yankel berel

@katan

@somejew
You are not responding to my Q.
The essence of the Q was whether the establishment and / or existence of a medina before mashiach in theory by non zionists and by shomrei torah . Is that against the 13 ikarim? If yes which one ? And how so ?

@AAQ
It is well established fact that in Europe and the ME before the medina ,the Zionists were a substantial force for abandonment of yiddishkeit
Likewise after the medina .

My question is re the theory of a medina without any repercussions. Is that against ikarei emuna ?
Katan wants us to believe so.

But all he does is quoting others.
He has not once explained which ikar it contradicts and why.

Lets wait and see how long they can hold back .
For the record – there are NUMEROUS unanswered questions here.
Is this going to be the ultimate proof that habad lost ?

@hakatan
you seem to say that rav kotler zatsal did not say to support the medina’s needs klapei chuts when speaking to the US administration ?
Do you really stand by that ?
This is yadua lakol .

@chaim87

The most you can say is – that Zionism used the torah to give itself credibility.
I cant see anywhere in the torah a hiyuv to establish a State.

Zionism , however, was a trojan horse , planted within religious Judaism , through which untold Jews defected from Yiddishkeit.
Many times in a piecemeal fashion, slowly slowly.

So Zionism as a movement had a very detrimental effect on Judaism.
This seems to be agreed all over.
Hence the overwhelming disapproval of the gdolei torah toward the Zionist Movement.

That does not justify stupid and/or extreme shitot like those of hakatan and others which come up on these pages.

@hakatan
Besides your quoting R’E zatsal , I have not heard yet from you what ikar from the 13 ikarei emuna the medina is opposing. Besides the fact that most of its leaders and supporters are heretics.

Waiting for you to specify exactly which ikar are they contravening by establishing a medina before Mashiach’s coming ?
And how that is considered a contravention ?

A clear and detailed answer if possible .
.

@hakatan
Fact is and remains that although the Steipler for sure did not think that the State is ashalta degeoula. Aderaba it is an even bigger galut than before. A galut between our our own erring brothers.
Nevertheless someone stating that it is ashalta deguola , IS NOT AN APIKORUS.
He said that while observing the first three decades of the medina in actual operation.
Wrong – yes. Apikorus – no.
Clear from him that the essence of the medina is NOT kefira.
You cannot use a ma’amar of Rav E’W ztsal, which was said much before the medina’s existence.

Also – Hafets Chaim writes explicitly that a rebbi is allowed to exaggerate the sakana of a bad influence , in order to impress his talmidim to keep their distance from that influence.
So – it could very well be that R’E exaggerated and used inexact terminology to define this Zionist movement which was indisputably a bad influence on his talmidim and on the rest of klal yisrael.
This is not revisionism .
This is cold torah logic.

@hakatan

fyi. Rav Elhanan W zatsal wrote that in his opinion one will not be able to keep the torah and educate one’s children in a future medina.
In practice this has not come to pass.

So – what Rav Wasserman zatsal thought about how the medina would develop , was not the same as how the medina actually turned out to be.

So – R’W zatsals shituf association which was said re the old time zionists might also not pertain to our medina.

RW zatsal did not see our medina.

So – our medina may not be subject to his shituf association, and our medina supporters are not necessarily ovdei a’z beshituf even according RW ztsl.

Rav Aaron Kotler zatsal , someone who was on the same shitah with R’EW zatsal before the War, and did see the medina , advocated that the haredi Jews klapei huts towards the US Government should vigorously defend the Israeli Government in world affairs – notwithstanding the very severe ta’anot he had against them.

RE’W would have been of the same persuasion had he seen the medina as it really was.

Revisit to CS’s answer-
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
————————
The basic difference according to Tanya between Tsadiq and Beinoni is that although both refrain from ALL AVEROT, the beinoni still has the pull to do bad inside himself , but he strengthens himself and does not transgress at all , whereas the Tsadiq does not have this pull at all anymore , like David Hameleh who killed his yetser with fasting.

So if CS would still have a shred of honesty left, she should here publicly agree that her answer is totally off.
Lets say he did not do any avera – how does this have any relevance to his ‘Tsadiq status’ according to Tanya ???
.

Dear reader
Please contrast CS’s actual responses [without honesty] against those with honesty. Kirchok mizrah mima’arav.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem (remember Aharons argument to the malach hamoves?) There is a rare scenario of a tzaddik not advancing in his avodas Hashem, and slipping to do an aveira (like Yochanan Kohen Gadol), but it would be obvious as the Posuk states ba zadon vayavo kalon.

