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Syag > – there were people who died from covid that they coincidently got very shortly after the vaccine with no exposure to covid.
I see what you mean now, thanks.
I do not discount that a vaccine can be a stress on the body and in some marginal cases make someone’s condition worse. As I suggested before, and CDC now says the same, people should have more than 2 months between vaccines.
Now what is the physical explanation of this hypothesis – of getting covid after the vaccine? It is not physically possible to get for the vaccine, this is not live vaccine, or do you question that? maybe vaccination procedure be unsafe, exposing a usually careful person to unvaccinated? if a room is not ventilated, then coming after a sick person may lead to exposure. Could it be a case of covid tester doinf or interpreting antibody test incorrectly – one test is sensitive to vaccine, another is not? doubtful, but possible, I guess.. other than that, I am at a loss what would be the explanation be other than a random coincidence. Maybe this (again, assuming there is statistical association which I am not aware of as of now): a person has weakness after vaccination, that causes him to get tested for covid, so gets diagnosed with a higher chance than otherwise,.
particular case sounds even more doubtful – the Rav was diagnosed 17 days after the first vaccine; documented heart problems were in days 2 to 5, 17 sound like a stretch; and for the first vaccine, age groups starting from 30 see no increase in myocarditis cases.
I am also not sure why those concerned with vaccinations are focused on the cases of covid after vaccination. I would think they should focus on cases when someone was vaccinated and did not have covid; unless they are suggesting that vaccine causes covid in some way.
RR44, I see, I double-checked just published research on myocarditis after vaccines:
onset of symptoms is within 7 days from the vaccine, not 17, and rates of myocarditis for men in age groups 30 and older after first Pfizer vaccine (and 60 and older for 2nd vaccine close in time) are not elevated. At the same time, risk of myocarditis for people older >= 75 after covid is 30x higher than the baseline.RR44, if I understand your posts right, you think that he was possibly niftar due to the vaccine. Publicly available information seem to suggest that he got covid and was sick for a week from that. Unless you have some definite information that the above is incorrect, then – my opinion – the rumors that you quote were generated by people who have some agenda. It does not mean at all that the Rav or people around him had the agenda.
Gadol > we had exhausted both the substantive and emotional sugyot derived from “hilchos vaccination”.
I don’t think so. We have halochos that are being fine-tuned over centuries. Surely this pandemic raised a lot of halakhic and mussar questions that will eventually become part of our life. So far, we are too close to the event. Syag, unfortunately, does not help us to move ahead here – she voices her disagreement but does not explain what she thinks, so I am not able to respond to her concerns.
I am glad everyone here are too truthful to take the job! (or at least those who said so).
On the other hand, sometimes you need to do something on behalf of the tzibur (Mordechai being an example).
At the end of Hagigah, there is a statement that Gehinom does not burn Talmidei Chachamim. The question is – what are they doing in Gehinom in the first place? some explain that they are there to help others, which does not seem to fully rhyme with an unqualified statement of the Gemorah. [I did not have time to look it up “thanks” to daf Yomi, if someone did – please post!]
I think here is the connection: A story goes about a group of Rabonim riding a train in Poland in 1920s. They would come out at the stations to meet local Jews who came to greet them. (elderly) Chofetz Chaim stayed inside. (a youngster) R Meir Shapiro (Daf Yomi connection) asked him why he is not coming out. Ch Ch said – it is asur because it is gaavah. R Shapiro asked – and what is the punishment for gaava? Ch Ch thundered: GEHINOM. Oh, said R Shapiro, and is this too much of a punishment to withhold a pleasure of seeing a tzaddik from thousand of Yidden who came to the train!? Ch chaim agreed and started coming out for the rest of the trip. I think they both relied on this Hagigah Gemora that they’ll not get burned. And this also rhymes with the explanation above – that they get to Gehinom because they were doing something for others and, in the process, did something not fully proper.
> I’m asking because I wasn’t alive then
coffee, come on, man, I saw you holding NY Times with “Dewey defeats Truman” headline
coffee, jackk would say that D-s would always save us from a depression – just give them enough years and they eventually will (like FDR and Obama, the latter tried to spend 6 years growing slooowly out of recession), or by saying that things would have been worse otherwise (same Obama claiming that 2008 was “great recession” to justify his approach.
