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Kuvult > I never understood this concept of “Tzadikim” owning or running their own school
There is such concept in Bava Basra – when butcher union decided to slash skins of one who was breaking their monopoly, they were blamed for making community decision when there was a talmid chacham in town. They shold have gone to him for a resolution. (I presume beis din would work also).
That is, Talmid Chacham as a first resort, and democracy as a second (politics at that time allowed guilds to behave as a community, we might consider this a monopoly).Community approach you mention is also good – if it works. Or, a competition approach that I mentioned. Each might work depending on size and structure of the community. Back to Bava Basra’s discussion of educational system, it seems that we just need to keep the goal – education – in mind (rather than teachers’ or other interest), and whatever works empirically should be used, and if not – discarded. Bava Basra lists approaches tried during Beis Mikdash sheni era: first fathers were teaching (seems like most preferred option) – but many were not educated enough (Lakewood was not built yet); then, they sent kids to Cohanim in Yerushalayim (2nd preferred – most inspired teachers in a most inspired location) – but not all fathers could drive there; 3rd best – regional centers where kids could walk themselves (that is, still somewhat higher quality teachers, less inspiring setting), but only teenagers would walk so far and they would not listen to the teachers (maybe because teachers/setting were not best?); and 4th best approach that worked – teach small kids at each location (maybe not best teachers, but small kids will listen) + ensure sufficient funding (small class sizes or extra teachers) + unlimited competition, as described already.
ubiq,
you are also offering a confused picture: mass shootings call a lot of attention and understandingly horrify people, but most murders in USA are not in mass shootings. There is a definite increase in the last 10 years, but it is still median number is 40 people per year (out of 15-20 thousand murders per year). These numbers are from Statista. Looked up some partisan anti-gun source and their numbers are slightyl higher: 100 people per year are killed in mass murders. Wiki listing seem to better fit the first source.So, if you care, murderes in 2020 increased dramatically – from 15 to 20K, highest percentage increase in 100+ years.
PS and 2021 had another 5% increase in murders. Pew and others list Floyd protests and subsequent decrease in policing as possible factors, “requiring more research”. So, this seems to be an argument that those who do not want to depend on fickle public to fund police, have a right to protect themselves.
note that this very specific question leads everyone to provide arguments that are fully explained by the writers’ political positions. Are you guys not bored simply repeating your beliefs?
FrumStat, thanks for the explanation. I guesa Musk is not losing either way – either he can get out of the losing deal, or he can generate publicity and sympathy for himself while taking twitter on. Maybe some reverse psychology here – before twitter libs were horrified by the prospect of being accountable for their work, now they can be happy that they are forcing Musk to buy them.
soosim > 90% of those that get my approval have annual budgets of under $1,000,000
not arguing with your conclusion, but this math statement is not good: “most” US businesses are small, that does not mean that most people work for the small businesses. Same here, a better number would be %-age of annual BUDGET that is going through small charities. And also what percentage you approve for each of the sizes.
not just “killed”, but did not encourage further development and production, leading to reluctance of businesses to invest. Also, reducing pressure on allies – allowing Germans off the hook from starting building LNG that T pressed them into; and offending Saudis – who are an only country in the world that can change supply by simply turning the spigot to the left or right. Also, for a failed policy of preventing Russian war – our idea was that the response has to be “proportional” so that even if Russia does a little mischief, they can still be afraid of further escalation. Instead, Russia read it as a sign of weakness.
Again, President does not control all events in the world, Hashem does. So, if he has done his due diligence: encourage oil production, steered allies, scared enemies, then nobody will blame him for whatever bas happens despite his efforts. But as he did not – only 29% believe his frantic effort to find who to blame.
menctch, I agree. In most cases in Tanach, Jews were granted victory when they fought AND were following Hashem’s will. Interesting though how here arguments on two sides of the spectrum converge – those on a liberal side who propose to fight with no arms, and those on the other side who claim that their learning is substitute for military effort. It seems that wishful thinking and self-deceit are non-partisan.
Yserbius > @Always_Ask_Questions I am far more scared of a bunch of yokels running around with murderous weapons than I am of our government turning on the people
Mi hu chacham .. But you somehow ended in a country with a constitutional system specifically built to prevent tyranny. If you don’t appreciate it, fine, you are free to suffer or move to a country with other priorities. It is hard to argue about the future and yes currently most developed countries look stable. But if you were to move from revolutionary America to revolutionary France, you would have lost your head several times over an average lifetime.
