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I actually think you *should* be disappointed. You wanted to hear a shiur on a specific topic, but you didn’t. It should be the same disappointment as you would feel if you were told that the topic was changed because the scheduled maggid shiur came down with laryngitis – not an upset disappointment, but a disappointment that you didn’t hear the shiur you wanted to.
Had you gone to the local pizza shop and been told that they ran out of your favorite topping, I would agree that although the normal human emotion would be to feel disappointment, the ideal would be not to. Since, however, we’re discussing talmud Torah, and one is supposed to learn what interests him, disappointment is fully justified.
So, for someone like me, whose been told that his very existence (inasmuch as I am not chareidi or yeshivish) is a chillul HaShem, I fail to see the harm in walking into a theater.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I do indeed feel you should be able to test yourself.
Chaza”l, however, do not.
That person going into the movies is already being oiver one averia. By removing his yarmulke he is now oiver 2 averiros.
IIRC, that is indeed R’ Moshe’s reasoning.
BOR – Listen Chavereim, Torah does not forbid you from watching a screenplay.
Please inform us of who you got s’micha from allowing you to decide matters of Jewish law.
On other threads, I’ve posted a teshuva from Chacham Ovadiah Yosef in which he explains clearly that there are several serious issurim involved in viewing most secular media, and quotes several other gedolim who had the same opinion.
Wolf, do you think the chances of harm coming to a child are greater in that situation (leaving for three minutes under the supervision of an obviously frum looking man), or taking the child in a car, or crossing the street with them?
He would ask a nice frum yid to watch his child, just like the guy in Wolf’s story did and just like DaasYochid, myself, and others indicated they would.
That works if the adult needs the restroom, not if the child needs the restroom.
shlishi,
Please drop it. Thanks.
But that said, I disagree with the modern Jewish thought process of the ultra religious who disavow all of the things that are “Secualar”.
Not all things secular; just those which have a negative impact on our neshamos.
This music that we have on our radio stations is truly a gift and I for one feel richer for the benefit of the listening pleasure.
One could make the same argument for cheeseburgers, that Mcdonalds is truly a gift, and I feel richer for the benefit of the culinary pleasure.
Try Carlebach, try Yosef Karduner, try any of the suggestions brought here, rather than the secular, morally debased stuff that plays on the radio today (unless you like classical music). By giving up the trash, you will be truly enriched.
How the heck did he know I was frum??? Just because I wore a white shirt and kippah?
With a white shirt, five day shadow, on Chol Hamoed, no doubt in some typical Chol Homoed spot like a museum or zoo. Yes, it’s a dead giveaway. Again, I’d argue that the chances of someone in those circumstances *not* being a frum Jew are infinitesimal.
Do you think Levi Aron is the first Jew to ever be accused of murdering another Jew?
It’s the first case I’ve ever heard of in which one abducted an unknown child with these tragic results.
Thanks for the update. Decent amount?
An acquaintance of mine claims he lost a gall bladder to the Atkins diet.
But, on the other hand, you should not be taking unnecessary risks — and leaving your kids with strangers (even if they look frum) is a definite risk.
For goodness’ sake, he had to go to the bathroom, and asked a frum guy to watch his kids for a minute! The chances of that particular person being a psycho are infinitesimal, and (I agree with Droid that) you can’t live your life paranoid.
Driving is a risk, as is crossing the street. should we avoid those?
the R”Y advising the NASI Project have encouraged that course of action and thus they are following up on it.
That’s fine, the upside, closing the gap, is obvious. I’m just pointing out that it’s a shikul hada’as. Marrying a slightly older girl doesn’t have this downside (although it may have others).
Are they following up on it by encouraging their talmidim to go to E.Y. earlier? Or by telling them to come back earlier?
Btw i have not said anything in terms of aboloshing the freezer.
Yes, I pointed that out, in your defense.
As for regarding leaving full time learning: It has far more to do with the number of children he has/at what age he has them/what other sources of income etc. Whether he got married at 22.50 or at 23.25 has probably very little to do with how many years he learns in full time kollel after his chassuna.