Of course, evaluating policy effect is very complicated. Maybe the best one would be to compare educated forecasts with later performance. In recent history, Biden was expected to do even better than Trump, no inflation risk, then temporary inflation, then inflation. Trump was expected to ruin economy and he did not. Obama was expected to improve economy quickly – and he took 6 years.
Avram > a lot of the initial coordinated cancelling came about while Russia was still seemingly utilizing surgical strikes
for most enlightened nations, an unprovoked war in Europe sounded unbelievable. Western Europeans built up theories that if they engage Rashiim in oil trade, then mutual benefit will lead to peace despite all indications to the contrary. Thus, when their beliefs were shuttered, they had to respond (either because they admitted new reality, or they admitted that their politics was failing and they have to show a change).
This is like Noach who “believed and did not believe” and did not go inside the tevah until water came to his feet. Except that Noach was building the Tevah for 120 years despite not fully internalizing what will happen, but Europeans did not prepare for the worst, including Ukrainians themselves – they had 30 years to put IEDs under the roads and build road blocks. They actually woke up a couple of days in advance, thanking US for the info, and were able to move their equipment from being bombed and block the rail connections.
I read about tzaddik who was in Soviet GULAG when he heard that Stalin is sick. He went to say tehilim asking Hashem to have the rasha died and, in his words, “did not stop until I was told that he died”.
With this maaseh rav precedent, FaceMeta usually forbids calls for death to invaders (and Putin himself?) on the territory of Ukraine, Russia and several countries around it. It is revealing that the list only covers Eastern Europe and Caucasus, the rest of the world can not fully express themselves on meta…
It does not mean that being a politician requires to do despicable behaviors, but one would definitely come up with cases where one need to meet despicable people, not disclose full truth, etc.
Mordechai decreased his rank in Sanhedrin due to his political activities and was only respected by “rov”, that 51%?
> All people are responsible for the sins and crimes of their ancestors so long as they have not taken any steps towards teshuva.
what is the source of that? I learned that when people continue aveiros of their parents, then they are punished. It is, of course, often a case when a nation continues on the same path as usual, taking previous attitudes for granted. Still, post-Soviet countries went through a lot of changes and they might not have kept same attitudes. I think when we talk about a fully autonomous aggressive nations, like Germany, Russia, then they can’t be treated normally unless they did a formal teshuva, reparations, etc even if this cannot return the lives lost (something Germany did and Russia did a little in the 90s), but it is a different thing when you talk about countries that were subjugated themselves, like Ukraine. If they changed their attitudes, then this should be enough. I am not saying they did, I don’t know enough, although electing a Jewish president with 80% and fighting Russians like they do show something.
We are having inflation, Russians are having hyper-inflation, count your brochos.
Avira, I think, common uses “frum” as a short form for charedi, he is not including regular shomer shabbos Jews.
Syag, risks from vaccines are way smaller than from virus, especially for old people and I think you know that. Here we are talking about a 98-y.o. who had 1 vaccine and then actually got the virus and was niftar one week after having virus and actually being sick (see an article at the time asking for tehilim for covid symptoms, not vaccine complications). I get it that you disagree with my extreme moral judgment position, but here we are talking obvious facts.
Avira, I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about how we should relate to R Soloveichik, I agree here with you that this is beyond our level, but a methodological point: making judgment about his position based on a book that is written by a person who is critical of his positions in general. The author may or may not be correct, but you simply get a confirmation bias kick from reading sources that affirm your position. This is ain’t a way to learn.
Avira,
I know some of his students and they are none of what you mentioned. Maybe I am in the wrong circles. Please keep in mind that this is similar to Chabad students – people who would otherwise learn nothing, learned from R Soloveichik, go to Chabad houses, etc. And while we should apply normal rules to those who become Rabbbis/leaders, among people who grew at modernishe day schools or went to Chabad houses, these are – in our times – not people who abandoned tradition in favor of modernity, but people who were already assimilated and then went to learn something, or sent their kids to learn something.I think the halakha is that you say a brocha seeing a monarch even when you are not a subject. You run to see him/her to appreciate a glimpse of power that is a small reflection of Hashem’s power.
Not sure about Americans. Maybe it is not appropriate of the colonies are still considered to be in rebellion. Not sure of treaty of Paris closed that chapter.
But to RR44, they are not reigning yet, so we should put it on record what we think of them now.
