Okay, I’ll re-post myself. I’m not about to edit the whole thing to remove all references to speed-dating, though… sorry.

______________________________

So, why can’t we reverse the stages of the shidduch process,

having people speed-date to select for compatible

personalities/”chemistry”, and only then doing research to

decide whether to pursue the shudduch with normal dating,

rendering the entire shidduch system more efficient?

Well, here’s why. Now, even if you personally disagree

with everything in the excerpt below, you must concede that

this is the accepted hashkafah in the community.

Excerpted from “The Kuntris” (Torah magazine)

Volume 1, Issue 13 February/Adar Aleph 2014:

“The Da’as Torah Files – The Shidduch Disaster”

(The piece begins on page 40 – excerpt is from pg. 44-45.

The writer is Nosson Sternbach, but he notes that the ideas

originate from the Shabbos table of Rabbi Gershon Ribner.)

A Googling of R’ Gershon revealed that he is a talmid of

Rav Aaron Shechter of Chaim Berlin, an eidem of Rav

Schneur Kotler ztz”l, and Rosh Yeshiva of Nesivos

HaTorah (on Staten Island).

The premise of the article: A boy arrives for a shidduch,

and the father realizes that all his information was about

another boy (with the same name). What should he do?

Answer: Inform him of the mistake and send him off

(politely, delicately and with sympathy, of course).

Short version: It is not tzniusdig

for a boy and girl to meet without some level of

expectation that this can lead to marriage.

Speed-dating will definitely involve meeting

numerous people of the opposite gender who are not

compatible with you and is therefore unacceptable.

Also, a positive first impression may override research

for those personally involved – the boy and girl.

“The fundamental difference between dating in the Torah

community and the rest of the world is our insistence that

all matches must be set up through a system of referrals,

aka a shadchan. Secular culture feels that there is nothing

wrong with a boy and girl meeting on their own to determine

their compatibility; in fact such intermingling is encouraged.

Many fences have been built by the Torah world to separate

us from that depraved culture. One of those fences is the

absolute insistence on a shadchan.

…

[O]ne must understand the Torah’s perspective on dating.

Any contact with the opposite gender is considered a

“danger zone.” However, in the context of searching for

one’s zivug, such meetings are encouraged and considered

a holy act.

Note: I think I should “call ‘shortzoah’ ” here.

This is pretty obviously not found in any classic

sources, which date from the period – namely, until recent

times – when young people did not meet to “determine their

compatibility” for marriage AT ALL. Talk about it later?

Yet, there is a fine line between “kosher” dating and

immoral mingling.

In America we are so immersed in pritzus

that it is hard to appreciate any form of sensitivity in

this matter. Our barometer of what is and is not

tznius is so corrupted that any attempt

at introducing an element of modesty in our community

is viewed as extreme and abnormal.

…

In the Torah world, boys and girls do not meet haphazardly

and arbitrarily in the hopes that two people might “click”.

Rather, we set up a system of referrals to ensure that if two

people meet, there is a reasonable chance that this shidduch

is appropriate. Only in such a context do we encourage the

opposite genders to interact with one another.

…

It is a scientifically proven fact that we form most of our

judgments of a person during the first few interactions

that we have with them. Somebody with an engaging

and charming personality can easily distort their date’s

judgment of them. All later research […] will be swept

aside and only the positive qualities will be remembered.”

Note: This is about the scenario of a

full date with a random person, not a speed-dating

encounter. That might make a difference.

__________________

That’s that. Additionally, I’m sure many would say

that people would not be given enough of a chance

by such a system, and would be rejected too quickly.

Additionally, people would not be motivated to travel

long distances just to speed-date, so if the entire system

changed, many shidduchim would be pre-empted.

“popa_bar_abba_:

It should be an app. Like a guy can drive from lakewood for a date and then he gets to flatbush and doesn’t want to date her. So he loads the app and it shows him other girls in that area, and maybe he wants to date one of them instead, so he messages her through the shadchan part of the app and she says yes and they go out and build a bnbear.

…

We’re talking about an app that could save you time expended on a trip to Brooklyn for a “dud date” by providing you with an awesomer pick-up date.

You seem to have forgotten that people generally do research before dating someone…

Hey, mordern, welcome back! Please don’t bump any more old threads.

The 6th Google result for >beam me up scotty< will get you an extensive list of misquotations.

(And this post is my test of whether mods will allow directions

to an external site, even in a case where they do not allow the link itself. I wonder if this entire thread would’ve been allowed by current standards…)

IIRC, Kelmers used to wear straw hats.

The ratio of guys who openly tell me what physical characteristics they like, to those who don’t tell me what physical characteristics they like, are 95:1.

“That’s it, man. Game over, man! Game over!”

Unless, of course, popa_bar_abba is right and “all of them are just saying one thing. Thin.”

“So does an Etzba Ketana”[have the same halachos as an erva].

You refer, no doubt, to the ma’amar that if one gazes at the etzba ketana of a woman, it is as he if he has gazed bimkom hateiruf.

