GefilteFish

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  • in reply to: Bein Hametzarim Trivia Question #2111890
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @rebEliezer @menachemShmei
    You both seem to have looked into this topic well.

    I am aware that shitas HaRambam is that the Beis Hamikdash will be built by people (seemingly Moshiach).
    And you brought a source to explain how the “beis Hamikdash of fire” will come down after the physical one is built.

    What does the Rambam do with the gemara in Sukkah (also rosh Hashana) that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai forbade eating “chodosh” the entire 16th of Nissan, since there’s a concern that the beis Hamikdosh will have returned and people won’t have found out about it?
    The gemara is clear that the beis hamikdosh will come back at night time (or perhaps right before shkiya on the 15th of nissan).
    Rashi and Tosfos (and others) point out how the beis hamikdosh will come back at night time, and that’s not a problem since the mitzva to build it during the day only applies to the first batei mikdosh which was built by people; but the third one will come down in fire, and thus can come at night as well.

    You’ve explained how the Rambam will learn the medrash about the mikdash of fire; but there’s still the clear issue of rav Yochanan ben Zakkai’s takana.
    He is very clear that there’s reason to assume the beis hamikdosh will be present on the 16th of nissan even though there was absolutely no mikdash there when pesach started a day earlier.

    This is one of the major sources for those rishonim who argue on the Rambam.
    How does he Rambam explain this gemara?

    (I’m sure there are mefarshim who address this topic, I just haven’t seen them. You have studied this much more than I have, so maybe you’ve come across the answer?)

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @fakenews for a moment I thought you would be serious and actually share where I could find the article.
    But then I looked at your username and realized that I had been trolled…

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I’ve asked a few people, and they’ve all said that they remember seeing it on YWN.
    Plus, a couple of people even remember seeing it on other news sources.
    They remember the same picture- a night picture of the intersection with #45 bus in the background.

    Yet no one can find it on the internet.
    Is there some sort of media blackout about this?

    It’s so weird!

    in reply to: רחמנות on a mass murderer #2107980
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s worth noting the contrast between Divine punishment and an earthly court.

    It’s brought down that the Beis Din shel Maala only punishes someone once they turn 20.
    This is in contrast with the beis din shel matah, which will execute a youth once he is Bar Mitzvah.

    The reason is because the Heavenly Court can judge a person’s intent, mental state etc. A person hasn’t fully finished developing until 20 years old; so the Heavenly Court can take those factors into account and delay or mitigate his punishment.

    In contrast, a beis din is all about the action. If a person committed an aveirah which carries the death penalty, then (assuming witnesses hasraah etc.) we will kill him based on his actions.
    The fact that he struggled maturity wise is irrelevant down here. We need to put an end to these sorts of actions, and the Torah teaches us that the way to “eradicate the evil” is by executing the wicked.

    So while we could feel rachmanus for the sort of life the murderer has experienced, we still should execute him. The Rachmanus should not be a factor when establishing him punishment- even though it’s very possible that the Divine Court may take it into account.

    in reply to: Neo Orthodoxy #2103514
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @crazy_horse
    I also think there is a major need to pay attention to nuance.

    There are multiple examples of differences between today’s orthodoxy and previous generations.
    They can be categorized in (at least) the following way:

    1) Instead of local shtetl rabbonim, we now have major intercommunal poskim
    A shtetl rav has his kehilla, and could posken for them. It didn’t matter if other communities were more strict.
    But today, a va’ad hakashrus (for example) needs to make food acceptable for a wide range of customers.
    That might require combining certain chumros, in order that all kehillos are willing to use the hechsher.
    This is also the crux of the issue regarding women’s pictures in religious publications.
    Since a sizable part of Klal Yisrael believe that showing women’s pictures in magazines is a problem of tznius, the magazine leave such pictures out in order to market to those communities.
    Thus even communities which don’t have an issue with women’s pictures, still end up with “censored” magazines.

    2) People are more knowledgeable.
    There were certain areas where halacha was unfortunately not being kept in Europe, even though there was no dispute about it.
    The classic example of this is regarding women covering their hair.
    There’s no heter for a married woman to not cover her hair.
    Today, we have managed to raise generations of people who care about keeping these areas of halacha.

    3) Relying on extenuating circumstances.
    In europe, owing to many factors, often a minority opinion was accepted- not because poskim really held of it, but because the situation was “shas hadechak”.
    Once we are no longer in such a “shas hadechak” often times those customs should be updated.
    An example of this is chadash.
    It’s not a question of being “frummer” than previous generations; it’s a question of acknowledging that the circumstances which justified relying on a minority opinion don’t exist anymore, and therefore the halacha should reflect that.
    I once heard a shiur from Rav Hershel Schechter describing Modern Orthodoxy. He defined it as recognizing that circumstances have changed, and thus we need to apply the halacha accordingly.
    Even though in Europe halacha alef applied, given today’s circumstances sif beis applies.

    This is an area where we can have a machlokes haposkim whether a prior hanhaga was based solely on shas hadechak (etc) and thus should be changed today, or whether such a hanhaga actually was accepted as the psak and thus can be continued.
    (Mishna Berurah often goes with the first approach, Aruch Hashulchan and Rav Moshe often go with the second.)

    I think these three categories are perfectly understandable and not controversial.

    4) Making new “Accepted guidelines” based on current situations
    This would include new concepts such as expecting all bachurim to stay in yeshiva until at least 18, and preferably staying in Kollel as well, instead of having most frum kids start to apprentice by age 12.
    This is a reaction to a variety of situations- the lack of yiras shomayim on the street and thus the need to be in yeshiva for longer; the fact that the average kid is anyway learning other subjects, and no longer is it acceptable to apprentice preteens; the amount of distractions in today’s world which makes learning harder, and thus requires more time.

    This sort of discussion can be questionable, and different communities could have different stances. This might be what you are considering a “new” phenomenon which should be observed.

    in reply to: Neo Orthodoxy #2103508
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @crazy_horse
    The term “Neo-orthodox” refers to a movement of Christianity.
    According to the Wikipedia page,
    “Neo-orthodoxy strongly emphasises the revelation of God by God as the source of Christian doctrine.[4] This is in contrast to natural theology, whose proponents include Thomas Aquinas, who states that knowledge of God can be gained through a combination of observation of nature and human reason; the issue remains a controversial topic within some circles of Christianity to this day.”

    In other words, It’s insisting that revelation (what we express as maamad har sinai and Kabolas Hatorah) is more important than “human reason” and philosophizing.

    As applied to Judaism, it would seem to be the approach of Rav Hirsch against that of (lehavdil) Moses mendelsohn.
    And today, it would be those who follow “traditional Orthodox Judaism” vs the “Rational orthodox” or the “Open Orthodox.”