RebE, it was, sadly, for many elderly people. Many of them were in slowly decreasing condition, but could have lived that way for some years to come, and halakha considers a decrease of life akin to murder. I think people who come up with these denial theories are simply not able to confront the reality that their uncareful behavior contributed to those deaths.
Charlie, Mishna Pesachim mentions this as one of the things Rabbis did not approve of Chizkiahu. That was from the time when it was possible to have leaders who did both great things and mistakes. Baruch Hashem, we live in greater times.
again, this is some perversion of discussing sins of Cossacks while Russians are bombing Ukraine.
Maybe discussing sins of Russians would be more appropriate (and numerous). for one, most of Cossack horrors are not from the time they were roaming steppes and attacking wandering Jews, but from the time when they were employed by Czars as a separate police force to keep Jews and everyone else in check, similarly to how now Russians have Chechen units that they are sending to pacify other ethnicities. It does not mean that all Chechen are pro-Russian, as most were fighting against.It is reported today that Dems are happy with a slight bump in Biden’s numbers and he himself is telling them that they might keep the house – playing Comm-in-Chief at the expense of Ukraine…
Unfortunately, this means that further actions will be in part based on the need to look good, so there will be again long-winded explanations why it is so wise not to do X and Y…
bina > yiden lived in Ukraine for centuries
history of Yidden in Ukraine is somewhat complicated:, Yidden moved on their own volition to Poland where they lived more free than in other European countries, and moved their to Ukraine often as contractors for Polish aristocrats to run their remote estates. Then, Poland was divided in 18th century between Russia, Austro=Hungary and Germany and Ukraine belonged to the first two. Within Russia, they were not allowed to move to Russia proper, so they stayed in Ukraine/Belorus/Poland/Lita area until Russians got rid of the Czar.
After several violent years (and a brief Ukrainian state), Jews were able to move to the rest of USSR – but it was not much better there. Sometimes USSR moved them to Siberia without their will.RR44, both Hamodia and YWN reported that Rav contracted the virus (17 days after getting 1st vaccine), there was a separate article at that time asking for tehilim when he was tested, and was niftar a week after that. So, it is not a mix up.
RebE > Chasam Sofer explains the passage תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם,
+1.
I understood it as one of the definition of T’Ch – if you seem someone achieving machlokes, then he is not T’Ch. This seems to contradict the idea that a Rav that is liked by everyone may not be strong enough… Maybe there is a difference here:
As we heard in a video where a woman was provoking an Ashkenzi Rav first and a Sefardi one later “Hu Rav, Ani Chacham”I am also hesitant here, but I just read a very respected Gen Deptula who says that we don’t let Russians to decide what is appropriate and that fighter jet are not different from pocket knives, they are “weapon systems”. Even if Ukrainians don’t need more planes right now, they should have them for spare parts and when they need it.
Political angle: US said several days ago that we support Poles doing it on their own, seemingly because they knew that Poles are hesitant to do it. Now, when Poles shifted the risk to NATO/EU, then we are suddenly saying “Ukrainians don’t really need them”.
In truth, the real need is to provide no-fly zones over humanitarian corridors from the cities that are being bombed.
Avram,
this boycott is so coordinated due to brutality of events – and reaction of population. Even those politicians who would prefer doing nothing, see how people react and follow them. Maybe it is a good thing that world has a moment of clarity in the face of evil, and we need to acknowledge that.Avira, I am not questioning R Soloveichik’s positions, I am saying that you can’t know that you learned about his position by reading a quote from a source that tries to make an ideological point. You learned R MM’s interpretation, not R Soloveichik. I would even posit that reading original after you read a ideological interpretation is also difficult due to “crystallization” – original interpretation colors your further understanding. Maybe need to read several of the original sources to make sure you see him and not the interpreter.
Avram, I think I understand what you are saying, but I think fretting about these possible side effects is sort of inappropriate in the view of ongoing carnage and risk of escalation. There are so many real issues here. This is like those who worry about vaccine side effects in the face of a sickness.
> So NOW, 6 months later, you tell me……..
No, you are told 6 months IN ADVANCE!