It would make a difference of three quarters of a year.
DY – Despite what is written in the Kesubah, almost noone in Kollel has any financial responsibilities.
Anyway it’s not just the Shver, they say he has a company of 5 & the gov. working for him. The guy’s parents (2), the in-laws (4), and of course the Vibel (5), plus all the Gov. programs!
Do us a favor, and take your anti kollel diatribe to a different thread.
shlishi –
but he thinks the freezer is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
Well, then this disagreement is essentially between an anonymous internet poster and the Roshei HaYeshiva of Beis Medrash Govoha.
It’s not too hard to figure out who AZ is. Besides, his point is not to abolish the freezer, it’s that bochurim should come back from E.Y. earlier, so that they’re out of the freezer earlier. The point of the freezer, as I understand it, is that the bochurim settle in to a good learning routine before they start going out, not that they should go out later.
Health –
DY – This whole convo is talking about guys who learn in EY and then go to Lakewood. What – there are no guys in Shidduchim in America who don’t follow this route?
Sure, there are some. That doesn’t change the fact that many (probably a large majority) do go to Lakewood.
“When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have,”
Not in Lakewood – he don’t!
Sure he does. Whether his shver supports doesn’t change the kesuba.
For the purpose of this conversation, my point is that despite the stereotype, the vast majority do eventually leave full time learning. At what age that takes place is usually directlt related to the age someone gets married.
He may have whom to rely on to chew gum, but his rabbi recommended against it, and he heats up cold liquids on Shabbos. I would not eat there.
Meanwhile, see if you can speak to him (or his rabbi) about not heating liquids on Shabbos, which is potentially a bigger problem.
What’s wrong with that.
What’s potentially wrong with that is the boys leaving Eretz Yisroel before they’re ready. The whole idea of having boys marry earlier, even those who are mature enough to handle marriage, is not simple at all. When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have, and in the vast majority, getting married younger means leaving full-time learning younger.
Whether or not the age/gender discrepancy warrants this sacrifice is only a decision that the gedolei hador could make, and each bochur, with his rebbe, could make.
Encouraging considering slightly older girls to marry does not have this drawback.
AZ: can you please reconcile your statement “I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism” with “I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality”
If you read his next sentence, he wrote, “we simply disagree as to whether that is taking place presently now or not.”
Since your statement was, “I see a healthy sense of individualism”, was referring to the way you see the present reality, it “takeh” doesn’t make sense to agree with it and then say that it’s not presently occurring, but his intent was pretty clear – he’d like to see boys start dating as soon as they’re ready, (as would you), but he thinks the freezer (and/or arriving in Lakewood when ready to date) is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
DH –
I don’t think that voting for Obama is one of the three simanim of a shota.
That’s what I meant.
One could argue, though that it’s m’abed mah shenosnim lo (if someone thinks Obama will destroy the U.S.).
I plan to vote for Obama in 2012. But this is really irrelevant to this thread.
A shoitah l’davar echad is not a shoitah. 😉
If anyone would like to sponsor a better server please email the Editor 🙂
It’ll work if the complainant is an advertiser.
There are two types of cheresh; one who speaks but cannot hear, and one who cannot do either. The former is considered a bar da’as, the latter is not.
With today’s advanced technology, most deaf people can be taught to speak (and cochlear implants can help them hear, although the status of these and other devices is questionable as to whether considered halachic hearing).
anon1m0us,
According to your logic, Hatzolah never should have been started, since at that moment, nobody’s life was going to be saved.
The reality is that it’s as if (on a community scale) some girls are locked in a box (albeit any specific girl can gett married), and, at least according to 70 R”Y, it’s not a lack of bitachon to try to close the gap so that there’s an opportunity for all of them to get married.
I was wondering…..doesn’t G-d control who you marry and when you marry? As long as you do your hishtadlus there is no crises. So why are we finding causes and suggesting solutions when it is all part of G-d’s plan.
