yankel berel

@haleivi
“Yes, calling someone’s Rebbe a lightweight is a heavy attack. Perhaps you don’t understand the relationship of a Chossid to their Rebbe, but it should be obvious that it is strong.”
—–
No one would call someone else’s rebbi a lightweight just like that .
I can come up with a long list of people who COULD be called lightweight . But wonder above wonder , no one calls them that on this thread.
Why not ?
Kavod habriyot . Lashon hara. Motsi Shem ra . Mevayesh pnei havero . Etc.
All are valid reasons and am yisrael are kdoshim b’h.

This case , however is fundamentally different .
There is a concerted effort here to force onto Am Yisrael a Mashiach . With all type of outlandish, bizarre and misplaced claims .
This is a multi-decade effort which takes many forms and shapes .
Amongst the claims made – documented and verifiable – , some of them I personally heard from respectable mainstream card carrying members of habad.

“Our Rebbi is greater than Moshe Rabenu. ”
“All other Rebbes and rabanim are Klipat hashum when compared to him . ”
“Someone who does not accept our rebbi , his neshama is in the clutches of the sitra acher. ”

The people who undertook this concerted effort to push such delusional statements on to the public , are the ones who opened themselves up to the public square , and should be prepared to undergo a fact based ,open and honest evaluation by the very public on whom these assessments are being pushed .

This analysis of a public persona did not happen in a vacuum .It is merely a reaction .
A reaction to the previous action of crowning a M onto the WHOLE BODY of Yehudim .
Of a previous action of crowning a Nasi HADOR . On top of an entire generation .
Of a proclamation that after 2000 years hiatus of no nevua , since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , prophesy has returned .

This is major stuff .
This a once in 2000 years occurrence .
Sorry , , no, a once in a world history occurrence .

If you make those sort of claims – it is self-understood that you open yourself to public scrutiny .
You cannot make these sort of earth shattering claims [an understatement] and expect immunity.

Immunity from open minded , fact based scrutiny .
Hope that made it clear – Scrutiny does NOT mean hate . It just that – scrutiny .
edited 
.

@menachem
I did not see those posts . Pl realize that my posts are not published immediately . [Apparently they need to be checked .] All posts are”checked”
So there is some time between my writing and its appearance .
Second of all, I have no particular interest in the MO vs haredi debate .
I barely read those posts.

When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?
Don’t they realize that usage of the hate excuse , only showcases the weakness of their arguments ?

@sechel
1] All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .

His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .

They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .

Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .

If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .

2] all that is besides the controversial utterances , shitot and youth from the rebbi of habad. Which I would prefer to leave out here .

Hello ?

Yb
“Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?”

I have no idea [CS]
——
You are not being honest . Although you promised honesty .
You would defend the Habad line to the tee.
Just like you are doing now .
Without any regard for facts, reality and common sense.

==================================================================
Just to make sure I have you right, you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then?
[CS]
——
They did not see the Rebbi of the habad hasidim as a candidate for M because ….

1] for the last 2 thousand years yidden NEVER looked for ‘candidates’ . Full Stop.
The few instances some looked and FELL for [bogus] candidates, it invariably resulted in DISASTER.
This whole idea of ‘looking for candidates’ is UNHEARD OF in normative yahadut , and is a newfangled notion, introduced by habad in the last 60 years AS A TOOL for the tolerance / acceptance of “the one Asher habad hafets biyekaro”.
This is CRYSTAL CLEAR to any unbiased observer.

2] The Great Deception which habad attempted to use ,to make their leader palatable and tolerated as M by other Orthodox Jews .

For many decades habad , encouraged milema’ala , steadfastly denied any notion of attempting to crown their leader as M .
Anyone accusing Habad of the above was committing a blood libel , no less .
This was [supposedly] a MALEVOLENT SHEKER , stemming from nothing more than hate and prejudice , from midot ra’ot , from a two hundred years old blind vendetta against the originators of hasidut .
From people who [supposedly] wore tfillin pesulim , who are propped up with ga’ava and ego , and said ga’ava and ego were the sole reason why they were groundlessly accusing innocent ,selfless habadi’s of promotion of their Manhig .
Those accusations were [supposedly] BASELESS and those accusations themselves [based on the fact they were baseless] were used as ironclad proof of the malevolence of the accusers , no matter their number or their status.
.
Everyone knows how that turned out .
During the four years of Giluy Mashiach [1990 – 1994] , the Great Deception was uncovered in all its glory .
The so called ‘blood libel’ turned out to be a case of Ezehu Haham HaRo’e Et HaNolad.
The ‘malevolent sheker’ turned out to be grounded in fact and reality.
The whole idea of ga’ava , ego , midot ra’ot driven false accusations , sprinkled with unsubtantiated tfillin psulim allegations , melted totally under the harsh glare of the sun consisting of the new reality of messianic drivel and frenzy ,clearly directed [again] milema’ala.
.
If all that is not enough , then what is ?
.
When the Mashiach Amiti will come ,we will not need gimmicks ,nor great deceptions, nor will we need glib answers or wholesale change of topic [as replacements for answers] , nor will we need hazakot al ta’amula shelo hozeret rekam .
.
We do not have to worry how it is going to work .
It is not our business .
HKBH bihvodo uve’atsmo , not melubash beguf , will make it work .
He created the world , He gave the Torah , He looked and looks after the Yehudim in Galut .
The same RBSH’O Who did all of the above , will effect the Ge’oula HA’AMITIT , without candidacies and without any of our own ‘tricks’ .
Bechol Yom Achakeh

