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To huju: Show the post to your shrink and he’ll guide you through it.
Shaigetz Aross.
Yseribus: You excel at excusing any kind of behaviors, mainly by downplaying everything in a comparative fashion (“well X isn’t as bad as Y, and they didn’t do Y!”), of these groups.
Berochim Haboim. This is hardly new.
There is technology today to even make a deep fake video of a person using his image and voice, looking exactly realistic, showing a video of him doing whatever you want him to be seen doing.
I just want to respond to DaMoshe’s absolutely false assertion that Avi Weiss was rejected by the RCA. The fact of the matter is that Avi Weiss has been a Rabbinical member of the RCA for as long as he wanted to. The RCA never kicked him out and kept renewing his membership year after year after year, as long as Avi paid his RCA membership dues. The RCA let Avi remain a member for many years after he established Open Orthodox. It was Avi himself who decided not too long ago that he wasn’t paying his RCA membership renewal. The RCA was happy to renew his membership every year.
And Mr. Weiss’ synagogue in the Bronx, “HIR”, is still a member synagogue of the Orthodox Union.
Shame on the RCA and OU.
CA: They say that “opposites attract”. I think we need to find these two gentlemen and one lady Republican shidduchim.
To huju: Your writing capabilities are on the second grade level. But that’s at a higher level than your logical abilities. I did NOT say singles are sickening; I said toeiva practitioners are.
Do you make no judgement on thieves and molesters and leave that only up to Hashem? Or do you only withhold your judgement on those who commit terrible aveiros that you do not disapprove of, such at toeiva.
The question is only rhetorical; you needn’t answer as the answer is more than obvious.
Dr. E: Despite your posts being reeking with sarcasm, it is absolutely correct that dates and dating activity should be private for tznius reasons. If two people are dating they are dating solely to determine whether they are bashert to marry each other. Until and unless such time that they get engaged, it should not be general public knowledge that they are dating.
“they note that 12% of the respondents self-identify as “open-orthodox”, and 22% as LWMO. A lot of the MO posters here exclude these groups from their own definition of Modern Orthodox.”
Avram: Isn’t that a No True Scotsman? That would be similar, perhaps, to Ultra-Orthodox excluding ganovim and molesters from their own definition of Ultra-Orthodox.
I dished this out of the spam folder and manually restored it.
Test successful.
Dofi: Do you accept what, as you referred to, the Gadol Hador, Harav Aharon Kotler, zt”l said about Modern Orthodoxy?
CTL: Thank you for sharing that vital factoid. It goes on to demonstrate how degenerate the attire of the Western, American led, culture has deteriorated to over the last 60 years.
huju: For you to strike below the belt and accuse older singles, as a group, of being feigelech actively engaged in the lowest, most sickening, terrible and sinful activity can only be described as truly psychotic on your part.
Bard, unlike ChatGPT, has current information.
White car — That read interesting. Here was its output to me for the same query you ran (“Write a poem about theyeshivaworld.com”):
In a world of endless information,
Where knowledge is at our command,
There’s a place that stands out from the rest,
A website known throughout the land.TheYeshivaWorld.com, a site so grand,
A hub of news, both big and small,
A place where you can stay informed,
And never miss a thing at all.From politics to Jewish events,
From health to finance and more,
TheYeshivaWorld.com has it all,
A wealth of information galore.The writers and reporters, so sharp and astute,
Bringing news that’s both relevant and true,
A source of information you can trust,
To keep you up-to-date and in the know.So whether you’re browsing on your phone,
Or sitting down at your desktop,
TheYeshivaWorld.com is always there,
A trusted friend in an uncertain world.So let’s give a shout out to this great site,
For all the work that it does,
For keeping us informed and entertained,
And for being a valuable part of our lives.“Modern Orthodoxy:
– looks similar to conservative Judaism”Dofi: HaGaon HaRav Ahron Kotler ZTV’K”L said exactly that. That MO tries to do the same thing as the Conservative and Reform. See my comment on the previous page providing Rav Ahron’s quote and the exact citation where you can find it in Mishnas Rebi Ahron, to verify for yourself that Rav Ahron said it.