For an imdividual, you’re right. But society’s hishtadlus has to take the whole picture into account, and if that means closing the age gap, then that’s the hishtadlus which needs to be done.
In any event, as I explained to DY above, there is nothing untoward, unkosher, unethical, or outright illegal in getting kedushin without a marriage certificate.
You didn’t explain it, you asserted it. You’re wrong.
You refer to the moral decay in our society as if it’s an excuse to do things which look wrong. It doesn’t work that way, it would still be a huge C”H.
Have you dug up the tape of RAM calling for polygamy? (BTW, how many wives did he have?)
the average incoming age to the largest post EY yeshiva in North America is almost 23 years old
I thought it was younger, but I never did a study. I still don’t think that getting boys married younger is so pashut; the clock starts ticking faster on leaving the b.m. full time.
You mentioned earlier that there’s a thought that unplugging the freezer wouldn’t be of any benefit. Why not? (I’m not advocating it – there’s a good reason for the freezer – but I’m curious how it could possibly not close the gap).
D”Y, holding hands with a niddah is NOT the same issur as eating at McDonald’s, and anyone who says so, is probably committing the same type of lo tosif as Adam Harishon did when he told Chava they could not even touch the eitz hadaas, whent hat was NOT what Hashem said to Adam.
The difference is is that Hashem DID say not to engage in behavior which may lead to giluy arayos.
but if they do, lightning will most likely not strike them
Not in this world. Same as a cheeseburger. Or as hello99 pointed out, worse.
they should not be told that they would get koreis for touching a niddah, if it simply is not true
Agreed, but they should be told that’s it’s a very severe issur D’oraisa, for which one one would be obligated to give up his/her life not to transgress.
I agree with DZ, and think it’s assur (I would guess, but am not sure, that the store loses out if they neglect to charge foe the deposit). You should tell the cashier that you can’t scan all five together, one has no deposit and four do.
R-b, you could have used lemonade as an example. ?
you are demanding a higher standard than the Torah which gives the Kohanim (priests descending from Aaron) steaks for bringing the Korbanos (animal offerings in the Temple).
The Torah already promised “steaks” for tzeddakah – Aser k’dai shetisaher.
What’s also sad is that there are priorities in halacha as to which mosdos or even yechidim one should give, and these are all being disregarded, and instead, people who give are giving based on whose steak is more well done. Unfortunately, it is all too rare to find someone giving l’sheim shamayim (that $5 Oorah entry notwithstanding).
It’s better that the couple should grow together, rather than that they should each be set in their own independent, mature ways.
There needs to be a balance. Too young is no good, but there’s an easy solution: wait. Too old can also be a problem, that they’re too set in their ways, but you can’t very well tell the older singles not to get married!
Like Goldie Lox, it has to be juuuust right.
Joseph,
“Doesn’t inquire” is not the same as “doesn’t require”.
Either way, it would be a massive C”H.
Joseph,
Rav Pam would not be m’sader kiddushin for a couple who didn’t register civilly.
The scenario you desire would cause a massive chillul Hashem.
AZ,
The boys are mostly starting to date at, max, 22 already. Younger than that is the problem. A certain R”Y whose initials were AZ was against boys marrying too young because he saw the shalom bayis issue that came to him.
Why “should” she not “allow” her husband to take another?
Because it would create an unsustainable marriage. It’s impossible that Rav Miller Zt”l was in favor of polygamy on a practical level; he would never advise someone to do something stupid (cause marital strife and get thrown in jail).
oomis1105,
Correct, but it is still likely an issur D’oraisa, and I don’t see how one can minimize it and say it’s clearly better than eating at McDonalds. They’re both terrible (although the yetzer hara for McDonalds is less for most people).
ItcheSrulik,
Yes, airplane mode, flight mode, or whatever a particular manufacturer calls it, shuts off all connection to the network while keeping the phone on. It’s also useful to preserve battery life when out of range. Many dumbphones ( I like that term) have this feature as well.