For a regular YB to think HE knows, or anyone that didn’t top The Rebbe in yiras shomayim, knows, that The Rebbe made a mistake, because He knows better, is utter foolishness, but just arrogance and bizui TC. I hope that clarifies.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. How many tzaddikim of Tanya there are today is a different question which I cannot answer. I keep my nose out for them.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

Not sure what you mean. And even if it is, it answers.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

No one is making you become Chabad. As for me, it’s my honour and privilege.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

See the answer to 1, and you’ll know why.

I will [for CS’s benefit] , attempt to fill in the answers to those simple questions in her place IF SHE WOULD BE HONEST AND HUMBLE ENOUGH to do so.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

No , I cannot because he nowhere addresses this.
I happen to have MY OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. I am not able to invoke the Tanya’s authority for them without clear proof from his words.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

No , because there is no such source to be found . Again – I and my fellow travelers happen to have OUR OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. We are not able to invoke any klal yisrael wide authority for this besides that this happens to be our own subjective opinion.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. But as this was not the question asked , the answer to the Q is , no. This concept is not widely accepted in klal yisrael outside of hasidi circles.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

I understand what you mean , because I took the time to reflect on this and used my honed intellect to process this Q. To be truthful, I never looked in this direction because I was programmed to repeat everything I am told by certain people without any of my own critical thinking.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

I don’t really know [refer to previous answer] .But my well-honed intellect tells me somehow that if there are other, better explanations to those mamarei hazal , then the authority lent to Tanya’s explanation is reduced to the Tanya himself and not to the Amora’im who said those ma’amarim.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

Because my rebbi taught me in all sorts of ways ,and I internalized this very well, [I actually can feel it in my bones] that my approach and that my rebbi are way more great, and way more emet , in all aspects, than any other approaches , and any other rebeim in the whole world.
He even conditioned me [and my fellow travelers] to continue to believe that ,even in the face of overwhelming evidence and immense rationality clearly pointing to the opposite.
He , therefore , even taught us to “phaiph” on said evidence and rationality.
So, as a result, said evidence and rationality are totally worthless, when it comes to convincing me of anything different to what I have been brainwashed to believe.

So obviously – it the other side who should ‘Go and Learn’ ….
.
Not me …..
.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted …
————–
That was not the question . The Q was whether the concept of Tsadiq of Tanya is accepted outside of hasidi circles .
And I can tell you.
I know the ‘outside of hasidi circles’ better than a chabad shluha who is not interested in oxen goring people …

And I can confirm – THIS CONCEPT OF THE BA”AL HATANYA IS NOT ACCEPTED outside hasidi circles.

You are simply NOT QUALIFIED to answer this question and your honesty – if there is any left- should compel you to agree.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?” [YB to CS]

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
———–
Your Rebbi was a controversial person. That is well established fact . There are admittedly many rabbanim who held him in high regard [in various stages of his life] but on the other hand many more rabanim are known to have criticized him on a personal level, some even very harshly so.

I think this is an accurate description of your rebbi’s reputation.

So to say axiomatically that your rebbi qualifies as a tsaddiq of tanya …. is doubtful.

To base all your ikarei emuna on that premise is like basing your investment on a 50/50 chance of total loss.

To all undecided readers of these lines I would say – hedge your bets ….

.

YB:
Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.”

CS:
Apparently you never met a Tzaddik of Tanya. Sounds like the Yanuka and Modzitzer Rebbe may qualify. Go and learn.

——————————————————————-
1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?

2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?

3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?

4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?

5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]

6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???
.

@hakatan

Satmar rav vayechi is daat yachid.
Rov minyan ubinyan of gdolei yisrael disagreed with him on most of his rabid anti zionist views.

Some say that even he himself sometimes overstated his own shitah , because of the hurricane of Zionism after the war.
Now that we are much further from the war and the allure of Zionism lost most of its appeal, we don’t need this extreme rhetoric which was used in those times.

People like you, tend to view the world through this one dimensional Lense, and therefore your picture comes out crooked and unbalanced.

@CS
Not bashing you and your fellow hasidim at all.
Clearly stated that you are all wonderful and special people who try and do good .
Please do not ignore that.

But that’s not a get out of jail card for excessive person [idol/ rebbi] worship, crooked theology and successive public uturns on ikarei emuna AND your collective inability [[due to brainwash and / or lack of honesty] to face up to them.
We cannot ignore that either.

Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns.

You either joke about it. Or change topics.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job.

The issues mentioned in those above lines were extensively mentioned in previous threads.
With only those above mentioned responses as a result.