Will you now dismiss and disparage HaGaon HaRav Ahron Kotler the same way yesterday you dismissed and disparaged HaGaon HaRav Eliezer Ginsberg?
N0m: No there are not many reasons one may choose to never marry. There are very very few such reasons. And those very few reasons are applicable to a miniscule number of people.
N0m: Look it up and get back to me with your misunderstanding or misinterpretation of it.
Can anyone share what their most complicated shailos they ran on it that it successfully answered?
WB BaalHabooze!! It’s been too long! Stick around a bit…
Why should we lower the price of dowries? Dowries have a rich, long and proper place in Jewish life from the earliest historical times in Jewish history until the present time.
huju: Did you consider that some unemployed people may be rotzchim? And may be employed as an undisclosed hitman.
Why should we lower the price of dowries? Dowries have a rich, long and proper place in Jewish life from the earliest historical times in Jewish history until the present time.
No one has yet addressed how to help those who ARE too picky become cognizant of the fact that they’re being too picky and that it is sabotaging their marriage prospects.
N0m: Take up your issue with Rav Moshe after reading the Igros Moshe(E.H. 4:60), Prohibition of opposite gender friendship.
It makes many errors. Including on common secular subjects.
CTL: The term you might be looking for is “fat finger”.
Rabbi J.B. Soloveichik in his Five Addresses clearly states that “separatist Orthodoxy” would disappear and only MO will survive. “Jewry and Judaism throughout the world” depended on the survival of this movement. Rabbi Soloveichik did not believe that he was merely helping a segment of Orthodox Jewry — he held that “the future of Torah in America” depends on following his approach. He held that the “separatist” Orthodox will die out and only YU and MO will survive. He held America was too strong for the real, pure Orthodoxy. Those who insisted on continuing the “old style” Orthodoxy would, he said, be come nothing but tourist attractions and die out eventually. What cannot be understated are the words of Rav Soloveichik, “secular culture . . . . AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”. The traditional Ultra-Orthodoxy (Rav Soloveichik refers to them as “isolationist” (sic) Orthodox, or “extreme” (sic) Orthodox) would theoretically be the best choice. But in America, it can’t survive. “Tourist attractions” he says Chareidim would end up. Clearly he was 100% mistaken.
And it was that which he said justified “Modern Orthodoxy” – survival, nothing else. If these words seem a bit difficult to understand today, you must appreciate them within the context of the prevailing secular social attitude during the time they were said, the early 1960’s. Many people were dazzled by the “new social and economic order” and even frightened about the future of Torah in America. The typical alter litvishe water carrier didn’t seem to fit in to the picture of what they imagined to be the technologically fueled, fast-paced, high-educated America.
Modern Orthodoxy was created as a response to a problem. The problem: The new world. America. Things will be different there. America is not the place for traditional Torah Orthodoxy. In the words of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik: “we would be enveloped by a new economic order. The lion’s share of Jewry would be centered in the Western world, and society would be based on science, where “the sun and the moon and the eleven stars” will radiate scientific learning and technology; where every scientific discovery will be publicized in the newspapers as the greatest sensation’ where all professions will be linked to higher education . . .it was [therefore] forbidden to rely on a continuation of the status-quo . . . great changes were about to occur in Jewish life for which we would have to be prepared.” (Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik, Five Addresses, p.31) “There is secular culture, great and powerful technology creating wonders and changing the foundations of our life . . . This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT – [but] finally we will have to relate to it.
This was the Modern Orthodox mind-set in the early 1960’s. Ultra-Orthodoxy will be swallowed up by the all-too-powerful American culture, and the “new type of Talmid Chacham”, the secularly educated, religious Zionist will “conquer” the new world. (“Conquest” is a word often used in Rav Soloveichik’s lectures). That was then. Before long, the tune began to change. Yeshivos, chareidi-style yeshivos flourished and grew. Kolleim, yes, Kolleleim, where married men with families would “shut themselves behind walls” and spend their entire day immersed in Torah, began to spring up all over the country. Ultra-Orthodox Kiruv organizations were succeeding in attracting even the most Americanized youths. People laughed at Rav Aharon Kotler when he said that American students would be willing to go to Yeshiva full time with no college. Now look at who’s laughing at whom. Where we used to see articles announcing the pending death of “ultra orthodoxy”, we saw, in the 1980’s, articles by such Modern Orthodox spokesmen as Rabbi Dr. Emanuel Rackman, of Fifth Avenue Synagogue on Manhattan and later Bar Ilan University in Israel, decrying the spirit of “Ultra Orthodox Triumphalism”. When the ArtScroll series of English Torah classics came out, we saw an article, I believe it was in Tradition magazine, complaining about how ArtScroll, by using good English and high quality production, gives the false impression that they are really “Modern”, when in reality they are “ultra orthodox” in disguise.