>> When the Non-Jews are too religious, it is dangerous to the Jews.
> in converse, when Jews aren’t religious enough,these 2 statements taken together is an actual quote from R Berl Wein.
Still, this seem to be a real-life sad observation rather than an ideal. Otherwise, we would say that Chinese system of suppression of all religions is ideal, especially as it does not have many Jews.
I would suggest cautiously support proper understanding of Hashem by non-Jews, still expecting bad things possibly happening. This happened, for example, when Protestants appeared in Germany and some Jews were optimistic about it.
Menachem > If children could go to different schools, get very different values and hashkofos, and still be taught the infinite value of every single Yid,
Agreed. But I think we still “naturally” tend towards hurtful separation. As R Berel Wein says: if a city has 100 Jews, he wants them to have 1 shul with 100 ppl, what do Jews do – they form 10 shuls with 10 people each, and they end up with 11 shuls, 9 people each …
As to school economics, separation begets monopoly and corresponding decrease in quality and choices and increase in price. Tzadikim in charge of school can mitigate some of it but the general trends exist. Purely theoretical, for example, the pre-war Litvish system, from my limited understanding, worked better. R Kamenetsky and R Ruderman had a 2nd grade Rebbe who once suspected R Kamenetsky of lying – and these Talmidei Chachamim blamed him for preventing others in their class to become Talmidei Cachamim. But this Rebbe was not part of the school system that promulgated bad middos – he was teaching just 2nd grade in his yard. So, presumably they got a great 3rd grade rebbe… So, if, by some organizational magic, parents had choices between individual teachers rather than “school systems”, probably parents will have a better match to their needs and lower price. Increasing competition rather than forming oligarchies that partition the market by catering to different population segments. Econ 101, as described in by Bava Basra.
Syag, I think he said ” too many kids to handle”. For some, it would start with 1 … His point seem to be that children in larger families are more independent, which is probably true. Still, I don’t think this fully explains the difference between US and Israel. Many US families with larger families just get themselves a larger van rather than sending kids on foot.
What is this dichotomy between modern and yeshivish? You are denying first group serious learning, or making it unaffordable and inappropriate by pushing them into expensive private schools, and you are denying second group a possibility of leading normal life earning relatively easy living. Any big school had 2 or more levels for some subjects, there is no reason some levels are college track and others are not, some are kollel track, and others are not. Kids should not be confused that some are going to be rabbis and some lawyers, and some both.
Menachem,. you are right, there is a limit to diversity, such as pluralistic schools that give options from reform to chasidut.. but if much of your school curriculum is spent on beards … I had kids in a chasidish school with many yeshivish teachers and almost none of them tried to impress kids into their derech, at least not to the degree that affected kids. And it is really good for the kids to know that there are other opinions. It may be personal decision to what degree you want to introduce it, but you should. It is really right there in my gemora: beit Hillel and beit shammai would marry each other by warning if someone would be a mamzer by the other opinion. Check yours, it might say the same.
Kuvult, sorry I misunderstood. I had a similar case where I called a chabad house where I wanted to stay as I had a conference on Friday. He was curious of my background and asked: are you a, b, or c? I answered: Jewish. He abruptly stopped questions, laughed and said, of course you are welcome to come. It was a wonderful place.
Jackk, if you walk close to a pit and wind pushed you inside, it is your fault that you didn’t maintain safety margin. Government that allowed Putin to threaten world economy is at fault – not only of us paying $5 gas, but enabling this conflict by demonstrating this weakness and enabling russkies
YS > gun ownership is very goyish
And what are you trying to convert them?! The famous Roman charge of discrimination in Jewish law was that Jew pays 50% for animals grazing, while non-Jew 100%. The reason is non-Jew has no mitzva to be pro-active in keeping his animals erliche. So, here, if non-Jews came up with an idea of universal gun ownership to protect their freedom in general, and property in particular, are we going to insist that they institute a beisdin instead and have a death penalty al pi shnei kosher eidim?!
Also, Musk lost like $100 out of $300B Tesla stock due to decreased value at the same time .. The only money saved was from $8B of Tesla stock that he had to convert into cash at the time of the deal, on which he saved $1-2B – more than the $1B Twitter breakup fee.
