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Avira, is it more of thing in Eretz Yisroel than in America?
Also, have you seen many the other way, with Chasidish men marrying Litvish women?
MBS is the heir apparent Crown Prince. His father is the absolute monarch.
Jack, the likelihood of Russia not gaining territory after all is said and done, is rather small. Ukraine is highly unlikely to be able to win this war. The only question is what the extent of it will be.
Yida, I’ve been making the same suggestion for years, regarding Chasidish boys with Litvish girls. I’ve seen it happen, but not often — and usually the girl was more heimish than Litvish.
Have you seen the other way — Litvish boys with Chasidish girls?
Saudia Arabia is an absolutely monarchy today. So are Dubai, Oman, Brunei, Abu Dhabi and the Vatican.
The story is gone because the transvestite’s lawyer threatened the websites they’ll be sued if they didn’t delete the stories about him.
ENS: That’s complete sheker. There are many neighborhoods with larger food stamps acceptance than Boro Park and Williamsburg. Are all your previous comments also filled with false data? Additionally, Willy has a significant Hispanic population.
“Does anyone know if these selichos with musical accompaniment and singing are increasing every year?”
Until relatively a few years ago (maybe a decade/decade and half) the only places I heard of this were at the Carlebach houses; which attracted some electic crowds, including the long hair types, etc. Almost never heard of them in regular frum, Yeshivish, Heimish or Chasidish circles.
Again someone is taking a small upstate rural village and attempting to extrapolate that data to city dwellers almost a hundred miles away. Why? Because, hey, they both look like the same kind of Jews.
That’s like blaming blacks nationwide for the black incarceration rate in Washington, DC.
YU, is at most, a b’dieved for those that would have done even less without it.
Again, no one needs to be exactly like the Amish to benefit from the constitutional rights of freedom of religion pertaining to education enumerated in Yoder. If anyone wants to strip anyone else of their First Amendment rights, then any burden of proof lies upon such party. Taking a small rural town and attempting to apply it to others, only because they share the same religion, won’t fly in court. Aside from the fact that the difference in income between the compared parties is rather small in any event.
And, for the umpteenth time, the Chasidim are very self sufficient. Their incomes are above the national average and certainly above the average of other minority groups that go to public school. And their welfare acceptance rates are below other minority groups that go to public school.
ENS/AAQ: Good grief, people. Who said this cash income isn’t being reported to the IRS? All your above statistics in this thread is NOT IRS data! And you’re both assuming the worst in other Yidden; that they don’t report their cash income for tax purposes?! Of course they do.
“Esav soneh Yaakov is still the halocha”
Esav soneh Yaakov does not mean Yaakov should become a little more like Esav to make him less hateful.
ENS:
1. NY has no such legal ability.
2. Subpoena whom? The Yeshivos do not have income information of their graduated students.
Additionally, the Yoder case doesn’t have any criteria to claim that educational exception other than the expression of sincerely held religious beliefs.
3. Because if you want to argue the Yeshivos, AS IS today, are producing a worse outcome DUE TO their lack of a more serious secular studies curriculum, then the Yeshivos can use whichever demographic of their choice that does have a compliant secular program to compare themselves to.
4. The justices are simply describing the various attributes of the Amish community. The decision, though, is a binding precedent even for others who do not share every attribute of the Amish community.
5. Firstly, you’re again attempting to extrapolate data from NS to non-NS Jews. You cannot.
Secondly, NS is generally two parent families with one working parent and one stay at home parent. The secular world is generally both parents (or “partners”, at they’re often living together unmarried with children) are working; and sometimes even their 18+ year old children are in the workforce, for a third (or more) income. So with one working parent in NS, they can still be earning more INDIVIDUALLY, even though your statistics are combining all working adults in the family to produce a higher income per secular family.
Thirdly, your KJ data shows a very nice income compared to the Bronx, even if it is a bit below average. That makes my case much more than yours. Especially, combined with my previous point under “Secondly”.
Fourthly, we both know that there’s more cash income not reflected in the statistics. (Take the moral discussion to a new thread. But note that in court divorce proceedings, the court WILL count off-the-books income in determining asset separation, child support, alimony, etc, without engaging in a moral or criminal outlook.) Look at the quality of the homes, the material possessions, how they’re dressed and the relatively lavish and frequent simchos made even by the average citizen in those two upstate towns compared to the Bronx.
Yes, these Jews are definitely making more money than their Bronx public school graduating compatriots.
And the burden to prove otherwise is on the anti -Yeshiva forces if they think they can take away the Jews and the Yeshivos constitutional rights as outlined by SCOTUS in Yoder. The Yeshivos and the Jewish community do not have to prove they did lose those constitutional rights of freedom of religion as it pertains to education.