LO !

Lo , and not anyone else.

This the position of yahadut immemorial . And it will remain so .
Yishtabah Shemo.

@sechel

to really think that Rav Shach would send a talmid to the Rebbi of the habad hasidim – like you obviously claim :
is similar to deny the existence of the sun in broad daylight.

Which sadly is the modus operandi of the habad apologists whenever faced with evidence contradicting their propaganda aims .
.
Which explains one [of the many reasons] reason why you guys lost and are continuously losing your heskat kashrut .

@CS

@sechel
I know for a fact the Rav Shach considered the Rebbi of Habad a heretic , At least that’s what he stated in public .
I happen to know because a close relative who I would trust blindly, was there and heard it from his mouth personally .
Maybe RS exaggerated for a tsorech , so that his talmidim should stay away from him [permitted according to Hafets Haim]
Or maybe not .
Either way he would not send any of his talmidim to habad for kabala explanations.
That much is clear .
Clear as day.
As clear as the fact that Habad itself unanimously advocated [pre 94] that M is from the living only …

@CS
As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.

But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.
[CS]
=======================================================================
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE .
I was alive then and followed EVERY PRONOUNCEMENT from 770 in real-time .
Including the articles by habad rabbanim and mashpi’im.
That was NOT the rationale .

It was very simply – Based on the NORMATIVE JEWISH BELIEF that mashiach , ONCE HE STARTED could not die [in any shape or form] , otherwise he would be proven as Mashiach Sheker.
.
You are just repeating PROPAGANDA .
And blindly so.
.

@Arso
No , I dont think that having Meshugaas is an impediment to being a true oved hashem .
It maybe a corruption in hashkafa , and a waste and misdirection of energy, time and resources.
And it might have negative consequences and flow on effects .
But I would be dan them as a Shogeg [or even as a Ta’a bidvar Mitsva , who is patur of a korban if he is mistakenly aiming for osek bidvar mitsvah at the time of the averah action. [mishnah end of ch 19 in Shabbat]
Anyway I cannot ,and neither can any basar vadam, judge a person .
That is reserved for the Bor’ei Olam Himself [Rambam]

@ CS
I meant I found the name of a sefer that addresses the Ramban mentioned, but I’m going to give my source in this info a break so I’m not pressing it for now. In any case, aside from the Gemara, there’s the abarbanel and Sdei Chemed who refer to moshiach min hameisim positivelys well. Rashi is only one mefaresh on the Gemara and not Halacha lmaase.
[CS]
—————————————————————
All the mefarshim who speak about mashiach min hameitim [even when it is clear that this their kavana] are speaking about someone who has not been publicised as M before , has experienced thiyat hametim , and now starts from the beginning to be go’el klal yisrael.
Once they STARTED AND THEY SUBSEQUENTLY DIE ,its game over .

That is the PASHTUT of their explanation .
Thats why Rambam says that if M is killed that’s proof that he is not .
That’s why Raman says thats how the Jews know that the notsri was an impostor .
That’s why during the whole history of Klal Yisrael, this was considered NORMATIVE JUDAISM .
AND THATS WHY HABAD THEMSELVES – THEIR RABANIM AND MASHPI’IM , all without fail , PROCLAIMED IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE WORLD , from 91 – 94 that it is KEFIRA in the 13 ikarei emuna to entertain THE POSSIBILITY OF Rmm’S dying before fully accomplishing the ge’ula.

THE GREATEST SIGN OF THE UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE OF THIS PASHTUT ARE THE LAST 2 LINES.

Why did habad [then] claim that is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die ?
They would be on much safer ground , claiming that their leader is M ,without precluding his death ?

Why ?

AL KORCHACH – even they did not want to go against the pashtut of our mesorah , against the pashtut of the rishonim .

Question to THE HONEST CS : please an answer to this question ?

An answer , please . Not a sidestep .

Not , I have an answer but will not share it now .

Not , I am looking for a sefer which deals with it .

Not , the mitnagdim are not any better .

