yankel berel

good to hear that ujm and somejew support katan’s parroting

clear indication that that all of their own explanations are also a result of their blind non thinking adherence to literal reading of a totally anachronistic minority view .
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Distorting my post .

will repeat :
Heard the following numerous times from literal readers of vayoel moshe

“even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad.”

this is a true reflection of that school and even katan in his heart agrees to this, because you will see :

HE WILL NOT DENY THIS !
he might sidestep it , but he will not deny this .

—

same with the second point
Heard the following also , numerous times from literal readers of vayoel moshe :

“when faced with a binary choice of
either chv’sh the wholesale slaughter of all inhabitants of EY versus enlistment ,
they would choose the former”

and again , proof in the pudding

this is a true reflection of that school and even katan in his heart agrees to this, because you will see :

HE WILL NOT DENY THIS !
he might sidestep it , but he will not deny this .

.

Only a fool can continue to claim that the oaths are undisputedly binding,
ignoring clear tshuvot avnei nezer and hashmatat kol haposkim hamekubalim lehalacha
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@ZSK

zsk is sidestepping ,

read his non answer.

thank you.

chiefshmerel’s approach is a breath of fresh air
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the despicable murderers of chevron are the ones who are responsible .

lo tirtsach is said for them too

they hacked people to death

let’s not forget that

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it is legitimate however to discuss what the jews could/ should do to minimize bloodshed

but we cannot forget for one moment who is responsible for barbaric murder – the barbaric murderer himself.
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@square

@katan

don’t have karyane de’igrata with me now, but will bln quote it
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aaq:
I am saying that there is simultaneous PR that lomdei Torah need to be protected and value of learning, but then not allowing anyone who is member of the community to join. This is using the crown of Torah for something else.
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that’s what I meant by reality shifting.

in the beginning anyone who was on the vaad hayeshivot list, was deferred yearly.
all others were drafted
this was not enshrined in law
rather as a policy by the minister of defense who had executive jurisdiction over the drafting process

this policy was due to an agreement in 1949 between r ym levin from the aguda and ben g who was israels first pm.
this policy stayed in force for 50 years until it was declared unlawful by the SC in 1999 even though there was no actual law on the books contradicting this arrangement.

rav shach as president of vaad hayeshivot for much of this period , was particular to scrap anyone who was not learning full time from the list
maintaining that that such individuals were to be considered rodfim if they continued using the status of ‘torato umnato’ to defer their draft.

rodfim in the sense that they could call into question this whole arrangement with the ministry of defense and thereby endanger the real full time lomdei torah
once those individuals were scrapped, they became eligible to be drafted the following year
not only those individuals were scrapped , but even real full time learners who were unmarried and took out a drivers license which was against the then policy of the vaad hayeshivot , they were also scrapped, and subsequently were liable to be drafted .

in 2002 the Knesset passed by 51 to 41 , the Tal law, enshrining unlimited yearly deferments for full time learners into law .
this law was invalidated by the SC in 2012 , bringing us to the present situation where the SC and the AG are forcing the ministry of defense to draft every haredi in the name of equality , while ignoring the Arab Israeli and Bedouin youth.

as the SC on its own initiative, arrogated more and more power to itself on the expense of the legislature , and as the SC saw that the knesset consistently failed to act , the SC grew bolder and arrogated to itself the power , to cancel any executive decision it deems ‘unreasonable’ , any law it deems ‘unreasonable’ and then slowly extended this even to so called ‘basic laws’.

the SC used its newly acquired extended powers to meddle in army practices and swiftly imposed any emerging ‘woke fad’ into army discipline , making the army even more inhospitable to haredi recruits. Which led to more and more haredi individuals from the non learning cohort to avoid conscription .

In addition , the SC meddling into the draft process led to legal vacuums where the old framework was struck from the books before a new regulation was put into place and took the power away from the vaad hayeshivot which was practically for half a century the ultimate arbiter of who could or could not defer .

the result of this SC meddling was the demise of a 50 year long working arrangement , and the SC invalidation of the Tal law ended the other attempt to democratically codify a new working arrangement , add to this toxic mix the SC’s active imposition of every possible left wing woke position and that’s how we have the polarization and dead end we find ourselves in now.

without fully considering the power of the army and its discipline to enforce a ‘cultural melting pot’ [i.e. forced secularization] this picture is not complete. RZ educators are on record saying that about 30 % of their youth shed themselves from their religion during their service. They claim that this is a price they are willing to pay for their shitah.

for haredim this is totally unconceivable .
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katan :
Had the Zionists never invaded, the land would have presumably been ruled by the Christians, with individual religious councils for Jews and, liHavdil, Muslims, living peacefully in their respective areas as they did prior to the Zionist invasion.
—

this is an excellent example of katans ignorance of world events

katan is still stuck in the 1800’s where colonial powers rule and indigenous populations still live ‘peacefully’ under their rule.

this is anachronistic.

we live in the 2000’s and solutions from the 1800’s are a total joke.