Dofi, I agree with you. Still, he had some good intentions, not just parroting party line, and he was knowledgeable in some issues, being a nuclear engineer. See how he spent his post-presidency: mostly doing small things, rather than flying around partying, I think.
jackk, you list things as pure speculation. They are not. They are _predictions_ by a number of reasonable people that came true. Your explanations are excuses. Yes, things can go badly without President’s responsibilities, but here there are many and they were predictable.
For example, right now, we can’t find people willing to sell oil at $130 a barrel! Arabian prince is not picking up the phone; US oil companies do not trust the government not to stub them in the back. Looks like they can only find some commies who feel good about increasing production. This is way underperforming the image of a statesman. Maybe call Kushner and ask him to negotiate, or he does not pick up the phone also? And yes, I am sure you can explain why Saudis are not helping, despte helping numerous other US Presidents.
Do we have support in Tanach or Gemora for discounts given to evildoers who target all nations, without specifying Jews? Or maybe Avira picked up Zionist virus of nationalism. I would think that seeing Z on Russian trucks should stop you!
Or maybe it is from not paying attention during world history classes. Many reshaim were doing bad things to everyone. For example,
Sanheriv had a policy of moving nations around to better control them, not just Jews (Stalin copied it, including w/ Crimean Tatars and planning for Jews).
Romans had no special cruelty towards Jews, that is how they suppressed everyone. “Carthage has to be destroyed”. And this is what Rashbi says – they build roads to collect taxes, etc. Nothing about anti-semitism.
Even Hamas seems to be triggered by Mordechai’s behavior, not his nation. And he presents a general case to Ahashverosh – a distributed nation …Avira > find it in rav moshe meiselman’s “torah chazal and science”
??
It appears from position of R MM that his derech MIGHT be different from R Soloveichik. I am not accusing him of distortions, but it would seem one would be better off looking up R Soloveichik’s positions in the original to make sure he gets the correct picture.Hashem granted Carter a long life so that he does not stay a worst President. That means Hashem accepted his good intentions despite poor results.
> What should he be doing differently?
US seems to do some reasonable things – after declaring and trying everything else… most important: they consistently act according to some great theories – until theories fail, instead of analyzing things deeply and listening to multiple views. In this case, they follow the idea that deterrents should be gradual because if you use all of them, there is no more deterrent. So, we first don’t do SWIFT, then we do. We buy oil, then we don’t buy oil – when Congress threatens to embarrass the President.. . We don’t transfer planes, then we say we do, but Poland doesn’t, then Poland does, and we don’t know what to do. We don’t do no-fly zone, but maybe later we will.
This seemingly did not work at all, and continues so. Every time, Russians see this as a weakness. Imagine if a month ago there would be 100% sanctions, all european MIGs would be flying Belorussian border and all Javelins in place. Putin would have ended up saying – what are you talking about? I told you this was an exercise, why are you overreacting. Western leaders would look silly, apologize, maybe even lose elections, but there would be no war. Possibly. This is not simple. Just outlining a possibility.
Another: Kabul. Many people immediately said that the weakness invites Russians and Chinese to do something. They were right..
> Republican party from a healthy distrust of Russia to a almost adulation since the 2010s
who would be that? Pompeo? Pence? McConnell? Graham? I don’t think so. Trump who tried to cancel NS2? Some minor congressman or a fox news personage? I am confused what you are talking about – or just feel a need to rebut the charge against Ds.
This sad OP is a sign of not teaching subjects like “goyishe history” and ignoring Jewish history also.
If you would really interested in this topic, you would compare & contrast events that you mention with number of Jews and Ukrainians who ended their life killed by NKVD and Russian labor camps. Many frum Jews who survived those times remembered that, but Jewish establishment, being mostly “progressive”, ignored USSR crimes when the beast was alive, and it seems that this general attitude is now popular even among observant Jews whose grandparents did not pass their knowledge to them.huju, there is no proof that Putin wanted Trump to be president or that he wanted him to be re-elected.
He obviously wanted to have a week president and, to that end, made Hillary look bad before the election. There is no proof that he knew better than all pollsters in US that Trump is going to win.
On re-election: did we have any dirt released on Biden (other than by Hunter himself)? why didn’t Putin stole from FDA and released embargoed vaccine results?On policies – was he happy with T stopping NS2, stimulating oil production, posing some opposition to him in Syria, sending weapons to Ukraine? most of these immediately and predictably reversed by Biden. I just don’t see where is the case for Putin trying to re-elect T, unless Putin is over-watching MSNBC …
ubi, a good question. If you are allowed to search for a new job, then why can’t someone help you in that? Maybe the difference is who is Jewish in various scenarios. Would result be different if the babysitter were Jewish? If you have a chance to give a Jewish babysitter a better job, is this wrong?
