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Sad. I thought Torah was beyond politics.
Take your time in drinking the mixture and you will be fine.
Sam Klein,
I disagree; Kal Yisrael most differently wants and waits every second for Moshiach. There are some individuals that are not yet ready for him; if you have learned Tanach, you have would like learned that Kal Yisrael is holy, very good and beloved in HaShem eyes and we are not to speak negative of them collectively.My first question would be either be Melach Moshiach what is your first command or where do I go to go HOME.
Stated before:
A yeshiva is supposed to be a Makom Torah and a place of Kedush and a Kiddish hashem.
A yeshiva that protected a child molestor and then uses things like bankruptcy, changing owners and other really Legal, but not proper ways not to pay their victims is not really a place of Kedusah and Kiddish Hashem.If so, why do some of them protect and retain know/proven abusers? They would protect their liability by first isolating them and firing them after it has been proven.
Moderator,
thank you for reopening this.To conclude, this is a matter of Halacha because it appears no one on this tread who is a world class expert on vaccinations equal to argue with the far, far majority of doctors and there is no one on this tread who is a Gadol, Halacha obligates everyone to follow the Galolim and the far, far majority of doctors. If a individual rav feels they are equal to our Gadolim to poskim differently, that means they feel they are equal or greater than all of the Gadolim; the fools of those rabbis and the fools of the people that follow them who will have much to answer for in the next world.
Doomsday,
you wrote:Re: Halacha
I don’t have young children so I didn’t ask a Shayla. On the other thread, a parent said they asked THEIR Rov and were told Not to vaccinate.Everyone has a right to ask their OWN Rov.
Again, you did not answer the question. the above statement makes it appear as you do not understand or know Halacha, Shas and Poskim because, if you did, you would know the when all Gadolim have all spoken and the far, far majority of medical professionsals (subject matter experts) have stated you are OBLIGATED to vaccinate, you must do so unless there is a danger to life and limb. What Germara, Shulan Aruch and Poskim allows you, as a FRUM Jew, to 1) state otherwise and 2) encourage people otherwise when same require you to follow the stated obligation (see end of Yoma and Halchos Yom Kippur)?
Question: which is more important – following Halacha or being an anti-vaxer?
Doomsday,
again you ignore my comment and in that this, as frum jews, is a matter of Halacha. Clearly, you feel that you are a medical professional able to argue and disagree with the far majority of medical professionals in the country.Again, what is your halachic basis for not getting your vaccination and who is the Gadol that you rely on?
Doomsday,
we went through this several months ago and you did not answer my question. Look back at my question and respond with an answer al pe halacha and not according to your own thinking and rationale.I do not know where you are from but no one in my community says Hallel; we say the normal davening for that day.
This is why I refused to require or send pictures in the resumes I deal with; just let the people find out for themselves.
Anyusernameopen,
before you say anything about the Vilna Gaon and his lack of understand, you MUST be very careful for your Olam HaBa. His main student said when he dies that he was 100 days from being on the level of RITVA. If you do not understand the greatness of that statement, please learn Shas a few times with Rashi and Tos without Artscroll.No.
No they are not required to drink; please see the Gemera in Kesuvos and the Rabbeneu Ephraim in Megillah.
Health,
the whole Anti-Vaxxer movement is based on deliberate fraud and therefore everyone should discuss the matter with their doctors rather than quarksHealth,
please read this month Z’Man article on this topic.If that don’t change your mind, that nothing will.
Health,
because there are individuals that are anti-science, anti-doctors and only believe in their “experts” like a new religion.
It appears from our Jewish orthodox leaders, the answer is clearly NO; they should not be allows except for specific health reasons like cancers.Doomsday,
On Januaryy 24, 2019 you stated:Polio is a serious illness but measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, rotovirus, whooping cough are not. And before vaccines were invented these illnesses were listed in medical textbooks as
BENIGN Childhood diseases. They only became “deadly” when Pharmaceutical Co developed vaccine.They are not benign diseases are they with that many people dying are they?
Doomsday,
it appears the facts and truth have come to light finally, so make an appointment with you doctor.Based on this, are Anti-Vaxxer really Rodefim and a danger to the public which the consequences for same are in the Shulhan Aruch?
Which comes first for Anti-Vaxxers: the science or the conclusion?
doomsday,
You stated “Polio is a serious illness but measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, rotovirus, whooping cough are not. And before vaccines were invented these illnesses were listed in medical textbooks as BENIGN Childhood diseases. They only became “deadly” when Pharmaceutical Co developed vaccine”Are you crazy? Seriously.
Do you know the effect of these diseases are? Death, permanent life alternating effects, horrible birth defects, etc.
Please do any basic research of the number of death and life alerting cases for each of these diseases and you would NEVER EVER say such a stupid thing.