I challenge katan with one example of Britain ruling any country around the globe with the population of that country practicing a different religion and with a totally different culture …

Nu mr katan … we are waiting for your answer ….
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sorry there was a typo in the previous post

will resend the corrected version:

another unanswered question directed at somejew katan and ujm

how come you paskan lema’aseh like maharal that pikuach nefesh is NOT docheh the oaths , when

tur ,plus
sh’a YD 157:1, plus
nosei keilim

clearly paskan the opposite ?
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the oaths are mechayev everone is undisputed ???

undisputed ???
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@katan
.Steipler clearly permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a fact clearly stated in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1 ,

this has nothing at all to do with r shacter .

read it yourself in karyana de’igrata.
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Katan and somejew clearly said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course.

They stated unambiguously that IDF’s actions should be stopped immediately and that this is yehareig veal yaavor .

translated to good plain English : even if innocent people would die as result of IDF stopping to act , they should still stop.

katan and somejew did not put a number on those people dying , so it follows that even if all yehudim in EY would die as a result, IDF should still stop.

after a lot of pressure, the source of such a far reaching psak was unveiled : it is a peirush of maharal in his agadic sefer netsach yisrael perek 24.

however what somejew and katan have failed to do , even after a lot of pressure , is to explain why they choose to paskan like mharal in pikuach nefesh hachamura , when said agadic maharal is CONTRADICTED by tur, sh’a and nosei keilim in YD 157:1

who state that for all averot, besides the three hamurot , a Jew is not to sacrifice any Jewish life.

meaning that pikuach nefesh is docheh all other averot , including the [so called] avera of the oaths

this has been repeated on these pages multiple times but without any answer ….

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only a fool can continue to claim that the fact that the oaths are binding lehalacha lema’aseh, is undisputed …..
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Litvish do not have a ‘problem’ with lubavitch .

it official habad , who are claiming outlandish claims .

official habad meaning their leader himself

like nevu’a

like mashiach

like belittling chazon ish [purim 1956]

and the list goes on

you cannot come with major claims and then expect immunity from scrutiny

this is obvious

the scrutiny is proportionate to the claim

the bigger the claim the bigger the scrutiny

and the scrutiny is applicable to the source of the claim

the leader makes the claim

so the leader is opening himself up to scrutiny

its a package deal

they cannot have the cake and also eat it

although I generally concur with yakov yosef in most cases , here I disagree
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another unanswered question directed at somejew katan and ujm

how come you paskan lema’aseh like maharal that pikuach nefesh is docheh the oaths , when

tur ,plus
sh’a YD 157:1, plus
nosei keilim

clearly paskan the opposite ?
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@somejew

it’s impossible that you smell other people’s dishonesty when you yourself are enveloped by the smell of your own dishonesty.

smelly people cannot smell other people.
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you do not know me at all – how could you state that I don’t care about what sh’a and avnei nezer say .

that statement of yours is obviously as unfounded as all of your other statements and interpretations of the torah

and as unfounded as your interpretations of the reality in front of us , which is essential in every other she’ela in the torah .

someone who does not know how a new appliance works, is totally unqualified to rule on its permissibility for shabbat even if he knows hilchot shabbat ba’al peh.

same here .

—

Lol.
you yourself mr somejew vehemently argued that hashmatat tur , hasmatat mishneh torah , hashmatat sh’a , hasmatat nosei keilim does not count ….

yet hashmatat rabbanim who do not quote avnei nezer suddenly does count …

who exactly in your opinion should bring avnei nezer and did not ?

Rav shlome zalman auerbach ?
who is documented directing specific individuals in specific circumstances to enlist ?
who took rav kooks haskama for his sefer maadanei erets and put it before rav zonnefelds haskama ?
he should have quoted avnei nezer ? and since he doesn’t, its proof that he disagrees ?

the rebbeim of gur who are known to be noheg lemaaseh like avnei nezer the gdol haposkim in poland , they should have quoted him ? and since they don’t, its proof that they disagree ?

or rav elyashiv whose mesader kidushin was rav kook and was known to be mocheh whenever someone spoke disparagingly about him , he should have quoted avnei nezer ? and since he doesn’t, its proof that he disagrees ?

listen, I am not a hasid of rav kook and I do not learn his agada sfarim , and I agree that he was controversial and understand the hitnagdut against him
but b’h I am not that narrowminded to totally deny the existence of approaches I disagree with

avnei nezer wrote what he wrote .
avnei nezer cannot somehow be dismissed .
avnei nezer was bothered by hashmatat haposkim

if somejew doesnt like it , then he should grow up.

are there holkim on avnei nezer ? yes.

is avnei nezer therefore batel umevutal ? no.

cant see what’s so difficult , that somejew has to start with personal accusations and all sorts of dirty intimidations of kfira , biters of talmidei hahamim etc etc

somejew should keep his arguments to the matter at hand .

he will do his own reputation a service .
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@ katan

I have quoted it on this thread before .