Kuvult,
a wonderful story – except your shock :). So, presumably this respect was not so visible during the lifetime … There are probably limits to publicly acceptable cooperation. When I was younger, I once offered a Rav a possible joint action with another nearby Rav who was involved in a related activity. He looked at me with a wise smile and said – Cooperate?! Baruch Hashem, we learned how not to impede each other … I analyzed the scene again and understood that they were actually doing that!Huju, alternative is to do teshuva for your vote and reimburse Syag for her gas expenses. You can also open a gas refinary or at least, invest in one. Maybe open an responsible investment fund, democrats for cheaper gas
Menachem, good questions. I think a school should have separate classes for those who are preparing for college and those who will go into learning/teaching. Making them sit in a common “math” class is torturing both. This can be partially augmented with online assignments. I would have no problem if school teachers halochos of beards, mentioning what the approaches are. I realize it would be tedious to be inclusive without getting ridiculous, but it is possible. I heard for example a Sephardi chacham routinely say Ashkenazim do this, we do that… Beit Hillel used to do this and even shulchan aruch is written this way … Really if you focus on classical Jewish texts, you can teach them without being divisive most of the time.
Don’t blame small organization for their size. Big organizations may have more resources to paint a good picture, including in tax forms. Small organization that you know does good work is better than a national one
Even if truth social will be a disaster, this is how it works. Try multiple (reasonably) risky ventures, and some of them will work out. This is how American venture capitalism work and it was spectacularly working in last 30 years, leading to American internet businesses dominating the world of European/Asian business models that tend to punish risks. As the story goes – if you fail in business, German banks will not give you a penny after that. In America, you can now say that you have “experience starting businesses” and have a higher chance of getting on a new deal. Trump applied the same approach to politics, and it is up to voters whether to focus on successes or failures,
Musk offered $44B for twitter. Stock is now 20% off from the time of the offer, that is, twitter lost $8B in value, while the break up fee is $1B. Whatever Musk’s plans are for improving Twitter, $7B is some money … So, the deal was doomed by the Biden’s market. Maybe Musk will make a lower bid, while still fighting the breakup fee.
For those who have partisan views on this, what would you do if you give a real estate offer with $1K down and then next week, price of RE goes down by 10%. Will you pay the original offer or accept $1K offer. what would be halachik considerations here? Is it an aveirah to not stand by your word, or do we say that this is a simple contract that has an option to buy or pay a penalty?
Syag > afraid of them learning too much from the wrong people.
Are you advocating for kids being sent to public or open-modern schools with no supervision? I think our whole educational system is built on shielding kids from bad influences and you seem to agree with that. Consider, as an illustration, a poster here who is a teacher and tends to feel very negative towards any derech except his. I can imagine him being my kid’s Rebbe and I would come very satisfied about his knowledge and middos based on a short discussion. At some point, i would notice that the kid is becoming less and less tolerant and becoming stubborn in his Jewish and political views. Ok, I guess I can wait until he grows into his 20s, and then, I can talk with him as an adult and train him into better thinking. I would feel the same if the teacher will have modern or zionist or chassidic biases.
Syag,
I shared some of my experiences to provide testimony for discussions of most important part of Jewish life, education. Saying that my opinions are wrong because they are based on my experiences does not add much to the discussion.Some of the value in that information is that some information comes out of the mouths of principals when there is a disagreement. So, you can assess whether this applies to your institutions without going thru the same painful steps. I absolutely do not think that all schools have these problems, or that the same schools do not have positive sides.
Kuvult,
I would also add that you don’t have to belong to any of the movements at all. Yes, there is a minhag of davening and wearing a kittel, but there is no reason why one needs to pledge allegiance to one way of learning and thinking. This is devaluing Torah and making it into a tool of building group-think.Maybe we are assimilated into American freedom of association and “factions” leading to a free market of ideas, so we also divided into groups competing ideologically. In these terms, separating by the style of the hat leads to market segmentation, every movement controlling their own institutions, same way Apple controls macs and iphones. From the POV of consumers, if parents see more schools acceptable hashkafically, there will be more competition and more value for parents, as intended in halakha (competition is limited in regular trade, but unlimited among teachers and perfume peddlers),
Menachem, one issue here that I start realizing: do we always have to have education filled with Jewish politics? On one hand, it is convenient to have teachers substitute for parents telling the kids that their rebbe/derech are the only kosher ones. On the other hand, in many places parents may not have exactly same shitot as a particular 5th grade rebbe. In this case, school is helping the lower part of the class whose parents can’t formulate their derech, but hurts the other half who have to work correcting the kid, or see their kids growing up as a carbon copy of the movement.. I find schools or teachers who “simply” teach Torah and derech eretz the best.