    As Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik zatza”l expressed numerous times, Judaism requires surrendering to Hashem- to recognize that our thoughts and desires count only up to a certain point, but ultimately must give way to the Truth as revealed by Hashem.

    So both Modern Orthodox (as expressed through talmidim of Rav J.B. like Rav Willig shlita and others) and “Chareidi Orthodox” are both examples of Neo-Orthodoxy, regardless of the specific positions of “being frummer than previous generations.”

    It seems like you are taking the concept of Neo-Orthodoxy but redefining the term. I’m not sure what you gain by doing so; if anything, it would seem to add confusion.
    Perhaps keep the term according to the original meaning, and create a new term for the situation you are describing?

    in reply to: Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom #2103189
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @the_silent_majority

    Could you provide a source to your claim that heter mesh rabbonim is used in cases when a man is refusing to give a get?

    In my (admittedly limited) experience, I’ve only come across it used in the opposite way.
    It’s a mechanism to prevent a man from becoming an aguna when his wife can’t or won’t accept a get.
    Cases where the wife went crazy, is in a coma, or just refuses to receive a get (based on another Cherem dRabbeinu gershon not to divorce a wife against her will).

    I furthermore had heard that in these cases, the man gives a get to his wife via beis din; and as soon as she is able or willing to accept it, it becomes valid and she’s divorced.

    Your presentation of what HMR is used far seems extremely different than what I’ve encountered, and I’d be interested to see some evidence of your example.

    in reply to: Supreme Court Rules – States Can Ban Abortion #2101117
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    There’s a book “The Value of Human Life: Contemporary Perspectives in Jewish Medical Ethics” (Feldheim, 2010).
    It’s the transcribed lectures from the first International Conference on Jewish Medical Ethics in Switzerland, 2008.
    Rabbi Moshe Hauer was one of the speakers there, and he discussed some of the “Jewish medical Ethics” involved in organ transplants and determining “end of life”.
    In the middle of his discussion, he writes (pg. 62):

    “…So let us talk about the world going mad.
    In the seventies there was another major medical ethics issue: abortion.
    That was the decade when Roe. V. Wade became law in the United States, making abortion legal upon demand.
    At that time, Rav Moshe Feinstein, whose opinions on brain death are questioned and disputed so much, expressed an unambiguous opinion on abortion. In fact, many would consider his opinion extreme.
    Rav Feinstein considers abortion to be murder. The Talmud says there is no capital punishment for it, but in his view it is murder. He permits it only when there is a real danger to the mother. He wrote a responsum to this effect and in the responsum he writes some very unusual and surprising things. It seems clear to all who study it that he was single-mindedly pursuing a pre-determined conclusion, namely, that abortion is murder. How can he do that? Where is the objective scholarship?

    Let me say something a little bit heretical: Rav Moshe Feinstein was looking at a world going mad. How many times over this weekend have you heard the term “slippery slope?” I would suggest that if he were writing his responsum on abortion in old community in Russia in the 1930s, he would likely have said that abortion is not the right thing and is not allowed under most circumstances, but may be allowed under certain specific conditions.
    But here he was in the United States, and the world around him was sliding toward a free-wheeling culture of abortion on demand. At that moment, every part of Rav Feinstein said, “Oh my gosh, where are we headed?” And so he came out with the statement that abortion is murder.

    We call our great rabbis gedolim. We also call adults gedolim, as we call kids that become bar mitzvah gedolim relative to ketanim, to small children. Developmental psychology teaches that when a child is very small- a katan- he sees only a small field around him and in front of him: the breast from which he eats.
    As he gets bigger, he doesn’t just see the breast from which he feeds, but he sees his mother, and then he sees the family, and then he sees the community, and the he sees society. That is what it means to grow into a gadol. A gadol is not just looking at the mishnah in Ohalos; he is not just seeing the small picture. He is seeing a big picture, a world of context. And the world is going mad….”

    in reply to: Supreme Court Rules – States Can Ban Abortion #2100730
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @Avira
    It’s worth noting that when I was learning in a halacha kollel here in Eretz Yisrael, and we had various rabbonim come and talk with us about practical topics, a few mentioned that most poskim take on the Tzitz Eliezer’s psak over Rav Moshe’s by abortion.

    There’s a great article written by Rabbi Moshe Hauer (a musmach from ner Yisroel- maybe not the most chareidi Rav, but definitely mainstream) who explains that Rav Moshe’s psak is quite unusual.
    Unlike his other psakim, here it seems like Rav moshe first decided that abortion is assur and then wrote a teshuva to justify it.

    Rabbi Hauer wrote his personal hargasha- that Rav Moshe’s impetus for writing the teshuva was he saw the tremendous slippery slope America was falling down. He saw how abortion was becoming very common, much more than it should be, and so he went “overboard” so to speak to reaffirm that it’s assur.

    While this is just Rabbi Hauer’s opinion, I’ve heard other rabbonim basically saying the same thing. The Tzitz Eliezer’s mehalech is a more simpler approach and is more accepted by poskim- though perhaps they are not as lenient as he would have been.

    in reply to: Visiting the Har Habayis #2098666
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Where do we find that rebbi akiva et al went up to Har Habayis?

    I’m aware of the gemara at the end of makkos which states that they were overlooking har habayis.
    That’s where they saw a fox in the kodesh kedoshim; the other rabbonim cried in sadness, but rebbi akiva laughed (since he felt it indicated that G-d would fulfill His prophesy Abbott rebuilding yerushalayim as well. )

    Is there a specific source indicated that they actually went up on Har Habayis?

    in reply to: GAS PRICES #2098624
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    As @jackk said, there are lots of drilling and fracking permits already issued, which could increase the totally capacity for American energy production.

    The biggest complaint against Biden (in this regard) is that he openly has been supportive of the “progressive” agenda including posing for “green” energy way too fast.

    While he’s calling for more production right now, he’s made it clear that as soon as he can, he is throwing the whole fossil fuel industry away.
    This attitude of his, starting with that symbolic first day executive order against Keystone pipeline, has disincentivized investments in new drilling projects. Who wants to invest in something the government has declared war on?

    And this is not hyperbole.
    Remember his nominee for one of the governmental financial positions (maybe in the Federal reserve?)

    This Russian, communist-educated woman openly stayed that bankrupting the fossil fuels industries was a necessary step towards implementing “green”.

    Even after Biden found out about this, he still kept her as his nominee, until it was clear she would lose the vote.

    So ye

    in reply to: Visiting the Har Habayis #2098362
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s also worth noting an additional concept which is left out of most discussions:
    Going up to har habayis is a question of kares.
    We find that when dealing with kares, especially in areas where there is room to make mistakes, we go overboard to prevent the slightest chance.

    Thus chometz on Pesach is prohibited b’mashehu, even the smallest amount, because consuming it incurs kares.