But that is not a halacha of an erva. I am referring to such halachos as a man not being allowed to say devorim shebikdusha

if he can see it, and a woman not being allowed to go out with it exposed – none of which apply to an etzba ketana.

A married woman’s hair, however, does have these halachos, just as does, say, a woman’s arm from the elbow up.

I think he might have been trolling. Certainly, I don’t think shadchanim who “spend every night” on shidduchim “average only a few shidduchim a year”, IF they are successful ones.

And all that nonsense about wealtyh people being too busy enjoying their wealth…

As far as needing more shadchanim, this has been mentioned as a problem in the public sphere. Hasn’t everyone seen the calls for everyone to spend an hour on shidduchim a week, or something like that?

When I saw the title of the thread, I knew what I wanted to post, but… you beat me, SIDI. Indeed, you did it.

On the subject, gedolim also do things we might not think of them doing. The Ramchal is renowned to the outside world as a poet and playwright. Wikipedia:

Luzzatto also wrote poetry and drama, most of it seeming secular on the surface, but many scholars have identified mystical undertones in this body of work as well).

Many others wrote poetry as well, e.g. R’ Yehuda haLevi (Kuzari) and “Solomon ibn Gabirol” (I don’t know how to say that in heimish).

So, did you have a different username before this one? Are you going to change it again now (twice)?

(Okay, that stayed up. Now let’s try this.)

YW Moderator-42 wrote:

I have a question about the idea of covering hair:

Why is there a difference between a married and single woman? By every other erva, it either is or isn’t and doesn’t matter what the woman’s marital status is.

I read in a Jewish source (I don’t remember where, but it might

have been one of Gila Manolson’s books) that a woman becomes more aware of herself as a woman with marriage, and her hair reflects this, and it becomes more attractive to men as a result.

Being Real:

It sounds like your primary issue is the amount of time and

effort the system requires you to put in just to be able to find

out – within a few minutes of meeting the girl – that you’re

definitely not interested in her. Also, time and effort is being

expended by others to research and set up these shidduchim.

Speed-dating sessions, you presumably argue, would allow you

(and, of course, everyone else in shidduchim)

to eliminate such “mismatches” and avoid the time spent on

them, thus rendering the entire system more efficient.

It bears thinking about. I’m sure many would say that people

would not be given enough of a chance by such a system,

being rejected too quickly (and, by extension, that you

are deciding too quickly when you reject your shidduchim).

(This has been argued even about full-length dates:

"Never go out once / it's a basic rule

Zain tatteh hut gelt / gai arois noch a mool

Vus vet zain oib di vilst nisht gain?

Di vest blaiben gantze leben alain

Gai shoin shnell / ich gai dir geiben a brucha

Chasunah hobben / mach a groise mishpucha

This is the point we're tryin'a tell you

That making a shidduch is a hard thing to do"

"Shidduch Date" - Black Hattitude :)

Wow, it's been nearly 20 years since that album's release.)

More seriously, though, I’m sure many girls and boys would

not be comfortable with the idea of such a situation, or in it.

Additionally, people would not be motivated to travel

long distances just to speed-date, so if the entire system

changed, many shidduchim would be pre-empted.

Also see the magazine article excerpt in my next post.

Side note: Maybe you could request shorter dates,

if the long (first?) dates annoy you even when you

don’t decide after 5 minutes that she’s not for you.

Zombies!

You can try public libraries for books. This probably works best if you live in New York, or a similarly large city, as interlibrary loans tend to take very, very long.

I have an instructive article from the Kuntris magazine on the subject of shidduchim, and will b’li neder type some of it up for the olam soon.

“Weirdness is fantastical [sic]” – Says the man with 2 references to the series “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” in his name and subtitle. (Did he give CR member “149” the subtitle “-107”? We may never know.)

Mechezi:

Weirdness cannot be said to be ossur.

Weirdness might possibly be considered goyish. Whether it is goyish and whether the appraised level of goyishness is inappropriate is subjective (I assume).

There is this quote from “Reb Yaakov” (the ArtScroll bio):

“Even the talking lampposts on a Torah tape for children, Reb Yaakov felt,lessened a child’s sense of the distinction between truth and falsehood.”So, are these weird books for your children? However…

We cannot be sure if he meant l’maaseh to discourage that sort of thing,and I don’t think anyone actually takes any notice of this consideration.

Conclusion: Go ahead! Read stuff that can be filed under

“Makes Just as Much Sense in Context” and

“What Do You Mean, It Wasn’t Made on Drugs?”

(Man, do I need to find a better use of my time.)

Buy secondhand. Sources include stores, flea markets, and web sites.

It can be difficult to find some things…

If it’s a sefer, I heard about a place in Yerushalayim where they’ll print and staple together for you any sefer in the Otzar HaChochmah (the library hard drive), and I’d assume there’s such a place in Boro Park too.

Stars, rocks, and rock stars.