The יצר הרע for ע״ז used to be very powerful; after the change it is very weak (though not completely gone.)
The יצר הרע for רציחה was never as powerful.
In what way was the יצר הרע for זנות blinded?
FYI for AAQ: Manhattan was, not that long ago, the center of Jewish America.
Syag, NYC public schools have very close to the same arrangement for Spanish speaking students.
AAQ, mdd’s views on this matter is from being an excellent student of history, especially Russian history, as well as a very careful follower of current events.
smerel: Your defenses are desperate. You’re trying to defend the indefensible.
And Yom Kippur will be turned into a Kumzitz.
smerel: You ignored the point. No graduate school is obliged to have or fund or acknowledge or provide any accommodations to ANY club. It is only once they accept one club then they legally cannot discriminate against another. But if they don’t support even a single club then they don’t have to accept any toeiva club.
ubiq:
According to your verbatim quotation, you are asserting that the new regulations are basically saying that as long as the private school gives the Regents, even if 100% of the students fail the exam, the school has proven public school equivalency and they’re okay, correct? Because the regulation you quoted only says they have to give it.
“If you are right, hopefully these new regulations are accepted then”
This response of yours is saying you believe that the Yeshivas should be forced to teach sex education.
“you were wrong.
Thank you for correcting the record”I see again that your English reading comprehension is subpar. But that’s okay since you spent more time in Yeshiva on Limudei Kodesh and, as a result, less time on secular studies. Baruch Hashem for that, I’m happy your Yeshiva dedicated more time for Torah, at the expense of non-Torah studies. No one should hold your lack of proper English against you. If you noticed over the years, I’ll almost never reprimand anyone for poor English.
But, since you misunderstood, let me again clarify. There are two things here 1) The Law and 2) The Regulations. The law requiring public school equivalency has existed in New York for over a hundred years. Until last week, there were no regulations specifying how to enforce that law. Nevertheless, the law was still technically mandatory. And it could have been enforced even without regulations. But it was never really enforced. Last week the Board of Regents created regulations describing how to enforce this 100+ year old law. But the law never changed between last year, prior to these regulations, and next year after these regulations kick in. The regulations only regulate how to enforce the law. And the law itself (forget the regulations) does not say only some school subjects are part of the public school equivalency requirement. It clearly indicates substantially everything taught in public schools is included in the law requiring equivalency in private schools. It makes no distinction between science education and sex education. It simply says whatever is taught in the local public school system that the private school is located in.
Again, a law is mandatory and enforceable even if there are no regulations. And if regulations are created, the regulations never changes the underlying law. Only the legislature can make changes to the law.
“i’m not objecting to Satmar… I couldn’t care less.” (I fixed your typo.)
Are you saying that you don’t care if the government drops this whole issue and continues to let Yeshivas give 90 minutes of math and low-level English, and nothing else? If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?
ENS:
A. The State cannot legally deny an entitlement program (note the name) such as TANF or SNAP, for unrelated reasons. That would effectively deny food for the children. And the parents of the 100,000 “truants” don’t pay their monetary penalties, they’ll jail them en masse? Be real.
B. 1) KJ and NS are little rural towns with very limited populations. Data from those little towns can ONLY be applied to residents of those towns. You cannot extrapolate data from there and apply it to 200,000 other “Jews” in the State simply because, hey, those towns are supposedly the same kind of Jews. No court would accept such antisemitic tropes. That would be, lhavdil, like applying the criminal rate of African Americans in Washington, DC to blacks nationwide. Hey, they’re black and they’re black.
You have no data on welfare acceptance rates of Jews in New York statewide because such data does not exist. There’s no reason to believe it is any higher than African Americans who went to public school, and it most likely is much less.
2) a Are you implying that the African American community is a failed one? b. Why are AA more “economically disadvantaged” than us? Only an answer acceptable and provable in court is worth answering.
3) The Supreme Court’s decision in Yoder does not at all rest upon, or even mention, the welfare rate among the Amish. (And, again, there’s no data showing Orthodox Jews are taking welfare more than average, in any event.)
C. The fact of the matter is that Chareidim AND Chasidim make more per working person than the average American as a whole, forget about African Americans. The only reason even in KJ/NS the official data shows so-called “poverty”, is because they have LARGE FAMILY SIZES K”H, i.e. many children per family with two parent households. Since the poverty statistics are based on family size, a family in KJ or NS with two parents and eight children (i.e. a family size of 10 — many are k’h even larger) where the father, who is a Yeshiva graduate is earning $90,000 a year is counted as “impoverished”, whereas the single parent family with two kids and a dog (family size of three) elsewhere in the middle of New York State, where the parent, who graduated from the local public school, earns $55,000 a year, is considered middle class.