But re:headhunter, even if it is mutar, you may not want to do that job yourself. Similar to meter-maids – they do a necessary job, but who wants the ayn hara!? (I once put a quarter into someone’s meter when the metermaid was coming and she gave me an ayn hara back!).
mariampol is in lita/poland, mariupol is in eastern ukraine, I don’t think it is the same thing
Avira, how is this Chazon Ish relevant to a Jew who was under soviet rule for 3 generations? Next, you’ll tell us we can’t read Megilas Esther because she was married to a non-Jew and had a private dinner with two non-kosher goyim.
ubi, employer/employee relationship is a contract, but not of equals. Halakha recognizes it. Employee has an aspect of avdut as employer control employee’s time. So, employee is allowed to quit without prior notice. There might be an issue of damages if someone is not done on time or spoils, but the employer should let employee go even if this causes inconvenience in order not to enslave him.
So, it should be possible for employee to consider another job. On the other hand, you should be sensitive and not to take away a job from a Jew who is already working, unless it is a rare opportunity that is important for you.
For the US:
As US became richer, number of regular people needing a hike decreased. So, the chances that a hiker is a dangerous person increased, and generally picking up people is not a social norm anymore.Waze allows people to register as riders and drivers. If you have specific Jewish destinations, I suggest may people aware of this Waze option so that people register and start helping each other.
> I have not checked any of this up (no time) but just pointing out and suggesting
nice. I wonder whether gotaggodpoint is mechalel shabbos or stole anything lately, or maybe watches inappropriate movies. Just a though, no time check. < Hope for mod understanding >
motcha, I thought I heard this about R Yaakov, but that charity might have gone thru a number of meshulachim 🙂
Sam, R Eliezer, great we are in agreement. If you want to ensure you are a Rebbe l’shem shamayim, you can do this: work in a well-paid profession half a day/week and then teach for free the rest of the time. You will be free from thinking that you are teaching for money, you will not be scared by principals or parents.
> what extent do we have to suffer (with higher gas prices etc.
This is overhyped as yet another excuse for current economic policies. Gas prices are going up without US boycotting Russia. US gets 3% of supply from Russia. Arabs and US are capable of increasing supply by a lot. We do need to worry about nuclear WW3, but other things are less of a concern.
akuperma, yes on marriage, but I think handling non-mevushal wine is going too far on this type of sofek. I believe for public purposes that do not have lasting consequences, when you see someone behaving like a kosher Jew, you don’t have to inquire further. We check out a new kohen in shul not because we are concerned that he’ll read a wrong part of the Torah but because we don’t want people to conclude that he is a kohen if he is not.
Sam,
I hold in high esteem people who are happy with their helek, don’t spend time working and spend time learning. I suspect this is not a majority of people, though.I have less respect to those who are doing hishtadlus but then expect to get something they did not earn, such as using non-Jewish welfare funds, force Israelis to be zevuluns, working as Rebbes when they are not good at that, etc.
Not doing hishtadlus expecting a miracle, like a lottery, also seems suspect. Either you are a tzadik and deserve a miracle, and then this miracle is subtracted from your zechus; or you do’t and then either you will be frustrated and disappointed or become a thief and dishonest person in some way.
Also, our times allow us to escape this shtark trade-off between hard work and learning. There are plenty of jobs where you can be involved in mitzvos, so you are not wasting time. You can go teach torah, open your own school, babysit, open a Chabad house, a kosher restaurant, or be a mashgiach, be a doctor, a lawyer, a social worker, a soldier – each of these jobs involve a lot of good things you can do for Jews and other people.
Gadol, you sound convincing, but I saw 3-7% of US oil/gas imported from Russia thrown around. In terms of investment, again you sound like a bokeh, but common business sense says that future prospects determine desire to invest. If federal government is openly (but not during debates, though) says that it will shut you down like a virus – desire to invest decreases.
We had people boycotting bunch of countries, including Israel, for a lot of milder issues. There is green investing. How is avoiding supporting murder not a good investment advise?