    Likewise, we put tremendous safeguards in place when a woman is a nida, in order to prevent her and her husband from inadvertently stumbling on this severe prohibition.
    And the Torah prohibited Yichud with a forbidden woman- one of the very few examples of a siyag min hatorah- because of the issur kares involved.

    When we are dealing with a shailoh of kares, and it’s an issue which is given over to regular individuals (as opposed to specific gedolei yisrael who are known for bein yirei shomayim), the proper thing to do is be strict.

    There’s no chiyuv to go up to har habayis, and it’s not even clear there is an advantage to going up (instead of just going to the kosel) without having a beis hamikdash to do avodah.

    Most of the reasons I’ve seen for going up fall in to one of two categories:
    1) emotional, poetic claims- “AH, how amazing it is to finally be back on top after 2000 years! You can feel the kedusha here!”
    2) nationalistic claims- we need to assert our sovereignty over Har Habayis, and the way to do so is by going up

    The first reason is nonsense. Poetry has no place in halacha. And emotional claims of “feeling” kedusha are made up. (Almost) nobody can truly ‘feel’ kedusha!
    (There’s the famous story of the woman who came to Rav. J.B. Soloveitchik asking permission to start wearing a tallis. He told her that she shouldn’t just “jump” into the mitzvah; she should start wearing it without the strings for a while, and them come back to discuss if she is ready to put the strings on.
    After a while she came back, and he asked her about her experience. She said “Rabbi, I can feel the holiness in the tallis. I’m truly ready to put the strings on!”
    He answered her, “A tallis without the strings is nothing more than a shawl. If you can feel so much holiness wearing a simple shawl, you don’t need to start putting on tzitzis!”)

    nationalistic claims are also problematic. Where do we find that we bend the halacha because “nationalism” plays a part?
    (We do find cases where chazal permitted certain things, where not doing those things would result in Jews losing out on owning Eretz Yisrael. But here the status quo is not being challenged by the arabs; we’re not in danger of losing control of Har Habayis, in the sense that chazal talk about.)

    in reply to: moshiach by 2030? #2098346
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s worth noting that Rav Yehuda Fetaya zatza”l, the famous mekubal from Bavel who passed away in 1940s in Eretz Yisrael, writes (in his Sefer Minchat Yehuda) that the years of Moshiach don’t count in the cheshbon.

    There will be 6000 years that the world will exist normally; the seventh year will be a shabbos, where the world will be spiritual (see there where he describes the process in depth); and in between will be the period of Moshiach, which could taken an indefinite period of time.

    He compares it to Aliyos of Shabbos.
    As he writes it, we can have 6 aliyos, then a whole bunch of “acharon” additional aliyos stuck in there, and then the “seventh” aliyah.
    The fact that additional aliyos were inserted doesn’t change the makeup of the 7 aliyos.
    He says it will be the same regarding moshiach; the years of moshiach don’t fit in to the normal 7000 year plan we are used to hearing about.

    in reply to: BLM RIOTS VS. JAN. 6 PROTEST #2097874
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @N0 mesorah
    The problem with the term “mostly peaceful protest” is that it belies the reality most people were experiencing.

    When you’re scared to go outside because of the violence, when v you’re not allowed to go outside because the city issued a curfew, when the stores around you are looted, destroyed and torched, then you do care about the 90% of protests which were peaceful.

    I guarantee you- had the government cracked down on those violent protests (or at least strongly condemned them), and had the msm acknowledged them and called them out, and they would have stopped; then no one would be bothered by the majority of the peaceful ones.

    But when surrounded by violence, being bombarded by messaging about how peaceful “most” of it is, is pure gaslighting.

    And condemning republicans who supported the rally (though not the riots) on Jan 6th, without condemning the Democrats who supported the rioting- including actively raising bail for them!- is tremendous hypocrisy.

    in reply to: Recycling #2097872
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @N0 mesorah
    I’m not understanding what you’re saying to @avira.
    I get what he and yehudis are discussing; I’m familiar with both approaches, although avirah seems to be taking his position further than I’ve seen before. I need to think about his approach more, and look things up inside, before I respond to him.

    Yehudis’ s approach also is straightforward and not rlrevilutionary (according to that shita to which she is ascribing). If you believe that science is correct, and make a distinction between chazal’ s Torah and their observations, then of course we need to be more conscientious of the environment.

    But I’m not sure what you’re adding to the discussion.
    It sounds like you’re accusing avirah of not believing chazal and arbitrating truth. What do you mean by that? Isn’t he claiming that chazal is true? This is where I’m confused.

    in reply to: Mods? Mods? #2097698
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Hi,
    I’m still getting used to this platform.
    Is there a way to edit a post after submitting it?
    A couple times I’ve noticed that autocorrect has messed things up and I want to fix it.
    Thanks

    There is but it allowed some very ill people to submit disgusting novel peh in screen names and thread titles (with content only viewable and editable to you) We had to shut it off and now we’re stuck with this.

    in reply to: RBS Chutznik Oilam #2097696
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Rbs gimmel b does have a chassidishe chutznik oilam. Rav naftolu kornreich shlita admor of kossov vizhnitz is american, and I think I heard about more chutznikim there as well.
    There definitely are Yiddish speaking chadarim, and I’m pretty sure that there’s an English/Yiddish cheder in rbs beis though I don’t have specific info about it.

    in reply to: Using an Aeropress on Shabbos #2097694
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @Hello99
    Coffee grounds are a big machlokes haposkim.
    First off, they are roasted before grinding; we know the machlokes about bishul achar afiyah.
    Second, poskim discuss if it’s a food or a tavlin since can tavlin is permitted in a Klei sheini. See the ginas veradim who brings down this discussion.
    And then, some poskim (I think including chasam sofer) say that even if it is a food, it’s already considered edible before adding the water since if necessary people would eat it straight. Thus it for sure would not be kalei habishul. (Rav mordechai eliyahu zatza’l relied on this, since soldiers in the field ate Turkish coffee straight when they didnt have water).

    Plus, rav Moshe Feinstein zatza’l holds that in a Klei shlishi there’s no bishul even by kalei habishul, and the mishna berurah agrees in a case of bishul achar afiyah.

    Lemaaseh some poskim (especially, but not only, sefardim) allow it in a kli sheini; some allow irui kli sheini; and some are machmir even in a kli shlishi.

    So if the OP’ s rav told him he could rely on irui kli sheini, he definitely has what to rely on.

    in reply to: BLM RIOTS VS. JAN. 6 PROTEST #2097690
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @jackk could you clarify what is the meaning, and significance, of a constitutional crisis? I’m honestly not sure what to make of that term.
    My assumption is that even if the Jan 6th protesters had gotten pence to send the electors back to the state’s (or have the house vote in President) the democrats would have just challenged it in the supreme court.
    The supreme court would either have rejected it as unconstitutional (Which it seems pretty likely m); or, they would have ruled that it was valid (highly unlikely).
    Either way this would have been following the constitution.
    And this would not exempt the rioters and protesters from criminal charges if they violated the law.