In other words, the Yeshiva graduates are earning more than the public school graduates, but the Yeshiva graduates are counted as poor due to large families, whereas the public school graduates earning less are counted as middle class. This renders use of these “statistics” effectively meaningless as a gauge whether Yeshiva graduates, with their much less time for secular studies, are earning any less than public school graduates.
In fact, EVEN IF there’s a higher welfare rate among some Jews, it is because they have larger families that make them eligible for welfare even though they earn more money than non-welfare gentile families. Nothing to do with a lack of a proper secular education.
In the real world we know the Yeshiva graduates, even the Chasidish ones, are on average earning much more than the average American. But in any event, there are no existing statistics to prove it either way in court. So the argument will fail.
Yeshiva University Freezes All Student Clubs to Avoid Recognizing LGBTQ+ Group
Well, well, well. Looks like YU found a little bit of a conscience after all this time. At least for now.
The better question is why didn’t YU shut down all their clubs at their graduate schools over the last 25 years, in order legally to shut down the toeiva clubs.
Gedolim BLAST Those Who Turn Selichos Into “Evening of Entertainment”
Looks like someone in the CR was four years ahead of the curve.
Perhaps it was he who brought this spreading tumor to the attention of Gedolei Yisroel.
They’re too embarrassed to admit it.
Prince Harry’s father is James Hewitt.
Again discussing the stem cells debate?
Different judaica types as in Seforim stores?
ENS: There’s no data whatever demonstrating that Chareidim use welfare any more proportionally than African Americans who go to public schools. Therefore your insinuation that the Supreme Court would treat these Jews worse than their decision for the Amish, or that the Amish case, which is now the law of the land, is for some reason inapplicable to these Jews, is laughable.
“So they aren’t compliannt. whats the problem. I have no problem with lack of compliance ”
If you have no objection to Yeshivas not being in compliance with the public school equivalency law, then just as you have no objection to Yeshiva Darchei Torah not teaching sex education, to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English up to par.
Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding? I’m not convinced the failing isn’t your own rather than those you blame. (Said only with the greatest brotherly love… really.)
Did you bother to read what you quoted or did you simply fail to understand the import of the words you copy and pasted? From your quotations: “allows… to choose from various pathways… through one of the following pathways…”
Regents is just one of multiple options to prove it. They can choose an option without Regents. Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam. Not in other subjects that are required. There are subjects that do not have a Regents exam.
Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. These new regs do that for the first time.
Giving the Regents exams will now demonstrate substantially equivalent instruction to students in the subject of the Regents. But not all subjects have a Regents exam. The law, as it has been for the last 100 plus years, requires substantially equivalent instruction to students that is given in the local public school system. That remains unchanged. They still require equivalent instruction in substantially all public school subjects. If you deny this fact, then any school can say we choose not to teach math. If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school. If you can say they can skip sex education even though it’s taught in public school, they’ll be able to then say in that case we can skip math too, even though it is taught in public schools.
ubiq, do you make up bubbe maaisas as you go along and call them the facts, to fit and attempt to support and shore up your mistaken notions and incorrect assertions? Your 8:12am post (#2125303) takes the cake as your most inventive. (For this thread; over the years in other threads you’ve gone even further.)
1. Public school equivalency is NOT defined by offering the Regents. Nothing in the equivalency law says a blasted thing about the Regents or offering any State standardized testing for that matter.
2. What the Board of Regents voted on earlier this week are REGULATIONS, *NOT*’ the LAW. FYI — laws are only enacted by the legislature, no one else in NYS.
3. The NYS law mandates private schools must teach equivalent to what the public schools teach. As simple as that. The law makes NO DISTINCTION between math, arts, English, gym, science or sex education.
4. Even those new regulations voted on this week are NOT effective yet. It has a future effective date. As of today nothing changed regarding the public school equivalency law than what has been on the NYS law books for over the last 100 plus years.
5. The new regulations, even when they become effective, do not change the law. It merely instructs the multiple local Education Departments in the various municipalities across the State on how to enforce the law.
6. The regulations stipulate that ONE OF the methods a school can demonstrate public school equivalency is by administrating the Regents exams to their students; and IF sufficient numbers pass the Regents that will demonstrate the school is compliant for public school equivalency in those subjects that sufficient students passed the exam.
7. The new regulations also give alternative options for private schools to demonstrate public school equivalency compliance without giving the Regents. No private school is required to give their students the Regents or any other standardized tests. This has been the case until now and will remain so even with the new regulations.
To repeat and reiterate, NYS Education Law Section 3204(2) requires private schools provide full public school equivalency. There is NO DISTINCTION under the law between math, English, science, music, arts or sex education. Satmar’s deficiency in English is the same non-compliance as is Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim’s deficiency in teaching sex education that’s offered in public school. Rachmitsrivka’s deficiency in teaching science is just as bad under the law as Yeshiva Darchei Torah’s deficiency in teaching arts and music.
No Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in the entire State of New York is compliant (possibly excluding Modern Orthodox schools like Ramaz and Yeshiva of Flatbush), as their are much objectionable material from the public school, both in content and time, that it is impossible for a Torah school to be in compliance with the public school equivalency law.
P.S. My advance apologies for my strong words; you’ve done this too many times to point them out again with a poker face and neutral voice. You’re still my brother and I say all this with brotherly love.
YU is not a Jewish institution. It is anti-Jewish.
mdd1 is absolutely correct in everything he’s explained vis-a-vis Ukraine and Russia.
ubiq wrote: “The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.”Let’s correct ubiq, as what ubiq should be writing is thus:
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math, English, gym, music, arts and sex education. Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidim Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov’s do not. Therefore Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov are violating the law. You cant blame Chareidi parents for wanting their school to educate their children in sex education and all the other PUBLIC SCHOOL EQUIVALENCY as required by New York law.
Arguing that Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov have the right to not educate the children with public school equivalency as required by the law, including sex education, gym, music and arts is arguing that they don’t have to follow the law.
FTFY
mdd, do you view Ukrainians as ethnic Russians or do you consider Ukrainians to be distinct from Russians?
Avira answered exactly (and everything) that the he OP asked.
mdd, how could you ever consider the city of Lemberg (with its German name and partial Jewish, German and Polish population that was originally under the Austrian Empire, that the Soviets changed its name to Lviv after stealing it from Poland) to be Russian in any way, shape or form?
ubiq’s grossly misinformed view of how Satmar views non-Satmar Shomrei Torah uMitzvos Yidden is a parody of how some five and six year old children might think.
New York might soon find itself with 100,000 “truants” whose parents refuse to budge one inch. Let’s set how successful the District Attorney’s in New York will be in prosecuting the parents of these 100,000 truants.
ubiq: You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it. You simply assert a family can’t switch affiliations from Satmar to Bobov or Stolin etc without losing their community and uprooting their children, without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it.
As far as point “b”, if Satmar started providing a basic education at the elementary school level for math and reading, you think that would shut up most of the critics? Satmar NEVER provided a “public school equivalency” education, as the law demands, however many decades you go back. Doing so is absolutely against the essence of Satmar.
mdd, are you suggesting that we need to thank Stalin?
ubiq:
“to get a kid a basic education required by law, they should have to change theirentire lifestyle, lose their community, home friends, uproot their children.”
Three points, each independent but all important —
a. Satmar parents (while remaining Satmar) sending their boys to Vien, Chasan Sofer, Stolin or another Chasidish mosod that gives the Regents and/or otherwise has a notably more advanced secular studies program than Satmar, is not even close to a major change in lifestyle — and there’s surely no loss of community or friends (anymore than any child changing from one school to another). This IS a practical option.
b. Even if the above weren’t an option (or if you assert that it isn’t a viable difference), the fact of the matter is that being a part of the Satmar community by definition means forgoing any serious secular education. This is part and parcel of being Satmar. Just like you can’t be Satmar and still go to the movie theater to watch (even) “G” rated cartoon/animated Hollywood movies designed for children — because that’s a contradiction to being Satmar; you also cannot send your children to an Orthodox High School that is designed to get the students at an educational level to have a chance to get accepted into Harvard or other universities (whether or not they pursue that option.)
c. If the family changed to another Chasidus, say Bobov, Stolin, Vien or whatever, such a change does NOT entail “changing their entire lifestyle, losing their community, home friends, and uprooting their children.” It, too, is a viable option.
The US Supreme Court has today, on technical/procedural grounds, reversed the temporary injunction blocking the New York court order from becoming effective. As a result, YU is effective immediately now obligated under court order to implement the court injunction requiring the university “to immediately grant” the RIETS Homosexual Club “full and equal accommodations”.
Beginning tomorrow will YU/RIETS fulfill its legal obligation per the New York court injunction supporting the RIETS Homosexual Club and thereby violate the Torah *OR* tomorrow will YU not violate the Torah but rather violate New York law and a court order by refusing the implement the injunction?
What’s your choice YU — Torah or America?
ubiq, if a Satmar Chosid is unhappy with the Satmar school choices he can send his children to a non-Satmar school. If that means changing Chasiduses (and I’m not sure that is even necessary) to another, say to Vien, Bobov, Stolin, Ger, or any of dozens of other large or small Chasiduses (or try Oberlander or Yeshivish for that matter), that too is an option.
akuperma, Sweden is about to get a new government. It remains to be seen whether their NATO application will remain unchanged.
Whatever is on sale.