SQUARE_ROOT

If HaKatan and UJM and SomeJewIKnow will agree to
NOT discuss The Three Oaths and Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
then I will also agree to NOT discuss those controversial topics
that cause us Jews to sin against each other.

And through the merit of making Shalom LeShem Shamayim,
may G*D forgive us all, and help us all, and send us all
the Geulah Sheleimah, As Soon As Possible (ASAP).

I am trying to stop a machlokes that has continued much too long,
and has caused many sins, but I cannot do it alone.

We need the co-operation of everyone who comments
on this web site. I thank you all, in advance, for your co-operation.

After the Balfour Declaration, in HaTekufah HaGedolah,
pages 174 to 175, Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk
(born in 1843 CE & died in 1926 CE) wrote that
“the fear of The [Three] Oaths has departed.”
He expressed his approval of Religious Zionism
in Sare HaMeah, Volume 6, pages 233 to 234.

HaKatan said this on 2026 June 3 at 11:21 AM:

“There are at least three oaths there,
and they are totally independent of each other
for numerous reasons.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

The famed Rabbi Shlomo Kluger explains that
if the gentiles do not observe their oath,
then we are exempt from ours.

Nobody who learned about the Holocaust can
take the gentile’s oath seriously, as if they did not
“oppress us too much”, so we clearly are no longer
obligated by our oath, and it is no longer “before its time”.

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Rabbi Teichtal, in his work, “Em HaBanim Smeicha,” explaijns:

Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully,
the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much.

Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles.
Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz also said that:

The Three Oaths DO NOT APPLY because the nations of the world
violated their side of the deal, by persecuting Jews excessively.

[For example: The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisitions of 1391 and 1492,
Islamic persecutions, the Chmielnicki Massacres, and The Holocaust.]

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

HaKatan knows very well that many Rabbis disagree with him,
when he says that:

“There are at least three oaths there,
and they are totally independent of each other…”.

He has seen that belief refuted many times, in this Coffee Room,
but he chooses to ignore all refutations,
because he is a stubborn shameless liar.

chaim_baruch: For a short time, the machlokes about
The Modern State of Israel had stopped on this web site.
That silence was beautiful and valuable.

But you started the machlokes again, and now it will probably
last for at least another 3 years, more likely another 5 years.

This unnecessary machlokes, which chaim_baruch
foolishly started again, will certainly cause many
violations of Torah law, including:

Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, sheker, onaas devarim,
laitzanus, insults, sinas chinam, public humiliation,
and machlokes itself is a severe sin.

And it will probably NEVER STOP, because too many
people who participate DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO STOP.
__________________________________________________________

PS: chaim_baruch: I actually agree with you that
the Three Oaths are NOT to be followed, in our times.

But you still should not have re-started this machlokes,
because maintaining shalom is more important than being right.

In recent months (or maybe weeks), I have avoided
discussing this subject, to avoid endless machlokes.

Because sometimes shalom is more important
than being right, or trying to be right.

By asking this question, you have risked ruining
a rare De Facto truce on this web site.

Sorry about that.

SomeJewIKnow said:

“Moving to Eretz Yisroel is explicitly taught in Torah
as NOT the solution to exile
and NOT a solution to antisemitism.

All you are doing is pushing kefira that will not help out anyone.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

“The Chazon Ish encouraged people from overseas
to settle in Eretz Yisrael as it is a positive commandment,
and he felt that Yiddishkeit was more prevalent
and easier to practice there than in the diaspora.”

SOURCE: Rav Chaim: The Life and Legacy of the
Sar HaTorah Rav Shmaryahu Yosef Chaim Kanievsky
(chapter 5, page 56), by Naftali Weinberger,
Mesorah Publications, February 2023 CE,
ISBN-10: ‎1422632873 * ISBN-13: ‎978-1422632871
__________________________________________
If you doubt that this quote is accurate,
then I invite you to find a copy of the book I quoted,
and turn to the chapter and page that I quoted.

__________________________________________
4 PERSONAL COMMENTS:

[1] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA encouraged Jews
to make aliyah, even though Israel was ruled
by a Secular Zionist government, at that time!

[2] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA felt that Yiddishkeit
“was more prevalent” in Eretz Yisrael, in his times,
even though Israel was ruled by a Secular Zionists, at that time!

[3] The Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA felt that it was
“easier to practice” Yiddishkeit in Eretz Yisrael,
even though Israel was ruled by a Secular Zionists, at that time!

[4] The Secular Zionists in the time of the Chazon Ish ZTL ZYA
[the 1950s CE] were 100 times worse than the Secular Zionists in our time [the 2020s CE].

Chaim87 said this on 2026 May 27 at 5:57 pm
in a discussion titled:
“YU vs the Greater Yeshiva World“:

“I as a Charedi can attest to
working with some of those [YU] graduates.

They [YU graduates] are often more ehrlich
and Baalei Halachah than the yeshiva guys.

Much more emes people too.

I worked with one who only davened mincha in the office
when he knew he would not make it home on time.
Otherwise of course you daven in shul.

He also woke up 5 AM every day and learned till 7. ”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

THANK YOU!!

Avi K said:

Rav Moshe said “… we require miracles exclusively,
so that perhaps the people will recognize that it is God who is doing this.