Even chipenpox,; do you know what effect of chickenpox is on a pregnant women who has never had it?
Clearly, you need to have some fact and reality checking.
It appears you do not listen to expert doctors, the medical profession, our rabbis, the written or oral Torah; you just listen to yourself and those that support you. Please do not repeat the same information for the 20th time.
I pray that you never get sick and need a doctor. If you do, how do you they will not be against you?
P.S. Is the managed risk of environmental pollution in your air, water and food worth it?
My kids and wife already know my YWN name and know my writing style; we communicate.
What would happen if you have two id and argue with each other for your benefit?
Doomsday,
do you K NOW the acceptable cancer levels for every chemical in your drinking water and all drinking water throughout the USA , for the pesticides in your food and for the air you breath? This is called MANANAGED RISK; the balancing of the negative effects of man added chemicals to other risks.This was discussed at my kitchen table when I was growing up many years ago and it still holds true.
All of life is managed risk. If you want no risk, think of where you need to live.
What is your risk tolerance? Polo etc vs possible complications
Are you old enough to know the scare that polo caused and do you know how BAD the effects of polo are? If you do you, think about it before you say anything else.; i.e. Iron lung – look it up!
Doomsday,
How many times do you want to repeat the same information with the hope that others will accept it as fact?
Why do you need to use strong personal insults when logical fact based arguments will be more effective? Degrading wording is degrading your words; the high road is always the better road.
Personal stories are not logical fact based arguments.I do not think my children’s doctor is part of an entire medical conspiracy.
The pears are really good; try some.
Doomsday,
I feel sorry for you and your lack of understanding.Maybe you will view this differently after learning 10,000 blatt Gemera and a B.S. in Science or Engineering.
YWN Moderator,
I formally ask you to shut down this thread because it is clearly going nowhere like World War I trench warfare.Thank you
Doomsday,
ENOUGH!
You stated on December 20, 2018
Some Common Sense:
Anti Vaxxers Are:
1) Anti-establishment –The Torah says that this world is OLAM HASHEKER. For example do YOU believe
in Evolution? Then YOU are Anti-Establishment! Do you believe Homosexuality is Moral? Anti-Establishment!
2) Anti-science – It is PROVAXXERS who are ANTI-SCIENCE. I have Proven that the Main Scientific Studies used to “Prove” MMR doesn’t cause Autism Or Thimerosal doesn’t cause Autism are FRAUDULENT! And no Pro-Vaxxer was able to refute my proof. So Pro-Vaxxers are Anti-Science! Also, if you don’t believe in EVOLUTION, then you are also “anti-science”, right???
3) Anti-medicine 4) Anti-personal physicians
There are many MEDICAL Doctors whose opinions, Anti-Vaxxers Respect and Follow.
5) Unwilling to follow the far majority of Da’as Torah
Per the Torah, one is allowed to follow a Rav of his choosing, as long as it is a Torah-True Rov.
The Rule of “following the Majority” applies when we have a Sanhedrin, which we don’t have today R”L.
6) Are placing their personal views above Halachah
You are ignorant of Halachah. Halachah is “FOLLOW YOUR ROV” which Anti-Vaxxers do!”I have spoken very respectfully but you respond with insults like “You are ignorant of Halacha”; do you know how much I have learned in both Shas and Halacha? It is not what you think. Your answers are not worth to respond to on on the face of it because you are incorrect on every point; you cannot accept it or even discuss that possibility because of your irrational bias . You have repeated the same information over and over again without understanding all of the points made to.
Lastly, what is the specific name of Rav you asked and told you on a general basis not to vaccinate? If you cannot give the Rav’s name, this discussion is pointless and I would ask the moderator to end this now.
The Vilna Gaon learned on every night of the year including Nittel, which is my minhag.
Eli Y,
Please please do not loss hope. It is a very hard struggle but it is worthy the work to lovingly develop your son to love learning and give him the skills for a lifetime of learning Torah to be the best of his ability. That is the ultimate goal, not this specific program.I say this as someone who had to work very hard to do this.
ubiquitin,
you misunderstand; Doomsday feel that the CRC, entire US Government, entire world wide medical profession and most of the general public are part of the conspiracy against Anti-Vaxxers. She has never addressed why she does not follow the Da’as Torah except to say there are unnamed rabbi that are anti-vaxxers despite the vast majority are require vacations; i.e. we follow the majority which she may remember from her Bas Yaakov days.There are anti-vaxxers that are
1) Anti-establishment
2) Anti-science
3) Anti-medicine
4) Anti-personal physicians
5) Unwilling to follow the far majority of Da’as Torah
6) Are placing their personal views above HalachahDoomsday,
you stated “Here is my Proof: Children who are vaccinated in third world countries have better educated parents, higher income, better food, cleaner water, less overcrowding, more access to medical care then Unvaccinated Children. ”I do not what world you are on but the United States have some of strictest environmental laws and regulations in the world and some of the best health care; please see how many people from other countries fly to the USA for medical care. Income, please look on line for the USA standard of living versus “developing counties” like Brazil
2cents (#1646363)
It appears you point is correct. There are anti-vaxxers that are
1) Anti-establishment
2) Anti-science
3) Anti-medicine
4) Anti-personal physicians
5) Unwilling to follow the far majority of Da’as Torah
6) Are placing their personal views above HalachahWhat do we call this? Please answer this question.