Women upstate volunteered.. in either case, men need to level to the idea that their role in the house is limited… (This is what we tell women regarding their role outside the house)
Search IRS site for charity form 990, it gives you basic statistics how money is spent. When you have a choice, support people whose work you know and respect. No reason to support “possibly legit” instead of the “best I know”. Same way you probably buy things for yourself
For those who want to protect their kids completely from the outside world, naming a kid Feiga is the best. Except for the small number of kids who would want to see the world 🌎 and will have to completely abandon Feiga for Molly.
A middle way is to use Jewish names that do not sound too weird for the rest of the world: David Jacob.. and with current cultural tolerance, this list is pretty long.
Herman Wouk’s grandfather came to USA, tried to teach in Yiddish, never learned English as it sounded rude, and left for EY
But as of now, there are so many books and shiurim in English, maybe it will be a new Aramaic… Imagine in 500 years Chinese speaking Jews toiling with artscroll like their grandfathers did
YS > It’s a document written with the express purpose of changing for every generation.
… with express provisions on how to make these changes.As it is a contract – albeit a long-term one, the rules of contract should apply. How would you feel if you sign a contract, but the other sides starts re-interpreting it due to changed conditions? Logically, in a case of doubt, the best way is to get agreement of all sides to re-negotiate the contract so that it appeals to everyone. Sneaking in changes through courts leads to a decrease in respect to the overall contract, weakening the country.
And guns are the last resort of defending the contract.
> In this generation,
What about next generation? Do you know? Americans conducted a social experiment for 250 years that worked well (comparatively). OK to propose changes, just respect what worked so far. As we discussed “chcichma b’goyim” – when their ideas are based on evidence rather than superstition, ok to listen.
GH, great, so put the stickers up! It was $2.30, not $3.20 in Jan 2021, $3.30 in Jan 2022, so 40% of increase is pre-putin.
But you will find it hard to fight perceptions: if you declare that you are going to kill the industry and ignore saudis, you will be blamed for the ensuring high prices. If you increase supply, then you won’t be blamed at $10/gallon.
This might be also an illustration on how gov people plan: they expected prices to go somewhat higher and gradually, getting their preferred policies at minimum political price. This was done by the domestic team that did not fully considered geo-political risks. As we got no margin, Putin saw his opportunity and used it as weapons. For example, were the Germans start building LNG terminal as they promised Trump but then reneged after the election, Russkies would have different calculation …
The core motivation of the 2nd amendment is not crime protection, but against invaders and tyrannical government. These possibilities are remote but their consequences are hard to revert.
Gun ownership obviously is not an only safeguard. If you look at countries in the world, the most stable ones are former British colonies – ahead of French/Spanish/German ones. This seem to include both countries with majority settlers (US, Australia..) both also countries with local majorities. Either Brits were good at real estate or there is something in their legal/social system.
You may also contemplate a causal connection between free food available everywhere and runaway inflation leading to $6 gas.
Teenagers especially need later bed time and later wake up time. Look up melatonin cycles.
> would that check your productivity boxes?
sure, as long as one uses 3rd party funds as they are intended, I am fine with using them.
> and raise them in a culture that produces peaceful, extremely low crime communities with vibrant businesses and lots of travel.
Again, I have no problem using gov funds for their intended purposes. I do think, gov should subsidize (responsible) parents. I think T-s tax reform let us get deductions for children regardless of income and I felt very good – not just for the thousands dollars “saved”, but for the fact that the country values our parental contribution.
Another way to demonstrate the benefit of your culture is to organize a local government, such as in Lakewood/Monsey/New Square, where you can collect local taxes from your business people and support Talmidei Chachamim under watchful direction of gedolim. If such a community prospers, everyone could see the numbers in the town accounting and look up to it. Let me know if we have an example to review.