DaMoshe: I’ll give you sources, citations and maare mekomos. You, and everyone else, can look these up in the Seforim Hakedoshim yourselves. Mishnas Rabi Aharon is in any Shul and Bais Medrash worth its salt. No need to take my or anyone else’s word for it. These aren’t my sayings, but rather the sayings of Gedolei Yisroel.
Here we go:
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.
Rav Shimon Schwab ZTV’L writes (Mitteilungen, Bulletin of Khal Adas Yeshurun April/May 1989): “Sometimes the Modern Orthodox halachic foolishness which is flirting with the anti-Torah establishment, may border on heresy. This is all part and parcel of the spiritual confusion of the dark ages in which we happen to live.”
Rav Shimon Schwab ZTV’L (Selected Essays pp.160-162): “However, in addition to the legitimate shitos we have discussed, there is yet another, more modern version in vogue called “Torah Umaada”. Apparently this is [supposedly] identical with Torah Im Derech Eretz, especially since both claim a belief in the priority of Torah over maada. Both seems exactly alike, but like two left gloves which cannot be worn together, they don’t fit! . . . “To summarize, Torah im derech eretz without Austritt is considered treif l’chol hadeios! Even if you call it Torah Umaada.”
Rav Shimon Schwab ZTV’L (Selected Essays p. 89): “Let me single out two examples where silence is not permitted . . . “The first item is Modern Orthodoxy . . . most of it has become stale, stagnant, and fossilized, and we could not call it modern anymore. “In the meantime, the contemporary generation has advanced and risen to higher standards, Boruch Hashem. We are witnessing the rise of a new type of American Orthodoxy. This is the Yeshiva and Bais Yaakov generation . . . This is the new generation of Bnei Torah and baalei batim who do not intend to stand still and remain satisfied with a tiny yarlmuka or a teaspoonful of Jewish knowledge…They are marching on! And so we are zocheh, Baruch Hashem, to prestigious yeshivos gedolos in America and American-born Roshei Yeshiva , rabbanim, and poskim. “Today, our [Chareidi] youth in America is the real modern Orthodox, if you must use this expression, and they are marching forward. Whether they belong to chassidishe, yeshivishe, or Torah im derech eretz variety, they are marching forward, step by step, to a more wakeful form of avodas hashem. . . Their greatest pride and joy and nachas consists of children who are talmidei chachamim, bnei torah and bnos Torah.”
Rav Shimon Schwab ZTV’L (Selected Essays pp.90-91): “And now we address ourselves to our chaveirim bedeah, our achim bemitzvos of the Rabbinical Council of America: Ad masai? How long do you want to remain a branch, without becoming part of the tree? . . . We say to our achim b’mitzvos [in the RCA], “have Rachmonus with yourselves, and lemaan Hashem, part company with those who have given obscene semichah to to’evah clergymen” . . . Have rachmonus with yourselves, and break off your professional relationship with those who, for instance, consider Yishu HaNotzri merely a failed moshiach . . .We implore you . . . to part company with those gravediggers of Torah. I know it is a painful subject but it is unavoidable . . . We call on you to join us [Chareidim, who are] the true Modern Orthodoxy [Rav Schwab is referring to previous statements of his that MO is today outdated and “anything but modern”], which is a generation of sincere mevakshei Hashem”.
Everyone agrees that *some* people are too picky and, as a result, they are delayed many years in getting married. That being the case, and universally acknowledged, what SHOULD a good person trying to help get married an older single who is too picky, resulting in his singlehood, do in order to help him?