    So what exactly is the crisis?
    To the best of my understanding, it would be the use of an extremely novel approach to reading the constitution, one which goes against all precedent.

    I’m not trying to belittle the above scenario; it obviously would have major ramifications.
    But it still falls back on 1 of 2 possibilities. If the court rules that was valid- a legit use of a legal loophole- then while the dems would be upset, and they would push to amend the constitution to prevent this from happening again, the result would be that the president would have been elected according to the constitution.

    If the more likely scenario played out, and the supreme court rejected the shtick as unconstitutional and ordered pence to confirm Biden, what would have happened then?

    I don’t think anybody would have expected there to be an armed coup to overthrow the government. Even if people had brought weapons, they were to get Congress to not confirm Biden, not to stage a coup. Especially since their whole point was to uphold the government (in their warped perception).

    Especially since by the time a theoretical court ruling would have been issued, national guard etc would have been mobilized.

    So I really don’t see any potential for a coup.
    At worst it would have been a “constitutional crisis” which just sounds like people getting upset over taking advantage of a legal loophole and violating the spirit of the constitution.

    Do you feel this is an accurate analysis? Did I miss something? Is there another meaning to “constitutional crisis ” the I’m unaware of?

    in reply to: Using an Aeropress on Shabbos #2097659
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I didn’t fully understand the metzius you’re describing.
    I assumed your “pourover” is simply pouring hot water over the grounds, similar to קפה בוץ “mud coffee” they make here in Israel with Turkish coffee.

    But how does pouring over grounds for with a plunger? Are you first pouring and then “plunging”? Is the hot water in the plunger? I don’t really grasp the scenario here.

    in reply to: Kesuba vs Kollel #2097653
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Btw it should be mentioned: a person could change wile in kollel.
    It’s possible for someone to start out in kollel with aspirations of serving Hashem, and it’s totally fine.
    Then, years down the line, he doesn’t has such a passion anymore,but decided to stay in kollel as a means of supporting himself (either he doesn’t have another parnasa option, or he’s too embarrassed to leave kollel and work in a supermarket etc.)

    At this stage, when he’s mainly in kollel as a means of support, it would be problematic

    in reply to: Kesuba vs Kollel #2097650
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @n0mesorah I’m not sure to whom you were responding when c you said “it’s not the rambam’s view.”
    If it was to my bringing rav Leff’s pshat in the rambam, then I do think it’s the rambam’s view.
    That’s why in hilchos Talmud Torah he brings the mishna in avos describing a person who’s using the Torah for one’s personal gain. The person is using learning Torah as a means of supporting himself.
    In shmita v’yovelos he says that anybody who wants to dedicate himself to Hashem like the Leviim did can do so (it’s clear he’s not just talking about every 7th year but all the time).
    This person is kodesh kedoshim and it’s a mitzvah to support him.
    The rambam is comparing this person to the Leviim, who are dedicated servants of Hashem who are supported by the tzibbur, and he’s saying that anybody who also wants to be dedicated to Hashem can be in the same category.

    Rav Leff’s pshat fits very well: if your goal is to dedicate yourself to Hashem, and being supported by others is a necessary means, then it’s totally fine.

    If the goal is to support yourself, and learning Torah is the means, ten then it’s completely forbidden.

    What problem do you have with this pshat?

    in reply to: The solution to the shidduch crisis in one easy step! #2097633
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Just to address an issue I haven’t seen brought up yet: if theoretically polygamy would be reinstated, is it clear that both wives would live in the same house?
    It’s one thing for two wives to agree to share one husband; that has its own challenges.
    But why would the women agree to share a same house?
    I would expect that each wife would want to have her own house to raise her kids, with the husband going back and forth.

    There’s a reason co-wives are called צרות we assume they don’t like each other.

    If this is true, then the finances get much harder.

    in reply to: BLM RIOTS VS. JAN. 6 PROTEST #2097608
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @er
    1. The people who were purely engaged in peaceful protests weren’t arrested.
    When people like kamala harris actively raised bail, it was for the people who were not peacefully protesting.

    2. As best as I can tell, there was no plot of a coup on Jan 6th. There were people who felt that there were still constitutional mechanisms which could reverse the vote and wanted to pressure Pence to do so (in addition to the many protesters who sinply wanted Congress to delay confirming until after investigating discrepancies.

    They might have been wrong about the constitutional abilities to change anything, and they may have been wrong about the method of protesting.
    But I haven’t heard any indication that the protesters, even had they gotten in to Congress, would have done anything other than force Congress to follow their mistaken approach to the confirmation. And this would then have gone to the supreme court who would have rejected it (assuming it really is unconstitutional).

    They were wrong and acted improperly, based on a (probably) false narrative they believed.
    But they weren’t coming to overthrow the government but rather to support the constitution (according to their mistaken approach).
    This hardly a coup.

    3. The BLM/Antifa riots were actually rejecting the government’s authority.
    CHAZ was literally an autonomous zone set up as a rejection of the government’s authority. Federal buildings were attacked, federal statues (representing American history) were torn down,and law and order were rejected.
    No one claimed the constitution allowed looting and destruction; they claimed they weren’t bound by the government since it was a corrupt system founded upon systemic racism and bigotry.
    And this approach was not only not condemned, it was tolerated and even supported.
    The senator who openly called for bailing out the violent priestess not only wasn’t censored, she was chosen as VP.

    CHAZ was tolerated for a long time (I think 6weeks?) Before the crime there became so bad the government had to close it down.

    Portland mayor’s house was torched in and arson attack, and his response was to apologize and leave the city.

    And most of all, the msm kept gaslighting us by claiming that it was “mostly peaceful”, even as 10s of millions of Americans were forced into their homes under curfew. The riots caused billions of dollars in damages as well as hundreds of casualties and dozens of deaths. By all accounts that I’ve seen, tho was the most destructive riot in USA history.
    And when Biden was asked about Antifa in the the debates, he claimed it was just an idea and not an organization.
    Seemingly he was unaware that already in 2015 the FBI had already arrested people, identified and infiltrated cells, and had evidence of a set methodology communication and coordination between cells.

    So the riots were not just some “hoodlums”.
    There were multiple actors inciting active rebellion against the USA authority, on a scale never seen before in American history, with the support of members of government and the msm.

    This to me is a lot more worrisome than some protesters who had a mistaken approach to the elections and felt they needed to act to save the constitution.

    in reply to: is Yeshiva system making talmiday chachamim? or stifling them? #2097583
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    On Tuesday in the (Hebrew) yated neeman, there was a letter from Hagaon Rav Meir Tzvi Bergman (son in law of rav shach and a member of moetzes gedolei yisrael).
    I’ll translate some of it.
    The title of it was “knowledge of the (whole) mesechta is the foundation of understanding the gemara”.