So, if you think gas decrease from $5 to $4.50 is a winning proposition, I suggest you start putting “I did that” stickers on the gas stations with Biden pointing to the “decreased” price.
FYI – if you contemplate biking instead of driving, you are increasing your risk by a factor of 10 v. driving the same distance. Motorcycles are 3x higher than that. (These are 10 y.o European numbers)
> Is full time Torah learning not a productive lifestyle?
not from the point of view of taxpayers – other than classes accredited academically and qualifying for educational subsidies. Maybe, if we behave in a way that Americans see the value of learning and write it in the law and regulations, then it will be great. Say, one who gets unemployment/welfare can either be learning a profession, search for work, or learn Torah. For example, Aleph has a certified program that helps prisoners and they are teaching Torah there, leading to earlier release.
Would it be possible to qualify kollel classes as educational the way some yeshivos/seminaries do? Maybe PhD in Yevamos?common > push the so call clean stuff.
news alert: EU just included gas and nuclear back into “green”. Greens are getting red from anger at that.
> moshiach is on his way
Omein. Is he going to subsidize esrogim? (cf. Rav Huna – either vinegar become wine or prices of vinger went up).
amom > Men going into chinuch is also a completely different topic than kollel men
I see it as relates topic of men not getting prepared to earn parnosah. Again, not to deny the wonderful Rebbes and learners. I am talking about those for whom this derech is not working out.
Just read R Avigdor Miller who is speaking very carefully: yes, it is a good idea to teach a kid the language of the country so that he can earn a living. No, it does not mean that if your yeshiva is not teaching that language, that this is wrong. don’t think that. But, if your yeshiva does teach that language, they are doing the right thing. I hope I reproduced this pretzel correctly.
Avram > projecting it onto an entire group of people.
to a degree, yes. Some people with whom I had such experience, clearly felt superior based on superficial look at our demographics without knowing anything about the family and talked from that perspective. I perhaps talk similarly when asked about statistics of something by an amateur (and I probably did it here when we were doing covid numbers). In my defense, I can say that none of the Talmidei Chachamim that I consulted about these issues, tried to correct my misunderstandings and mostly commiserated. Not because I was out of control – I was specifically asking whether I am reacting correctly.
amom, I hear you. (and I am sure Israeli kollel wives will deny that they have difficulties and find a tirutz for your concerns).
We have a lot of halochos that are built to maintain good social behaviors even in the face of potential bad behavior. As the daf is starting ketubos – we encourage chatanim to spend some money on the wedding – so that he has hard time deciding soon after the marriage that single life was better, why just not give her a get … and, in general, we have a ketubah and not saying “most husbands will be good”. what I am saying here, there are modern mechanisms to monitor business and learning processes – and I am wondering whether they are used or could be used. Say, I can see how my kids learned math by looking at standardized test. I can’t evaluate their mishna skills with the same precision, and you probably can’t evaluate your husband’s learning – or even his learning when you were getting married. Maybe, every rosh yeshiva provides exact feedback on the level of learning to brides & wives, do they?
Avram,
you are humbly describing your productive lifestyle using available government program as part of it. I also used welfare for several months when I was in a similar stage of life. I still get paid by the government by applying for competitive contracts … In the considered – hypothetical – case, if there were a government program listing Torah learning as an allowable occupation (a sign Moschiach is coming?) one can make a case for taking that money, despite Rambam’s opposition.Current life is, on one hand, incredibly safe on average comparing with the past – we have less sickness, better healthcare and fire department, GPS, calories printed on every food item – , and, on the other hand, full of potential dangers that are very close to everyone – random people driving on your street, random people contacting kids on social media … The first leads people to understand when there is unusual danger and the second means that we need to interfere in almost every moment to prevent these dangers.
At the times when half of the kids did not survive childhood and you knew everyone in your neighborhood – comparative risk of the kid going to the store was very low.
New definition of chutzpah. We need to demand a shomer shabbos Jew on Supreme Court in the name of equity so that he can point this out.
I am not denying some insight from these comparisons, but Europe literally consists of people who during last several hundreds of years preferred to stay in their current condition rather than taking a chance and hopping on a boat to the New World. Either they were very rich and comfortable or did not dare. No surprise these people don’t want to own their self-protection! Note that most of them had no problems killing lots of people as long as they were doing it as part of a large group and under orders.