If he refrains from politely and lovingly pointing out to him or her that he or she is too picky, and it is resulting in their remaining single, then that single person may never stop being too picky and, thereby, indefinitely sabotage their own married prospects.
The only solution is for someone to help the single understand that they are being too picky.
Dorah: It is Halachicly assur for a man and a woman to be friends with each other. Dating isn’t a friendship. It is a process to determine whether the other person is your bashert.
“You guys know that the 9 is next to the 0 right?”
Wow, CA, I guess I’m not the only one still using a rotary phone.
Rocky: We live in an age of unprecedented affluence. We are already giving tzedaka to causes that there’s no Halachic obligation to give to. But we need to first give those that the community does have a Halachic obligation to give to. One such obligatory cause is giving people to continue living how they are accustomed to.
N0m: What you are relating about mixed swimming from a historical Torah observant communities perspective is a complete canard, fictitious and not based on even a shred of truth.
I hope this thread is either a joke or a bad attempt at trolling.
boyfriend/girlfriend is a disgusting terminology for any Jew, especially one who purportedly is Torah observant.
How can anyone who isn’t a Chasan/Kallah (and aren’t married) even dream of calling themselves that?!
There is no other terminology because it is highly improper to call them a thing or to allude that they have any improper relationship, which giving them a joint term would clearly imply.
You shouldn’t even be making public that you are dating her, as that’s no third-party’s business and it wouldn’t be tznius to let any one know.
That’s all before the question whether you’re even “dating” too long before you need to make a decision one way or another.
“@ujm The people who you affectionately call “LWMO” made up the vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” for decades.”
Yseribus: This is, historically, factually absolutely incorrect. The vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” during, let’s say, Rav Moshe’s time were most certainly not what is now called LWMO. They were closer to what’s now RWMO. They never had the slightest thought of supporting women “rabbis”, women egalitarian “minyan”, supporting homosexuals, etc. Au contraire, they were very opposed to all that and considered that garbage to be completely non-Orthodox, and only to be found in the Reform and Conservative movements.
“and most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox… So I don’t see the existence of “LWMO” as an issue that needs to be addressed, since it seems to be resolving itself without outside “help”…”
That’s a tragedy, not something that is “resolving itself”. What could be more tragic than a formerly Orthodox family, even if the extent of their Orthodoxy was Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha, now dropping the little Orthodoxy that they did maintain and no longer identifying or practicing any Orthodox beliefs and practices such as Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha?
The very reason that, as you said, “most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox” is directly because they were led to believe by their MO leaderships that all the rest of the Taryag Mitzvos were optional, and only practiced by the “fanatics” known as Chareidim.
They hardly have any converts in their membership. You must be mistaking their BTs, who used to be secular born Jews that joined them.
“If you can’t afford a chasunah, you should not be in shidduchim.”
This is a purely gentile viewpoint that is the antithesis of Torah Judaism, where Halacha mandates marriage even for the poor who are unable to afford a wedding affair.
Rocky: It is a Halachic obligation to give tzedaka to a person so that he can live the life he’s accustomed to. A rich man who lost his fortune must be given enough tzedaka so that he can once again live in the wealthy style he is accustomed to. In Eretz Yisroel, since they’re accustomed to giving a Chasan an apartment, it is obligatory to give them tzedaka so that they can do so.
Yseribus: Teaching women Gemara in a curriculum kneged halacha is also an actual direct aveira.
RSRH was the polar antithesis of MO.
Yseribus: The LWMO, who are mechallel almost everything in the Torah are a large majority of the MO population, whereas the RWMO are a distinct minority of the MO population. That’s certainly the case with the national/international MO communities. But even within YU the left-wing significantly outnumbers the religious right-wing.
CTL: You just solved the dilemma posed in the title of this thread. Thank you!
Dorah: If all you could afford was a wedding in your Shul’s social hall catered by the local butcher on Main Street, that’s the Chasuna you would provide for your child? If the only way you could “upgrade” from that de minimis wedding was to accept donations from other Yidden, you’d refuse it and simply have your wedding in the Shul basement?
“I can get behind increased government oversight on diet/exercise etc”
Next the government can get into the shidduch scene and have their shadchanim making shidduchim.