    It starts off,
    “That which has taken root today in the Torah world, that you finish a ‘zman’ having learned only a few daf of a mesechta- this is the way to forget Torah!

    For sure a person must toil and understand, but the main thing is to learn and learn, another daf and another daf, to finish a mesechta and another mesechta. [Rav shach] would always say that without this, a person will remain an ‘am haaretz’.

    It’s impossible to reach understanding before learning the gemara,and ‘Torah is poor in one area and rich in a different area’ [and therefore requires seeing more gemara]…

    And it’s impossible to mechadesh chidushim without this…

    I merited to see gedolei olam… I never saw anyone who became a talmid chacham, who really understood what they learned, who didn’t learn the whole mesechta and became a baki in it…

    And it all depends on one thing- using time appropriately. If you are diligent and immersed in learning and use your time well, you can manage to finish the whole mesechta without taking anything away from the iyun…

    Anybody who takes upon himself this idea, to encourage bnei yeshiva to strive to finish and know the whole mesechta and to utilize the time properly, is guaranteed the tremendous reward of those who are mekayem the Torah…”

    There’s a number of good points that I left out since it’s hard to type right now. But it’s worth reading the whole letter (on page 10)

    He definitely is favoring the approach promoted in the OP.

    in reply to: Regents #2097542
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @ubiquitin this is a perfect example of
    כל המוסיף גורע
    Or in English,
    To add is to subtract

    Really, this kind of test is a good application of בל תוסיף ובל תגרע
    You shouldn’t skip a single answer, since even if you guess there’s a chance of getting credit (but if you leave it blank you m for sure don’t get any credit).

    But don’t fill in two answers to the same question, did your guaranteed not to get credit (but if you filled in one bubble you might get something).

    in reply to: Kesuba vs Kollel #2097452
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I personally like the approach that I heard from Rav Zev Leff shlita.
    He says that the difference is why you’re doing it.

    A person could say: “I need parnasa. How should I make money? Instead of becoming a plumber or a lawyer etc., I’ll sit in kollel.”

    This person is disgracing the Torah. He’s using it like a tool in order to support himself (like the mishnayos from avos that Rambam quotes).

    The other person has a desire to serve Hashem and involve himself in avodas hakodesh- be it full time learning, kirub, teaching or any other tzarchei tzibbur.
    But he says, “if I take a job to support myself, I won’t be able to dedicate myself fully and properly to avodas hashem! I have no choice but to take money for my avoda.”

    This person is kodesh kedoshim and it’s a mitzvah to support him.

    Rav Leff adds, how do you know which category you got in?
    If you are in a situation where your needs are met and you are asked to serve Hashem. His example was a rav who gets an adequate salary from his kehilla, and is asked to give a drosha some where where they can’t afford to pay him.
    If you wouldn’t go without getting paid, then you’re using the Torah as a tool and you’re mechalel shem shomayim.
    If you would go anyway just to teach Torah, that’s assign that you’re kodesh kedoshim.

    in reply to: Kollelim Are Sprouting Like Mushrooms #2097424
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Just a couple of points, purely from a financial prospective:
    1. The government “datot” make up only a portion of kollel’s budget.
    The kollel still needs to fundraise the rest. A very large percentage of the kollel budget comes from overseas donations; even more than that from datot according to what I read a few years ago.
    Thus encouraging kollelim helps encourage overseas investments in Israel.

    2. The chareidi system in Israel is responsible for most of the chutznik learning in Israel as well.
    Chutznik yeshivaleit don’t just bring overseas donations to kollelim.
    They also require overseas support to live here. Many thousands of chutznikim have their rent or mortgages paid by family overseas.
    Likewise, their families are more likely to travel to Israel if their children are here.
    Chutznik weddings and simchas result in tremendous financial income for israelis.

    I remember taking a taxi about 15 years ago, when Tommy lapid (yair’s father) was promoting his “cut support for Torah learning” pitch.
    The secular driver was fuming at lapid.
    “During the recent intifada (2001) when tourism dropped, the only reliable visitors were the lomdei Torah!
    They still came to study and visit, as did their families. If it weren’t for them, thousands of us secular Israelis would have lost our jobs! How short-sighted and ingracious can a person be!” He went on to say more things about lapid that I can’t share here…

    The point is that even without appreciating the intrinsic value of limud hatorah; or even the role the kollel system plays in creating the rabbonim and teachers for world-wide Jewry; even from a purely pragmatic view, financially the kollel system is a benefit to Israel and should be promoted by the gov’t.

    (This doesn’t mean there aren’t issues which need to be addressed.
    But we must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.)

    in reply to: כח דהתירה עדיף #2096874
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I once heard from Rav Yaakov Hillel shlit”a that what used to be called “koach d’hetera adif” has now become “koach d’hefkera adif.”

    After discussing this comment with others who were present at the shiur, I think the pshat is as follows:
    There are 3 categories:
    כח דהיתירה I am confident in this leniency since I know there is no contradiction to it anywhere, and I can resolve anything which seems to be contradictory
    חומרה- I don’t know if there is a contradiction elsewhere, and based on my lack of knowledge I have no choice but to be stringent
    הפקרה- I am deciding to be lenient and I don’t know- nor do I really care- if there is a contradiction anywhere else. I’m not even aware of the potential issues, let alone have a way to resolve contradictions.

    Today too many people mean this last way.

    in reply to: January 6th Committee Hearings #2096414
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @er:
    There was a bipartisan commission established a few years ago to examine the security of mass mail-in voting (as opposed to absentee voting which requires requesting a ballot etc.)
    I remember that former president Carter was one of the leads.
    (I think the other was Jim baker but I don’t remember).

    The commission found that mass mail in voting was a generally unsafe way of voting, and made some recommendations on how to improve it.
    I believe- though I don’t remember for sure- that the democrats had made an issue of it in a prior election (Maybe when Stacy Adams lost in Georgia?)
    Ther

    in reply to: Kesuba vs Kollel #2096338
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @reb eliezer
    And the Rambam in Shmita v’Yovelos says that he’s kodesh kedoshim and it’s the greatest thing in the world.

    There’s a lot of reid to resolve the 2 statements of the Rambam.
    But besides for pshat in Rambam, we also have other rishonim.
    As the beis Yosef already points out, the accepted halacha is not like the simple pshat in Rambam hilchos Talmud Torah

    in reply to: Give the coffee room freedom #2096318
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Frankly I’m glad this forum has active moderators.
    There’s enough vitriol online elsewhere; we don’t need it here as well.

    And the Moderators allow plenty of comments which are questionable in order to facilitate dialogue.
    So when I see the word “edited” on a post I know that there was something actually inappropriate being blocked.

