after all, we can’t know what it means. (Unless we’re a “Gadol” and have “Da’as Torah”. But how could we get that in the first place if we misunderstood all the Rishonim until we achieved that point.) Honestly, you have nothing to add to this discussion. Say you don’t know enough to discuss this Sugya. That’s fine. But don’t go around throwing made-up axioms into a Sugya that do nothing but distort actual Talmud Torah.
Because you don’t use emoticons?
Why is the government’s discrimination better? And no, I don’t have the right to be in the Senate, but I probably should have the right to run for it, assuming everything equal aside from my race/ethnicity/religion etc., and certainly, the government, or even a political party, shouldn’t have the right to discriminate for that.
I have no issue with the chareidi parties not running female candidates; in fact, I think it’s correct. I just don’t like your argument.
Popa, how would that be different than if a minority group would be excluded from serving the Senate or House of Representatives (which I assume you would oppose)?
I suppose you could say that in that case, we, the people, would have a more limited choice, but wouldn’t you also oppose the discrimination aspect?
Some hold yad soledes bo does transfer blios even in a kli shlishi, plus there’s a slight risk of b’ein remaining on a dish.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25074&st=&pgnum=241
For the sink, I suppose you could adjust the water temperature to below yad soledes bo, but would anyone really be comfortable washing them together anyhow?
As far as the oven, steam isn’t the problem with davar yavesh anyhow, and you wouldn’t really get out of reicha issues, or potential spills and splatters.
The self cleaning oven is pretty good kashrus technology, as is the light box, and probably a dozen more items not presently coming to mind.
Well, you wanted someine to correct you if you were wrong..
Bygirl93, that is not the only reason to get married.
How does that explain the imbalance?
Should I Google my wife?
Thank you for sharing.
I’m not avoiding your point, the issue to me is tznius (probably not technically serarah, I’m with Sam on that).
I think you are clouding the issue with a meaningless comparison to burkas.
Okay, it’s fine.
Kind of depends on how much you need the money, and on how they compare in terms of how they affect future job prospects.
I like #12.
It’s not good if you have a lot more report card quotes than ???? ?????.
I haven’t been quoted for a while. Have I become civil? I’ll have to fix that.
Or, clearly, any case where the motivation isn’t pure.
????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???
???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????’ ????? ?’ ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?’ ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ????’ ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ????’
???? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ???’ ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????
?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???????
WS, I don’t know what makes you dismiss the possibility that what you call a visceral reaction isn’t motivated by the same opinion which is actually the reason it’s not been done before.
That is the very definition of mo machmir
It probably is MO machmir, but the very definition? I think the term is used more broadly than that.
WS, this a lot more public. Can I tell you where the line is precisely? No, but there’s got to be one, right?
I think you emphasized the wrong part.
So far, popa’s definition is the most accurate (but I don’t know what hajj is).