Not , wholesale ignoring of the question , hoping people will forget .

AN ANSWER >

@CS
To be an ehrlich oved hashem is VERY important .
no doubt about that .
But to have a correct hashkafa and not follow meshugaas in a cult like way is not any less important .
If you do not open your eyes wide open and reason SOLIDLY with an open torah mind , who knows where one can end up .

And may I say some more [a lesson I learned from this decades long saga]

even being a totally sincere oved hashem IS NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER that one doesn’t stumble – badly- in hashkafa .

Habad yochi’ach ……

May this serve as a timely reminder for all of us .

.

To the Mods
– why was my post edited ?
At least give me an opportunity to reread it and edit it myself ?

And how, exactly would that be done?

@CS
CS is TOTALLY missing the point , all the while pretending [?] to answer it .
edited 

@Arso
Am talking about the OFFICIAL LINE here . Not about what people said .
The official line from the Hasidi hugim .

The official line from Habad was clearly that this mashiach crowning was AGAINST their rebbi’s wishes .
They cannot control everyone in such a big hasidut .

That the ‘haters’ were looking for problems and magnifying some small tiny dirt which had come in from the outside .
It was [supposedly] a result of the rapid influx of baalei thshuva who did not have the proper habad ‘mesorah’ ….
That they were the ‘victims’ of their own success ….

The TRUTH however was , that this was , as it seems , a ‘carefully orchestrated decades long campaign “milema’ala'” ….
.
A spectacular u turn …. Or maybe the Great Deception is a more accurate description ?

To summarize

CS does not know about the pre 94 non habad world , and therefore has no explanation about one of the major u turns in the Jewish world .

CS does not know about the u turns official habad performed during the last 7 decades.

CS does not adequately explain what their side is going to do with an explicit , centuries old, unchallenged Ramban , which clearly and unambiguously deals , head on , with the issue at hand . [as opposed to the other sources which could be explained in various ways]

CS is ignoring their own side ‘s clear and public declarations SUPPORTING their detractors present position .

CS is still looking with ‘innocent wonder’ at their detractors’ inability to see the yashrut and correctness of their position .

And we are left with equal wonder at the IMMENSE POWER of negi’ut .

Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Huts MiNig’ei Atsmo .

Their position is riddled with u turns , inconsistencies and contradictions against centuries old , well established thought .

They represent a small minority within Judaism .

AND THEY STILL LOOK AT US AS IF WE ARE THE MESHUGA”IM HERE …..

Mind boggling .

Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Hut MiNig’ei Atsmo …..

If CS has no regard for facts so well known –
they disqualified themselves from any mature discussion of this topic .

This response of attributing to the non habadi’s pre 94 , the position that
1] M HAS to come from the meisim
2] That was the reason why the leader of the Habad Hasidim was disqualified in their view

is a sign of either CLEAR DISHONESTY

or a sign of ELEMENTARY IGNORANCE AND SHALLOWNESS

and should serve as a final and clear refutation of their bikush ha’emet and a total bankruptcy of the habad debating methods
and the habad debating aims .

@CS

@Arso

re the term nasi .
The problem is not so much the term nasi [although I do see a problem as it is more elevated than the term rebbe or admor which is used in other circles]

Rather the problem is the word which is mentioned after the term nassi :

NASSI HADOR

the whole generation ….

Cannot remember the whole generation getting together and appointing the leader of the habad hasidim as Leader of the Whole Generation ….

What really happened – was the following : Habad hasidim [a small minority when using a worldwide Orthodoxy perspective] , crowned their leader as nasi over the overwhelming majority of Orthodox [non habad] Jews who did not even have any voting rights …..

You can give it any name you fancy . I would call this “Cultural Imperialism”.

But in the greater scheme of things , this is understandable [and even logical] .

Think about it .
If your end goal is to get all Jews to accept your leader’s messianic position , you have to first prepare their psyche .

First let them get used to calling him Nassi hador . Nassi of EVERYONE.
The next step – the messiah of EVERYONE , is not such a big unsurmountable step anymore …..

Food for thought …..

@CT
1] Ramban is in sefer havikuach – part of kisvei haramban
2] you did not answer whether all yidden who do not listen to ‘nevua’ of the leader of habad are hayav mitah byedi shamayim or not [and why]
3] According to your explanation of nevua i. e. every rebbe of habad who gave etsot in gashmiyut is a navi . we should extend that to every rabbi in yahadut who gives etsot in gashmiyut . why only to habad rebbeim ?
so, following your reasoning nevua NEVER stopped in in Jewish History . Every rabbi gave etsot in gashmiyut . this NEVER stopped .
Ela Mai – they gave etsot because it says in AVOT Ch 6 . Kol Halomed Torah LiShma … Nehenin Mimenu Etsa VeToshiya…
Ditto for the Rebeim of Habad .