    Thank you @moderators

    You made my day

    in reply to: January 6th Committee Hearings #2096208
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    To add to @smerel’s point:
    Coming in to 2020 elections, there was plenty of bipartisan concern about election integrity.
    Owing to varying COVID policies, numerous places changed their voting protocols- creating confusion and potential for abuse.

    Before COVID, a bipartisan committee found that mass mail-in ballots were risky.

    and and already in 2018, democrats were very concerned about the integrity of electronic ballot machines.
    Numerous big-name democrats testified in the Senate about their findings on just how easy it is to hack and manipulate the machines.

    Given all of these bipartisan concerns , all efforts should should have have been made to assuage any concerns.

    yet this wasn’t exactly the approach taken…

    in reply to: Bashert #2094102
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I’m curious about the purpose of this post.
    Is it just to take a survey of the marital status of the male users of the site? What for?

    It world seem much more practical to assume that the OP is from a woman looking for her bashert and hoping to connect with some men looking to do the same.

    But I don’t understand how this is helpful.
    Assuming that a man and woman both comment that they’re looking to date- then what? How would they be in touch with each other?
    I doubt the moderators would allow personal information like email addresses to be shared here.
    So I’m not following what the potential benefit is of this thread…

    in reply to: Segula R’ Chaim Palagi and sheker #2093810
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    For the sake of people being able to judge for themselves, I’ll quote the loshon of Rav Chaim Palagi zatza”l here:

    מועד לכל חי סימן ח’ אות ו:
    ערב שבועות יפריש צ”ש פרוטות וישלים עד שיעור שני פעמים ב”ן, ויתנם לתלמיד חכם עני ועניו, והיוא תיקון לעון אדם הראשון ועון העגל ולפגם הברית והוא סגולה לחשוכי בנים ומקרב הגאולה

    Erev Shavuos separate 91 prutos and complete the quantity until 2 times “ben” (son) [which is 104], and give them to a poor and modest talmid chacham. This is a tikum of Adam HaRishon, Chet haegel, pgam habris (immorality), and it’s a segular for those who are struggling to have children, and to bring the geulah.

    In halacha 7, he goes on to praise two people who gave significant quantities of money towards talmidei chachomim erev Shavuous, and then he writes that he’s mentioning this in order that other people should imitate them.
    He mentions that he wrote in a different sefer about the obligation to support the learners of Torah on Shavuos even more than other chagim.

    It’s very possible that the tzedaka who sent you the email wrote “and for all yeshuos” instead of listing all of the amazing things rav Palagi actually says.

    If according to him, this can bring the geulah, help women who are struggling to have children, fix up the “pgam habris”, atone for chet haegel and for that of Adam Harishon… it’s not such a stretch to say that it will help for any yeshua!

    regarding the $104-
    he definitely says that you should start with 91 perutos and them complete up to 104. The numbers are definitely correct.

    It seems like the OP is simply bothered that the tzedaka switched to dollars instead of perutos.

    But in light of the concept which he explains- how it’s important to give lots of tzedakah on this day- perhaps they are understanding that “perutos” means the smallest used currency?

    Here in Israel, all of the tzedakos are collecting 104NIS- not aguros.

    It seems funny to assume that Rav Palagi meant “peruta” in the gemara sense, since who uses that nowadays (except in dinim based on the gemara terms, like pidyon maaser sheini etc.)?

    We also find that by the machzit hashekel, it’s brought down to use 3 halfs of the local currency.
    So there is some precedent to say that the “peruta” mentioned by Rav Palagi really means the smallest based currency.

    (cents are not really the currency; it’s a percentage of a dollar. likewise Agurot are mere percentages of the shekel).

    Even if you disagree with this interpretation of Rav Palagi’s writings, I don’t think that justifies calling it a “bald-face lie.”

    in reply to: Slavery — The Torah True Way (with Reb HaLeiVi) #2092971
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s worth mentioning one benefit of slavery that still exists today- facilitating mamzerim getting married.
    A mamzer cannot marry a non-mamzer; and if two mamzerim marry each other, their mamzer status gets passed to their children.

    How can a mamzer get married and raise a family while eliminating the “mamzerus”?

    He marries a shifcha (a female non-Jewish eved who becomes obligated in mitzvos like a regular woman).
    His children then are also his avadim. He then frees his children and they become regular yisraelim, minus the mamzer status.

    I was speaking with a posek once about slavery and he told me about this.
    He mentioned that poskim utilize this lemaase (he mentioned that he knew about Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aharon Kotler giving this guidance, though I don’t know if it is written anywhere).

    He said they find non-Jewish women who want to convert to Judaism (for legitimate reasons).
    They suggest to them that instead of actually converting, they become a shifcha to the mamzer. (It basically is the same status, since both a female ger and a shifcha need to toivel in a mikvah, and they keep the same halachos.) They just hide her status.

    Since slavery is now outlawed in most of the world, it’s hard to do this.

    Apparently, nowadays the mamzer and would-be convert travel to places in Africa or Asia where slavery is still legal, allow her to become a shifcha and then let them get married.
    Then, even when they return back to the Western world where slavery is not recognized, it still works halachically.

    This posek mentioned that some hold it’s enough if they go into the embassy of the African/Asian nation, even though they are still in America, since the foreign country’s laws are applicable in the embassy. (I don’t remember if he mentioned which poskim allow this).

    I had heard of this “kuntz” to purify the mamzer when learning in yeshiva. But I never thought it would be applicable today!

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @TsBaum -You suggested that the solution to the problem of the meshichists and elohists is simply to daven to HKBH for Moshiach.
    It sounds like you’re saying that there is no need for any specific hishtadlus, other than davening.

    By the same token, why invest so much time and effort into kiruv?
    Why don’t just say that the solution to assimilation is simply to daven for Moshiach?

    Obviously, Chabad realizes that davening is not enough. There’s a need to engage the non-religious, put on tefillin and invite them for shabbos etc.
    We need to do hishtadlus.

    So too, when dealing with the “crazies”” of Chabad, there’s a need to do hishtadlus- to exert effort at separating them from Chabad and minimizing their impact.

    Let me ask you:
    If you saw that a chabad house was inviting an elohist to a farbrengen, would you protest that farbrengen? if you saw a post for it, would you take it down?

    I think this should be agreed upon by everyone, correct? We all agree that Elohists are kefira, and that no chabad house should be supporting or hosting them?
    So even if you won’t make a public protest, but at least you should try and minimize their influence.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @N0mesorah:
    I wasn’t “ranting” about chabad.
    I was ruefully relating the reality as I have experienced it here in Israel and as I have clarified it.

    many of the comments on this thread have basically shared the idea that “those meshichisters are minor groups who don’t actually follow the Rebbe’s teachings; and the elohists are an even smaller group that nobody takes seriously.”
    Some people even raised the question about why do we care about these people.