And so, thank God, this has been fulfilled,
and He has produced the victory over Arabs far greater in number,
who also had the assistance of a major empire for their weaponry,
much greater than our state in the Land of Israel, and yet in just four days,
they defeated all of the Arab nations and Egypt,
in the time from Monday to Thursday,
and we hope that He will send the King Messiah soon,
and all Israel will recognize that ‘the Lord is a man of war'” (emphasis mine)

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Thank you for your comment.

Which “Rav Moshe” are you talking about?

PLEASE DO NOT assume that we can read your mind.

PLEASE assume that we DO NOT know. Thank you.

You need to give us his complete name. Thank you.

__________________________________________

PLEASE help us, by providing us with an exact source for your quote.

Quotes from famous Rabbis are meaningful,
when you can PROVE that they are accurate,
by providing exact sources for your quotes.

Your quote is interesting, but where is it written?

What is the name of the book?
What is the name of the author?
What is the chapter number and page number?
Who published that book and in what year?

I thank you very much in advance for answering my question.

user176 said:

“HaKatan & UJM:

Would you just zip it already?

Kol haposel b’mumo posel.
Anyone who accuses others of idolatry is likely themselves an idolater.

Your words are blasphemous, hateful, and have no place here.

Either act like a Jew or take a hike.

So disgusting, disgracing Talmidei Chachamim and writing-off half of Am Yisrael.”

__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:

Thank you, user176, for your truthful words.

But HaKatan & UJM are writing-off much more than “half” of Am Yisrael.

Sorry about that.

simcha613 said:

“Yes, many secular Zionists wanted
Jewish nationalism to replace Torah.
That ideology is anti-Torah.

But Religious Zionism explicitly rejects that.

Religious Zionists believe Eretz Yisrael,
Jewish sovereignty, mitzvos hateluyos ba’aretz,
the army, and national life must be
connected to Torah and halacha – NOT replace them.

So why should the kefirah of secular Zionists
be projected onto Religious Zionists who reject that kefirah?”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Thank you very much for your correct logic.

I had similar thoughts for a long time,
but I did not know how to express them in words.

May G*D reward you for speaking the truth.

Tragically, UJM & HaKatan DO NOT CARE
about your logic, no matter how true it is,
and no matter how correct it is.

They care ONLY about what their favorite Rabbis said,
and they intentionally ignore everything else,
which they mistakenly believe to be a great act of righteousness.

One day, the misguided piety (and stubbornness)
of UJM & HaKatan & those like them will cause
a Jewish Civil War, or another Holocaust, or both.

Millions of Jewish lives will be lost.
Countless Jews will be taken hostage and tortured and raped.
Countless Jews will be captured and forced to convert to Islam.
Countless Jews will be stateless & homeless refugees.
Billions of dollars worth of Jewish property will be lost.
Countless synagogues & yeshivahs will be destroyed.

That is the endgame of the policies endorsed by UJM & HaKatan.

from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:

“Such a committee of investigation would have served
as a ploy to unseat Prime Minister Menachem Begin,
for whom both the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah
of America and that of Eretz Yisrael had great respect.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This short quote proves that the Gedolim had
“great respect” for Israel’s Prime Minister: Mr. Menachem Begin,
even though Menachem Begin was the leader of a Secular Zionist state!

NOTE: Mr. Menachem Begin was Prime Minister of Israel from June 1977 to October 1983.

On 1983 November 7, Susan Rosenberg and Sue Evans,
both Leftist activists, ignited a BOMB in Washington DC
that tore through the second floor of the Senate building,
as part of an attempt to assassinate Republican Senators.

On his last day in office (2001 January 20), President Bill Clinton
(of the Democratic Party) commuted their sentences to time served.
This was almost like a pardon.

QUESTION:

Rabbi Moshe Sherer (born 1921 CE, died 1998 CE)
was the President of Agudath Israel.
What did Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA say about the modern State of Israel?

__________________________________________
ANSWER:

Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA said these
statements about the modern State of Israel:
__________________________________________
from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 13, page 321:

“He [Rabbi Moshe Sherer] assured [Prime Minister Yitzhak] Rabin…
that he could always count on Agudath Israel of America
to be strongly supportive of Israel’s security needs.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This is the 1st quote of 4, which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!

NOTE: This conversation occurred in, or close to, year 1975 CE.
Yitzhak Rabin was Prime Minister from June 1974 to June 1977 CE.
__________________________________________
from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 15, page 356:

“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer responded at length.
He pointed out that the opposition to religious umbrella groups
did not preclude Jews joining together on issues as
Israel’s security or combating anti-Semitism.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This is the 2nd quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
__________________________________________
from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 545:

“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer’s summary of a confidential
June 17, 1970 [CE] meeting with Israel’s
Ambassador to Washington Yitzchak Rabin
reflects his lifelong approach to Israel’s security needs.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This is the 3rd quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
__________________________________________
from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 546:

The offer of political support Rabbi Sherer made
to Yitzchak Rabin was one he would repeat
on many occasions to Israeli leaders.

In a 1981 [CE] letter to Israeli Ambassador Ephraim Efron,
for instance, he described Agudath Israel’s grassroots
constituency as a “reservoir of manpower which is
totally committed to the safety and security of Israel.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:

This is the 4th quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-jews-are-quitting-the-democratic-party

HaKatan:

No offense intended, sir, but with all due respect, you are disconnected from reality.

You are NOT LISTENING to the comments made in this Coffee Room.

A wise man once said, because it is true, that:

“You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.”