Charlie,
I will be dan l’kaf z’chus that you use the tefillos in your Blackberry when a siddur is unavailable. (Not that it’s a terrible aveira otherwise, I’m being a bit dramatic, but I agree to the posters who opined that it’s not as good as using a siddur, because of v’hiyisem n’kiyim.)
Joseph,
The reason polygamy is laughable is because no married woman will (nor should) allow her husband to marry another. It’s also illegal.
mewho,
I agree that the law should be against all forms of distracted driving. The reason this isn’t enforced is because it’s much easier to convict for something more concrete.
binahyeseira – I assume that you were addressing AZ, but I’ll disagree with what the goal is (he can speak for himself when he sees this).
I think the goal is to educate people that a 23 year old boy can be every bit as happy if he marries a 22, 23, or even 24 year old girl, as he might be if he married a 19 year old girl.
I know several couples who were in this category, (including my grandparents) and their marriages seem wonderful, B”H.
There are plenty of boys who are not choosy about the age of whom they marry (within reason), so why not try to set them up with a “slightly older” girl with almost no detriment! Often, in fact, a 22 year old girl carries (besides extra maturity) the benefit of having a better income, and despite the stereotypes, most yeshiva boys I know would rather not have to take much support from their in-laws.
As for those who prefer a younger wife, nobody is forcing them to marry or go out with anyone, and their are plenty of shadchanim (and always will be) who will gladly accommodate. The goal concerning this type of boy is to reduce how many of them there are, by removing the “stigma” of marrying an older or close-in-age girl. Anecdotally, there seems to have been some success in this area.
Where I may disagree with AZ is regarding boys going out earlier. I think the tendency in more recent years has been to start younger, often before they are actually ready, so I would think that a further push in that direction would be detrimental from a shalom bayis perspective, which is why I would prefer the gap be closed by encouraging shidduchim with older girls, rather than younger boys.
It is for this same reason (only much more so) that I consider the idea of polygamy to be a laughable solution (besides being illegal). Having marriages between members of different (even frum) cultures is similarly ill advised (this one has exceptions).
Daas Yochid: The Chareidi population in America may have a slightly lower growth rate than the Chareidi population in Israel, but this would nevertheless put them close to 4% annual growth rate.
You’re probably right; I have been claiming all along that there’s a tremendous discrepancy between the numbers of marriageable age girls and boys. To know the numbers for the U.S., we would have to get a TFR for the chareidi population here.
pba,
They come prepared with all the names they got from their husbands.
A card reader is a Gypsy woman at the country fair who looks at tarot cards and tells you your future.
?
Is someone from Krypton a Kryptonite?
he seems to ignore the discrepancy between the numbers of boys and girls born each year.
That’s not the relevant number; the relevant number is the tertiary ratio, which is 103.
Population growth seems to be more than 2%; he says 2% in the mid 80’s, which is more than the 1.5% in the 70’s. A growing rate of population growth would be more consistent with Lomed’s numbers (although I would guess that the chareidi growth in the U.S. would be slightly lower than in E.Y.).
My wife knows of more older single girls than I know boys, but I wouldn’t have mentioned this anecdotal evidence other than to counter yours. (In fact, at shidduch meetings my wife has attended, all of the ladies know of more girls than boys.)
r-b,
If you have a job which pats $40,000 a year, and your budget is to spend $50,000, you’re relying on a nes.
An adam gadol I knew said that daas Torah is the ability to give advice without negiyus (i.e. objectively).
da’as: yes, i know the reason that the boys don’t go to shadchanim
Well, then, by applying the laws of supply and demand it should be obvious that the reason the boys don’t need to go to shadchanim is because there’s a large “supply” of girls! (Unless you think there’s no “demand”, because the boys don’t want to get married, which you probably realize is not true.)
hello99,
The excerpt I tried putting up is now posted. Take a look, and by all means, do a search and read the entire article.
It’s not based on Avi Chai, it’s based on U.S. census. His numbers are 2% per year as of the middle 80’s, but show growth, so it’s likely higher now. He works out the numbers to result in a 10% difference among shidduch aged singles.