It seems that the source of your [plural] inability to muster anything more than the above , is your obstinate clinging to one certain persons infallibility.

Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.

What’s not under discussion here is what good habad people do all around the world.
What is under discussion here is the objectionable and abhorrent belief systems which are drilled into tamimi children and youth, who totally lose the ability to think for themselves anymore.
And used to brainwash unsuspecting baalei tshuva, making them think that this ersatz coffee created from who knows what , is really a delectable drink , far surpassing real coffee.
It is high time that this fraudulent worldview should be exposed for what it really is.
So again – habad consists of truly wonderful people , all nebah victims of mass brainwash and total inability of independent torah based critical thought.

@Yashardik
There was a mistake in the previous post – so here is the fixed version.
————–
They are USING hasidut and everything else to impose their rebbi on the world.

Not the other way around.

It is obvious to anyone who observes them from close.

If their rebbi would tell them to stop hasidut learning.

Do you have a have amine that would not listen to him ?

For sure they would listen.

For sure they would stop learning hasidut

So what is their goal ?
their rebbi or learning hasidut?

Clearly it is their leader …..
Their learning hasidut drive is just a useful tool to remake their rebbi into the greatest of all mankind since creation.

The merit of truth is not because its convenient or because it ‘feels good’ or because its fuzzy … or because of any other reason.

The merit of truth is simply because it is …. the Truth .
.

@yashardik
Habad holds themselves superior to the Malachim too, even though they also learn and know hasidut.
There is NO ONE in habad who reckon the rebbi of the Malachim to be a ‘disappeared’ Mashiach , who will ‘reappear’ any moment.
Nor are they prepared to use him as an intermediary [al’p] to HKBH.
No matter the amount of hasidut he might have learnt and known in his lifetime ….

Neither is R Aron of Strashelle z’l a candidate. Notwithstanding him reputedly being a goan mamash in hasidut.
So learning hasidut is not the issue at all.

Rather this is very simple. That role is RESERVED already.

There is one God, one Torah and lehavdil elef alfei havdalot only ONE rebbe.

Although in habad the order of this last statement probably is the opposite …..

And all of us , you and me included are [allegedly] created for one purpose only – to be mekabel ol malhuto of their rebbi alenu . That is our and the whole worlds tahlit habri’ah .

Whether we or the world do or do not know it [yet] is irrelevant.

That and only that is the reason why habad considers itself superior to all of us.

@Arso
@Neville

@lostspark

Is it true that there are 2 different Qwerty’s on this thread ?

the following was posted under the name of Qwerty, on November 7 :

—————-
I think all of you just 🤣crazy to talk about Chabad,try to be beasy with mitzvot instead so much avarot.אתם בטח כולכם אוכלי חינם,לכו לעבוד במקום לנצל את הממשלה שלכם או את ישיבות שלכם ,כולכם שקרנים וגנבים,תשתפו את הפיות שלכם לפני שמדברים על חבד,תתביישו לכם ותלכו לעזאזל בעזרת השם.תלכו למות עוד הלילה.
————–

Is that the same qwerty of “checkmate fame” ?
Or a different one ?
.

@Neville

I understand that kasheh
[why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994]
, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since habad are just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994.
—————————
It is not a machloket bemetse’ut, since they have not ever denied that they held RAMBAM as the last authoritative posek for their mashiach matters.
They have not denied their own use of RAMBAM’s YAD HACHAZAKA to further their own rebbi’s candidacy.

I vividly remember them using RAMBAM in service of their mashiach craziness.

So please, let’s start calling a spade a spade ….

@menachem
It was not a church session.
It was an outdoor ‘event’ comprising of xtian tourists in EY.
They were congregating outside a habad house which was showing a video of their rebbi which passersby were free to watch.
He was standing close to them, so he happened to overhear their comments.
I also happen know which habad house it was.

@Neville
The following was the original post [on page 21] re habad accepting / rejecting RAMBAM’s words re mashiach
————–
Habad does not reject Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach.
Not at all.
At least until a certain day in 1994, that is.
Until that day, habad was extremely busy trumpeting Rambam’s every word and how it corresponds oh so meticulously with their leader.
So, notwithstanding Shmei’s erudition, after bakashat mehila, I don’t think he will be able to furnish you [and the rest of us] with a logical explanation why Rambam’s words stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 …
————-
The question was – and still is , until some answer will somehow appear ….

why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 ????

That question has NOT been addressed at all, to the best of my knowledge.

Nu ???

@menachem
I am an avid reader of your comments defending habad and I have NO RECOLLECTION of any of your comments on this particular topic . Would you mind copying and paste them here ?

@ non political

You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.