    I was trying to explain why we care.
    These are not “minor” groups of Chabad; these are the ones who represent Chabad in Israel (and other places).
    They are the ones running the Chabad houses, manning the Tefillin booths, and running the schools and other educational institutions here.

    When you ask people who who Chabad are- whether religious people, secular people, politicians or anybody else- every assumes that at least the meshichisters are representative.
    And since the “normal” chabad don’t push back, this narrative is validated.

    You claim that the elohists are this minor group of meshuganas, and that “real chabad” don’t need to waste their time denying them.
    But in Israel, those elohists are treated by meshichisters on equal par.
    As I’ve mentioned, they are invited to speak and “mashpiah” at most chabad houses here.

    How do you know that the person putting tefillin on people at the Kosel (airport etc.) is “only” meshichist and not an elohist?
    As has been often discussed in various forums, some of the more extremists among the “not-normal” chabad hold that they can lie about their beliefs since it’s “mutar leshanos mpnei hashalom” and in order to more effectively mekarev people.

    So now, when members of the local “meshichist” chabad shul are davening at a different minyan with me; and I know that every time the chabad shul has invited the tzfas “mashpiah” to speak that those members have attended; can I join them to make up the minyan?

    I don’t know that they believe the rebbe is HKBH r”l. but they might believe it.

    It’s very nice to just sit back and say “they’re not real chabad, they don’t represent the philosophy.”

    But it’s very hard to ignore them, especially when they are proselytizing to the frum community.
    But if we protest that they are “not really chabad” they simply laugh, since there is no “Normal chabad” counter-voice. They have taken the legitimacy of Chabad for their agenda.

    And when we try and push back against them, by protesting their proselytizing and encouraging people not to take part in their services, we’re just accused of sinas chinam and “fighting among the religious Jews.” (yes, the regular media makes no distinction between the chareidi population and the elohists and messianics. This proves our point even more…)

    @syag I appreciate your support and understanding.
    This is not a rant against Chabad.
    It is a cry of sorrow at how so many “normal” chabad people don’t care that “Chabad” is now synonymous with the crazies, and that generations of kids are being educated with this very mistaken belief, and thousands of people are being “mekareved” to mistaken beliefs.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @N0mesorah:
    “The fight about Lubavitch has ended. Not because of agreement or acceptance. But because Chabad does not need the other groups. And Chabad is not like Reform that necessitated schism.”

    I think unfortunately that it’s quite the opposite.
    At least in Eretz Yisrael, the “fight” has ended because the meshichisters have won.
    They have become accepted as the legitimate representatives in Israel, at least de facto. There is only a question of how much to they emphasize their belief when they are trying to mekarev people.

    But any time you see chabadskers in a park on Shabbos in Israel, they add yechi to the 12 pesukim.
    All the gan yisrael camps are meshichist. (I’ve personally investigated 5 and found them that way; and I asked a few people who work in gan yisrael to research more about them. They told me that at this point, more than 70% of the gan izzies are openly meshichist, and they believed the rest just don’t say it publicly.)

    I am involved with baalei teshuva in israel, and they travel all over and end up in chabad houses everywhere. Everytime I asked these guys about the chabad houses, they all have said that they are meshichists.

    If you walk into any shul and see the parsha sheets from chabad, all you will see are the meshichists.

    I have a few friends who are “normal” chabad from america. They made aliyah and were trying to find schools for their kids that weren’t under the meshichist influence. They couldn’t find any.
    They said they tried partnering up with a few other families to start a “normal” chabad school.
    Everyt ime they tried, they got back the answer: “we already have a chabad school here, why do we need a second?”

    When they finally sent their kids to schools that weren’t “officially” meshichist, their boys were made fun of for not wearing a yehi kippah.

    And all of this is besides the fact that the Tzfas chabad are regular speakers at events all over Israel.
    There is no reason that Chabadskers are willing to associate- and honor- speakers who openly believe the rebbe is HKBH r”l.

    When people ask why are we “wasting our time” protesting chabad, and why don’t we just mind our own business, we point to the above.

    Besides caring about other yidden and not wanting them to be ensnared in apikorus, I have to worry about my kids.
    Chabad actively recruit the frum communities, especially the kids.

    My kids would love to take part in the Lag Ba’Omer parade that chabad runs.
    But I know and have confirmed that part of the parades around my area include saying the pesukim- including yehi.
    And last year they honored a “mashpiah” from tsfas to help lead the parade.

    So we can’t just say “let’s avoid machlokes.”
    As long as mechishisters are the de facto chabad representatives here in Israel- with no public dissent from the “normal” chabad- and as long as they are expanding their influence and trying to “mashpiah” on regular frum kids, then we have no choice but to protest.

    Halevai that normal chabadsker would be more vocal and actually be recognized as the “legitimate branch” of Chabad, so we could marginalize these crazies and support all the good guys.

    I’d love to focus on all of the good Chabad does, and support their kiruv movements.
    But as long as meshichisters are running things here, we can’t do that.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I didn’t understand how @ts Baum et al answered the question.
    The question was that the meshichisters and elohists have gains acceptance (at least in Israel and some othe countries)as being representative of Chabad in the public eye; they run the chabad houses, tefillin stands etc (for the most part). They also run the schools and thus are educating thousands of children to believe that the rebbe is still alive- with a physical body (I’ve confirmed this is taught at some schools for sure)- and that he is the one to whom they pray to.
    What should we do about this.

    If I understood ts Baum’ s answer, it was just that they don’t tilt represent authentic chabad philosophy, and they don’t have a right to claim to actually represent chabad.

    But that doesn’t address the fact that they are actually recognized by the general public as being legitimate

    Ts Baum (and others) objected to calling all chabadskers apikorsim etc since there are lots of Chabad who don’t agree with the meshichisters.

    But it was pointed out- if the public face of Chabad is dominated by meshichisters, and the “regular” chabad don’t publicly distance themselves or reject that philosophy (and don’t even publicize that others disagree)- then why should we assume that some Chabad disagree, and how are we supposed to know that?

    I’m not clear on how these questions were answered.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @TS Baum:
    Perhaps we can address the fundamental question here.
    There are Jews who are sharing views that are at the least very mistaken and problematic (meshichisters) and at worst actual apikorsus and minus (elohists).
    And these same Jews are very publicly claiming to represent Judaism to the outside world, and they are often accepted as being legitimate.

    So there’s a major question here: what should we do?

    it doesn’t help to say they are a minority, or they are not following “true” Chabad teachings.

    Practically, if you are at Ben Gurion airport (or the Kotel, or Central Bus station, or many other locations) and ask where you can put on tefillin, you will be told to find the “Chabad rabbis”.
    This is despite the fact that many of the people manning the stations are (at least) meshichisters, based on their kippas and paraphernalia they share.

    Likewise, many Chabad houses around Israel are run by meshichisters, and public farbrengens are run by even the Tzfas elohists, all in the name of Chabad.
    “Dvar Malchus” and other pamphlets are spread in all the shuls and in all locations, and they almost all contain meshichist ideas and slogans.