FYI. will quote it again :

I promised a quote from AVNEI NEZER that oaths are not lhalacha .

Here we go :
AVNEI NEZER YD siman taf nun dalet from se’if katan mem dalet and onwards [pages 287 – 288 – 289]

in more detail se’if katan nun :

‘ … and now it is good and not questionable why rambam [in his halacha sefer mishneh torah] and all poskim did not bring the oaths lahalacha , because those oaths are not lehalacha , because the person himself his body was not commanded to keep the oaths … thats why the poskim did not bring the oaths’

in short – shitat avnei nezer is that the oaths were said to the shoresh neshama , not to the guf .

so they are not obligatory lehalacha.

the guf, if it would be close to the neshama , which is close to HKBH , would instinctively follow the oaths .

and then merit special close hashgacha from HKBH.

if for whatever reason the guf does not follow the oaths , that’s a SIGN that the guf is not close and not in sync with its neshama .

therefore the guf loses its special merit for hashgacha pratit and reverses to a lesser level called hashgacha klalit.

but this is clear according to AVNEI NEZER – there is no halachik obligation whatsoever resulting from the oaths

and it is equally clear from his words

that this is the reason none of the accepted halacha sefarim mention the oaths

ad kan the summary of divrei ,the gdol haposkim AVNEI NEZER zatsal.
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Again sidestepping by katan .

I will reframe the q .
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eliyahu hanavi promises that this person will not be shmadded .

Is it mutar for this particular person to join or not , and why ?
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To Katan:
You can make up whatever stories you want, you can even make poskim like shulhan aruch and avnei nezer totally disappear .
The IDF is shmad for the people actually smadded and the people liable to be shmadded. For the other people it is not shmad.
So for the other people it is mutar.

In addition , the issues of the three oaths are not applicable to the IDF as it is clear as day to anyone to whom reality matters one bit, that IDF laying down its weapons , is chvsh a death sentence for untold number of our own brothers.

Therefore we can summarize that the so called Zionist army is , besides osek in the hatzala of klal yisrael , is also osek in three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmad

And your nonsense about the oaths is just that. The major Poskim throughout the ages, like tur shulhan aruch and nosei keilim, have ruled that the oaths are not in force, because they learnt the relevant gemara like avnei nezer.

The oaths are clearly not in force halachically , which is why the overwhelming majority of haredi talmidei hahamim clearly act that way .

.

RSZ’A’s advice that this person should enlist is well known .
Letsorech that person’s high profile leadership of this haredi organisation RSZA told him to enlist.

this was not advice for rabim , only privately to that person who asked .

but to be over on an issur which is yehareig ve’al yaavor , even as advice in a private manner , it still remains an absolute no no.

RSZA clearly was of the opinion that serving in idf [then !] is not a clear issur

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somejew responds to all types of people on these pages

he is not bodek whether they are amharatsim or meisitim

but when he is confronted with mechaber and nosei keilim who write bepashtut not like him, then

suddenly he becomes ‘hesitant to respond’ ….

—

sh’a YD 157 : 1
All averot besides the three , [if betsin’a] he should transgress and not die [because pikuach nefesh is docheh the the avera] .

according to maharal, pikuach nefesh is not docheh the shavu’ot .

that was the reason somejew paskaned that fighting in idf is forbidden even if as a result of not fighting, it’s sure that yehudim will die chv’sh.

Sh’a who says p/n is docheh shavu’ot , CONTRADICTS maharal .

Simple.

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Ah , according to somejew I am either a meisit or an am haarets

Why ?

Because I dare to give voice to established haredi non satmar rabbanim and talmidei hahamim.

Who happen to be the majority of klal yisrael.

I hope somejew doesnt consider them a meisit or an a’h ….

I have been called by somejew : a kofer , a biter of t’ch , and some other nice ‘compliments’ … .
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As usual , somejew and katan are taking rightful causes, blow them up , distort them , and then claim that their corrupted one is the only version of Judaism around.

The fight with z is a valid one .

The portrayal of z as if it were xtianity is nothing more than a grotesque distortion of Judaism.

Somejew and katan are USING righteous and valid grievances in order to do some convenient soul snatching …..
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@qwerty
its possible that even rambam will agree as maybe its nature will change and start to regurgitate its food