You must try the pears. I think it may help this discussion, but wait, there are bacteria and pesticides that we need to worry about on them. Oh well, healthy pears, after washing with soap and water, are worth the minor risk of trace amounts of bacteria and pesticides for my overall healthy, right?
Can we raise this discussion from accusing people of lying to a discussion of medical experts and Da’as Torah? The pears are really great; try some.
91 people in Rockland County have contracted Measles because of one person.
What do we call that in Halacha and what are the implications of that title?
I know the anti-vaxxers will not answer this because they are only dealing with second hand information that have read but if this is YESHIVA World News are mostly Frum Jews, the Torah and Da’as Torah should and must be our first priority. Maybe some of the Anti-Vaxxers on this blog are not Frum Jews?
Is there a point to arguing with someone who will not listen to science, Da’as Torah or reason and only repeats the same information no matter what you say?
If you cut off their funding, you will cut them off.
Welcome to the religion of “Medical Freedomers”; not Judaism. There is a Meschta in Shas for this which Daf Yomi learned a few Meschtas ago.
Are you going to admit you are wrong, Some Common Sense?
No. You are not a doctor or have any medical expertise to judge this matter; I do not believe in an entire medical industry conspiracy between thousands of doctors, hospital, governmental entities, etc.
Halachaly, you are incorrect; the gelodim and poskim vastly disagree with you.
Have you asked your Rav if not vaccinating is a Masik BeRabbim, which has some very negative consequences as mention in Y”D – look it up. I have learned it with my Rav many years ago.
Sof kol maasah, this, as G-d fearing Jews, is a matter that we follow Da’as Torah and Da’as Torah has spoken. If a few rebbiem say differently, what is your basis to al pi Torah not to follow the vast majority of poskim?
If you respond with another medical study, you are answering my question so you don’t have an answer.
I have been very polite and your statement is not.
With great sadness for you, I do not plan to answer anymore on this topic as my points are falling on deaf ears. I feel I can answer on Yom Kippur for my decision to vaccinate my children, how can you justify your decision when you decision may cause others to be sick, permanently damaged or die?
Maybe require a letter from their local and well known doctor directly to the school with the vaccination record because I have heard, but not verified, that some parents are taking the vaccination record on one child and erasing the name and placing other children to falsify the record. If the child does not have such a letter from this doctor, the nurse will give the child all the necessary vaccination. If a parent refuses, they can find a different school for anti-vaxxers that are willing to let their children get polio.
000646,
well said. All medicines have risk and are only allow to the general public after many years of testing, including human trials, with a maximum acceptable risk level. If doomsday is unwilling to accept that risk, her daily behavior has much much higher risks like driving a car, walking down stairs, taking a shower, walking on a city street etc.
Clearly this is not a matter of science and risk management, it is a matter a believe to them, which not Judaism.2cents,
you are correct. This is a one sided conversation. I do not hear about following Da’as Torah but rather follow themselves and unnamed “doctors” and “rabbis” (in lower case). Is that Judaism or another religion?kavod Habrit,
If your Rav told you that your are obligated to vaccine your children, would you do it? If not, are you a servant of HaShem or yourself? If yes, ask your Rav this question?Doomsday and any other Anti-Vaxxer
Now I will ask a question that you most probability will not answer:If the far majority of Rabbiem say you are obligated to vaccinate, would you vaccinate your children and grandchildren? If not, are you serving HaShem or yourself? If yes, ask your Rav whether you should vaccine. If your Rav says you do not have to, except for a specific medical reason, I would like to know the name of that Rav.
dbrim and dooomsday,
Do you have Rav that you ask Shaiis to or is this too important to ask?dbrim, what is your Ph D in? Medicine?
Doomsday,
Again, do you trust anyone but yourself?Doomsday,
Do you trust anyone other than yourself?Doomsday,
I assume you know that all drugs are based on a bell curve with the acceptance of one in a million risk
I assume you know that environmental releases in your air, water, soil, food etc are based on the acceptance of one in a million cancer risk over seventy years.
do you trust or do you only follow yourself?Doomsday,
do you trust anyone other than yourself?
If not, we live in different worlds.