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A kallah without a diamond ring is like a chosson without a diamond ring. Some are machmir on the kiddushin ring as well.
I tell all of my sons-in-law that if they want me to buy them a chosson shas, they have to buy one for me as well. Sure, I’m supposed to marry my daughters off to talmidei chachomim, but they’re also each supposed to marry a bas talmid chacham!
I’m still waiting for Goq to ask what centers and defensemen think about geirus.
You’ll have to find me a source for that so that we can put into it into context and discuss it.
So what you’re saying is that order must be maintained regardless. That makes sense, no?
Depends who’s asking.
Thanks for getting the thread back on track. It was enough already with the looking up teshuvos and learning business.
Rabbiofberlin, absolutely, they are there for the absolute minimum time, and only see her head. Even this is a breach of tznius, which R’ Moshe writes is only permissible because there is no other option. My point was simply that they are in the room at the actual moment of tevila, not outside the room.
I don’t know what you read on the internet, but likely it was misinformation.
I actually opened the thread to do just that, and saw your post. However, a correction: all three dayanim were in the room, but only one saw her submerge her head.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=359&hilite=
He is only mattir, as you point out, b’dieved, and only when the dayanim were in the room.
Rabbi Avraham Gordimer wrote an article excoriating Rabbi Fox for his teshuvah on a number of levels. The one point I don’t agree with him on is his limiting the heter to where one dayan actually saw. The case was in fact that way, but R’ Moshe’s reasoning wouldn’t seem to require it.
I think ?? ???? he put himself in the category of ??? ???? ??? ???, and I’m not sure why I should assume there’s even the slightest level of sincerity here.
The requirements of eidim and hasra’ah are so limiting, that one would have to put effort into being subject to malkos or misas beis din. It stands to reason, then, that perhaps the Torah prescribes these punishments more to teach us the severity of the issurim than to actually carry them out.
I am guessing this is what HaLeiVi meant, not that they are limited to a specific culture.
Akuperma, what about in chutz laaretz?
I was surprised (and aghast) to read that in many places, the bais din is actually in the mikvah room. That clearly would be wrong.
See Shulchan Aruch (and if you are still unclear, see the IG”M as well).
It is clear in S.A. that the dayanim need to be present, but that they see only her head.
AIY, of course they’re not using the term “discomfort overriding halachah”. They never admit to overriding halachah, yet that’s what they’re doing. The idea of trying to find a way out of a male beis din overseeing tevilas giyores is not new, but the halachah has been clearly established that it’s required despite the issues of tznius and discomfort, and no new stories or political gain will change this. Anyone trying to change the practice, whether they admit it or not (and of course they won’t), is trying to override halachah.
And popa is right. The despicable behavior this fellow is accused of had nothing to do with his function on a beis din, it had to do with his administrative function. Most dayanim don’t have such access.
He calls it a safeika d’dinah
Yes, as it would be if there were no beis din whatsoever involved in the tevila, because it’s a machlokes Rishonim if that works b’dieved (see Shulchan Aruch).
It’s about legitimacy. They need to assert some type of control or influence in being able to decide who is Jewish in order to feel legitimately Jewish.
ROB, he rejects the tzdodim l’hatir unambiguously. For Lipman to use R’ Moshe as a tzad l’hokel is outrageous.
There’s no question that, despite the way you describe the situation, there’s still discomfort. In fact, R’ Moshe says,
“???? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ????”.
AIY, gavra did not dismiss her discomfort (nor should it be dismissed, as you correctly point out that tznius is indeed a factor, as R’ Moshe says as well).
He dismissed her comfort overriding halachah, which is what these people want. They are not discussing, b’timimus, if there is a legitimate workaround. R’ Moshe did that already, and dismissed it as invalid.
You continue to connect this to a different, horrible story, but that was an issue of who ran the mikva, not who was on the beis din overseeing geirus.
How is it possible to honestly read R’ Moshe, who says even b’dieved it must be redone, and based on that, go ahead and suggest that it become l’chatchilah?
Sam, read the teshuvah. It should take you less than five minutes. He even proves that it is an absolute necessity because otherwise, in the interest of tznius we would have found another way.
No, I remember from then.
No, one alleged creep taking advantage of his position has no bearing on how the process should take place. It only highlights the need for oversight, but not to ch”v alter halachah.
I linked to R’ Moshe’s teshuvah. It is clear that Lipman is making things up, and, as Gavra agreed, even if he were being honest, he has no business getting involved.
Yes, I misunderstood your reference. There is still nothing to learn from his falsehood.
I liked the way they proved popa was biased and his edits vandalism because he called this thread “Trolling Wikipedia”, and popa had to explain that we use the word troll differently here on the CR.
Given the recent unfortunate events in Washington, DC.
If you put a bit of thought unto it, you’ll realize that they’re not really related.
if there are poskim on the level of Rav Shmuel Salant, Rav Ben-Zion Meir Chai Uziel, and Rav Moshe Feinstein, Zichronam Levracha, who have Piskei Halacha on the issue, there is what to talk about.
That’s a big “if”, and regardless, this is not how halachah gets decided.
Chacham
No, and not a tam or eino yodeia lish’ol either.
Because we are issuing a psak which will lead to a person who is factually a chalal doing avodah on Shabbos.
You could make a similar argument for eishes ish; if beis din would be mattir her, there would be no actual issur, yet we do, when issuing the psak, take into account that there’s an issur s’kilah.