@Arso
It is mentioned in Tanya . Quite a Mitnagdishe Shtikel I must say …

To the Group

CS promised to be honest
Meanwhile all I see is more of circle painting around the arrows and then claiming to have hit the target.

“To the group”? Are you qwerty613?

@CS
Ramban himself took notes of his argument and published it FOR THE YIDDEN .
He himself.
That was the true reason why the notsrims candidate was PROVEN WRONG .
.
This WAS THE CLEAR OFFICIAL HABAD [!] POSITION pre 94.
You are too young to remember this .
But I do .
It was one of the 13 ikarei emuna .
He COULD NOT DIE .
There is a nevua that he is mashiach .
Mashiach HAS to be alive [!!!!] , [like the Ramban ]
So He CANNOT DIE.
You would have to blind and deaf at the time not to notice .
This was the position of ALL habad rabanim and mashpi’im .
.
It is almost laughable that we are debating this issue where habad claims he can die – no problem .
Its so detached from reality that it seems like a dream .
Mashiach’s times [hayinu ke cholmim] ….
to end off with a bit of irony …..

@Arso
Thanks for liking of the post about RAMBAN .

Re ‘two bitter’ people you are referring to .
I am not bitter at all . I like the Habadi’s. They have tremendous qualities .
I also happen to like clarity , however , and I hate obfuscation .
So bitterness is not called for here , but clarity and honesty are .
Common thread in habadi’s response is ,as you mentioned: obfuscation / change of topic.

The other point you mentioned that there are 2 people [you and me] who stand against a multitude of brainwashed Habad hasidim

– I wouldn’t characterize it that way . At all.
rather it is the huge multitudes and the overwhelming majority of Yidden ,all around the world, from any type of background ,who all agree and look upon this strange and totally new theology with a huge dose of healthy skepticism , reality and sehel hayashar, and therefore reject it out of hand ,They stand against modern Habad theology whereas , in comparison, a very few [when compared to the rest of klal israel ] Habadi’s who refuse to think for themselves and keep mindlessly regurgitating the false platitudes they have been continuously fed .

@CS
What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.

Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say …. that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
the rest) and finish the job.

[Previous post by CS]
————————————————————-
RAMBAN clearly states that the Notsrims Mashiach can’t be mashiach.
And he also states the reason .
NOT because he was a rasha.
But because he started and [ to our eyes] passed away . EVEN IF HIS WORK AND INFLUENCE CONTINUED …..
That was according to RAMBAN sufficient reason to say –
HE CANNOT BE MASHIACH
.
This Ramban was not a chidush .
It was pashut.
Not challenged by anyone.
Not in his days .
Not in any of the multiple subsequent generations .
Not even in 1992 and 1993

ONLY from a very specific date in 1994 and onwards, was it discarded by some Jews [for some secret specific tsorech , I am not telling you what ,but you are allowed to guess it yourself]
.
Something against RAMBAN is treif .

Yes ,treif .

@CS
I am old enough to remember this myself .
Lo teheh Shmi’a gdolah MeRe’iya.
The Rebbe of habad came out unequivocally and 1] promised that no one will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War .
This was distributed by the hasidim in the name of their rebbe with a “Shturem” .
Then 2] this was used to establish the navi [emet – sheker?] credentials .
he promised in advance and in fact really nothing happened ,no one died , no one was injured , thus he was crowned as navi .
So we BH have – Hagai zharya malahi and RMMS.
Both [the promise plus the navi credentials] were made by OFFICIAL habad publications .
The kfar habad weekly magazine , dvar malhut .
I remember those heady days . Nearly every week there was more news. The Rebbe of the habad hasiddim got them into a real frenzy with new utterances all the time about the geoula [ not the impending one – rather the one they were supposed to open their eyes to] which was already happening right under their noses.
This was not the last generation of the galut . This was [supposedly] the first generation of the geoula !
[some thirty odd years ago …]
Suppose we can look it all up in the archives of kfar habad magazine of 1990 – 1992 in the period leading up to the stroke in ’92.

@Arso
Re the 2 colossal u turns – they are another topic which deserves mention in their own right
Od hazon Lamo’ed bln

.

@CS
Yes I learned the sources too .
What is missing here an acknowledgement from the Habad side that there were two colossal u – turns in habad theology in the last 40 – 50 years .
Countless pages of discussion and all there is , a total and pointed void .
The habad side avoids any honest discussion of their two major theological u turns .
They will change topics .
They will sing songs .
They will blame other streams of similar u turns [although they never happened]
But they will keep on ignoring their turns .
They do not realize that their ne’emanut in these matters is dipping under the freezing point and that their position is rendered untenable .
Until they will face these matters head on .
In a candid way .
Open and honest .

?