    So practically, when this ideology has become the prominent face of Chabad- at least in Israel- there is a need to figure out how to stop this massive Chillul Hashem.

    It sounds like you are saying that non-meshichist Chabad don’t want to publicly reclaim the title of “Chabad” and are willing to let them represent Chabad, out of fear of machlokes.

    I’m not sure if that’s really the proper attitude, but I understand why a chabadsker would be afraid of division within the Chassidus (even though they are not following the Chassidus anyway).

    But for the rest of us, we don’t want secular Jews learning that belief in the rebbe as Moshiach is a fundamental Jewish teaching.
    Why shouldn’t we take a stand?
    Whether we should try and rebuke them privately, or protest them publicly, we should let people know that they don’t represent Judaism!

    in reply to: Movies and Noshim. #2089189
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    In his autobiography “Lieutenant Birnbaum”, Meyer describes going to Rav Hutner zatza”l to get a divinity exemption for the WWII draft since he was scared to go fight in Europe.
    Rav Hutner zatza”l told Meyer that since the exemptions were only for full time study, and he was only in yeshiva part time, he (Rav Hutner) couldn’t give Meyer an exemption.

    Rav Hutner explained that it would be a massive chillul hashem if the goyim found out that they were going to fight the “jew war” as they called it, while the Jews themselves were fraudulently avoiding the fight.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    nomesorah-
    Those people wearing kippahs with the version of yehi that says “Adoneinu Boreinu v’rabbeinu” are quite openly calling him their god. This is very prevalent in Tsfas.
    When the local chabad rabbi by me- who is a meshichist- invited one of the rebbeim from the tsfas yeshiva to speak locally, I asked him how could he allow that rabbi’s presence in his shul; isn’t that a statement of support for his position?!

    The rabbi told me something like, there are many different ways to understand our connection to the Rebbe, and it’s expressed differently depending on your relationship with him, and we can’t criticize people for having a different relationship with the Rebbe than we do.
    (It was when he told me this that I absolutely stopped entering into meshichist shuls).

    This is not a question of “kabbalastic ideas”. They are literally calling him their creator r”l.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    TS Baum- I don’t care what percentage the meshechisters technically make up.
    All over Eretz Yisrael, they are the dominate “strain” of Chabad.
    When you go to parks anywhere in Yerushalayim, and many neighborhoods in other cities, you will see chabadskers gathering kids for the 12 pesukim. And every single time I’ve seen it, they’ve always added yechi.

    When you see chabadskers around, they always have yechi on their kippah. Not only BT but even “mainstream” chabadskers do.
    The Tzfas chabadsker- ie the Elohists- are constantly being invited for guest fabrengens on all occasions. I’ve seen the signs up in numerous neighborhoods. They should be actively protesting the tzfas crowd; but at the very least, they need to disassociate with them. But they are not.

    So tell me that there are lots of chabadskers who don’t believe in this philosophy.
    There still are a large number of chabadskers who are meshichisters, and many of them don’t have a problem with the elohists, and that’s a real issue.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s also important to recognize how much importance they give it.
    Chabadskers go around the parks here shabbos afternoon, gathering the kids to say the 12 pesukim that the rebbe determined contain fundamentals of hashkafa.

    The chabadskers have appended yechi to that, as if it’s the 13th pasuk.

    There’s a lot to discuss about whether we should Alita kids to accept candy from strangers in general in exchange for doing anything; and there’s some controversy about picking these 12pesukim (actually including gemara and Tanya as well) to be institutionalized.
    But I can understand the arguments in favor of both.

    But now we’ve got lots of kids in the neighborhood, including many non-chabad saying “yechi” responsively word by wrote, just the same as they’re saying these pesukim!

    Yechi is definitely being given the same weight as shema yisrael,”yagati u’matzasi taamin” and the rest!

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    nomesorah:
    It’s been a few years since I’ve davened in a Chabad shul; I haven’t gone in since I saw that in tzfat. My local Chabad is one of those who invites tzfas people to speak.
    I’ve seen two different versions.
    Most places that I’ve seen say it responsively, the way many shul swill say pirkei tehillim. They say it right at the end of davening while the chazan is still at the amud.
    In a couple of places I’ve seen them sing it together while dancing around the bima, also right after davening while everyone still had on tallis and tefillin (I happened to daven shacharis there).

    in reply to: Learning on Shovuos – Got It All Wrong #2087758
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    RBZS- In general you are correct.
    However, in most yeshivos (at least here in Eretz Yisrael) everyone is up the whole night learning.
    Many people go to the Mir, where they have an amazing solidly packed beis medrash with intense learning, and then at amud hashachar they breaking into a niggun for half an hour.

    Many other yeshivos leave at alos hashachar and walk to the kosel by netz (the kosel is packed!)

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    I think we also need to address the “boreinu” aspects.
    The first time I heard about it was in 2005, when a full page ad in an Israeli paper showed the rebbe with the words “The rebbe melech hamoshiach is melech malchei hamelachim hkbh mamash” (afar l’pumei)

    I was shocked by that, but I could assume that maybe it was just a crazy person who put the ad out.

    Then I had a friend who told me about the chabad yeshiva in tzfas. he told me he visited and saw that on their paroches, where they have “yechi” instead of writing “adoneinu MOREINU” they have “Boreinu”.
    I said he must have seen wrong- nobody could believe that!

    But then when I went to tzfas, I saw sefarim in some shuls with the “boreinu” version stamped in it.
    And I saw dozens of boys- and a few bachurim and men- with the “boreinu” version on their kippah.

    Besides the issue of them being outright kefira, I was shocked to see advertisements for various chabad shuls in Israel announcing that some of the rebbeim from tzfas would be speaking at various events.

    Even if the Tzfas group is very small, the fact that the greater Chabad groups haven’t pushed back and completely isolated them is very scary.

    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @Nomesorah: My experiences with chabad here in israel have been much more in line with Avira.
    Besides yechi being written on the paroches and Torah mantel, I’ve experienced Chabad shuls where they say Yechi 3 times, responsively.

    in reply to: Washing on Pizza #2074444
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    @tsbaum
    Anecdotally, when I learned in kollel, I had a long commute.
    I would often eat dinner more than an hour after finishing kollel.
    On multiple occasions when I was feeling very hungry, I’d get a slice of pizza to hold me over until I got home.
    I would have done it more frequently but it gets expensive and unhealthy.

    I think this is a classic example of a snack.

    And asking around, I’ve heard numerous people doing the same thing- getting a slice before a long commute home from work etc.

    It doesn’t contradict the fact that sometimes I eat pizza for dinner.
    When it’s a snack I make mezonos.
    When it’s a meal I make hamotzi.
    I don’t think this is crazy at all.

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