PAA, popa introduced his comment by saying it makes no sense.
Even in the first approach, there’s no reason to say your chiddush – Rabeinu Tam could simply have disagreed with the M”S’s assertion that we’re not concerned about the eventuality of a chalal who will not be revealed as such doing avodah.
As far as my teirutz, I was m’dayek the lashon of Abaye and Rava, not of R’ Chanina.
Why must you say even before Moshiach? Moshiach can come today.
My alternative ????? is that ?”? holds that ?? ????? ?????? is a general ????? which doesn’t depend on outside circumstances (the ??”?).
Write “Miami Chanuka” in the search box.
OURTorah, going anywhere there will be women dressed immodestly requires “a heter”, meaning it is only permitted if relatively unavoidable (gazing is prohibited regardless; I’m referring to going to such a location).
And still funnier is calling something said on the CR a psak.
Aseh of taking care of yourself is doche lav of lo sasuru.
Lol
few could mean one
And blue can mean yellow, and kosher can mean treif.
if you’re makpid
Well, if not, I’m sure there are plenty of gyms available at all times of day. But that’s not what the OP was asking.
Pretty big difference between “none” and “very few”, wouldn’t you agree.
I think the Har Habayis issue is an example of how the Zionism issue is still relevant:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/har-habayis-debate-baryonim-of-our-times
Why do I feel like all of you belong in Passaic or Baltimore (if they actually exist)?
You made a kiddush Hashem.
If that one bad Rebbe teaches the same grade every year it means most of the boys will have that Rebbe and the entire well is spoiled.
Even the worst rebbeim don’t usually have a negative impact on most of the class. The problem is usually limited to the more challenging students.
No, Syag, I didn’t say you made it up, and I’ll thank you to not assume that just because in my experience it’s not common (although I don’t know if I’d use Lior’s numbers) I might be “a father who poo-poos your kids claims of being hurt by saying he just doesn’t understand discipline”.
It’s not a matter of “sweeping the issue under the rug”. Such an issue did come up once, and and I’ll tell you, it was a very difficult balancing act to try to maintain my son’s sense of respect for rebbeim (because if he was told that he can be chutzpadik to this rebbe, he would likely maintain that attitude toward other rebbeim in the future) yet validating his legitimate sense of injustice at how the rebbe acted
Yet, this was a relative rarity in my sons yeshiva, and a lapse in conduct by a rebbe (in an extremely difficult circumstance) who had an otherwise distinguished chinuch career.
So if you don’t mind, I’ll express here my very legitimate perspective which despite not being Pollyannaish is an overall very positive one shared by many in my community with whom I’ve discussed this.
Thank you, catch yourself, for injecting a dose of reason and reality to the discussion. Your perspective rings true to me. Sure, I’ve seen a few rebbeim who have had an occasional lapse of judgement, but it’s the minority even for them, and they are the minority. The vast majority of my sons’ rebbeim over the years have been wonderful, and the rebbeim I’ve seen from other vantage points have also been dedicated and caring – the farthest thing from abusive.
May Hashem give you the strength you need to get through this.
Why only a k’feila?
I’m guessing there’s a middle ground where it’s not ideal but it’s ok.
I agree that certain types of music fit into that category. But if that’s what’s being discussed, I wouldn’t agree to the statement, “Doesnt make me less frum though”.
It should be noted, that although vogue didn’t specify which music she listens to so this isn’t directed at her, much of the non-Jewish music being produced today clearly crosses the line of “not ideal” and is m’gareh yetzer hora and is outright assur.
Eek, How would you know something is nosein taam if you can’t taste it?
Be m’sha’er based on shishim, but you’re not allowed to taste it.
Rebyidd, correct, so to know if something is acceptable, you’re relying on someone who likely lost their sensitivity by reading unscreened material.
Vogue, do you think there’s something wrong with listening to non-Jewish music? If not, you don’t need to justify it with your schedule.
If yes, your schedule doesn’t justify it.
You left out, “and doesnt impart any non Torahdik haskafos”.
How would you know it doesn’t fail in any of these categories without reading it?
“Just” means that punishment is deserved. Well, ??? ???? ????, so every punishment is deserved, and it’s futile to argue that our sense of justice is more correct than Hashem’s.
Hashem is “good” – the entire universe was made so that he can bestow god upon his creations, and the ultimate good is reward which comes through difficulty, through achievement, and at risk of falling and suffering consequences. We may not prefer it, and in fact, Chazal said “??? ?? ???? ??? ????”, but it’s still ultimately for our benefit.
And of course it gives perspective – if not a perspective on any particular individual, on the direction of klal Yisroel, which unquestionably changed.
Again, I haven’t read the book, and I’m not here to defend it or the title, but I don’t think you are correct to completely dismiss the basic argument.
I mean what I said. Hashem gives each of us a different tafkid, and treats us differently. “Not fair – why cant I be rich, or smart, or a kohen, or have leadership abilities like so and so” is not a proper attitude, and neither should we expect to have the same comforts, or, lo aleiny, tzaros.
000646: Rav Miller, nor anyone else, ever claimed to be able to fully explain tzaddik v’ra lo. He merely gave some perspective.
Also, importantly, the concept of “fairness” is not one found in the Torah, and it is wrong to ask from foreign concepts.
The Rebbe also said not to argue with people about zionism.
HaLeiVi, you mean like this?:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/petition-to-get-daasyochid-unblocked-1