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Gadol > Their most recent study showed that federal employees are underpaid by as much as 22-35 percent
I may sound like a virus denier here, but I am layering personal experience over the statistics. A lot of those employees are dead weight. They request you to send some nonsense paperwork and then have multiple meetings going over that. They have no insight of the cost that their work to the government directly or to the private sector they are supervising. It is a logical market consequence of lack of accountability. Just compare Amazon prime with proverbial DMV or IRS.
You look at it philosophically, as part of the federal process that is intended to be inefficient but rule-based non-partisan harmless process. Except that it became too powerful and possibly captured partisan from the time of FDR. Simple reason – progressive-minded people are motivated to go work for the powerful government, often with the zeal of Trotsky.
Gadol, not to disparage some of those yidden, and not to deny some brilliant people in the government, but, as a group, people around DC are not sacrificing much. Unfortunately, several richest zip codes are now around DC and not in productive industries. Many people who work for the government would earn considerably less in private sector.
You are right, we should have sent them to Soviets, let them have those missiles. You sound more and more like a leftwinger.
> Is Delta inherently more lethal,
it is not, and so from preliminary observation is th new omicron.
Trivia question: WHY WHO SKIPPED XI? Because she is a “common name”. This is after they had to invent the whole letter system to avoid using “wuhan virus”. Like the Arnevet that was mis-translated in septuaginta not to offend Ptolemian queen.> We also find that the parents want college…sometimes more than the bochurim.
I heard a YU Rebbe pushing (gently) against parents – would it hurt if he’ll become a lawyer a couple of years later? How about we have a Masters program where you can learn, but so that law/med school does not question what you were doing for these two years … This attitude towards parents might have made sense early on – but by now those parents are graduates of the same institutions, so they know well what the options for kids are.
> Bread salt and water isn’t enough you say?
al pi same Rambam, a Talmid Chacham has to be dressed decently by the standards of the time. This would presume at least dry cleaning, washing machine, a working car, maybe a home with wooden floor. You also supposed to teach a kid a profession so that he will not be a bandit, so either he needs to work with his hands, and if can’t, with his head, thus college.
> Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.
Drisha defines a working person as someone who only learns 3 hours, and thus should not learn Gemora, just halocha. I guess things were harder for Ashkenazim than for Sephardim during Rambam’s times…
> still supports the idea of having a democracy?
you dare to use this Greek word on the heilecke night of Hanukkah?!
A related question is – what is the source of the brocha that Ashkenazim got to grow like fish? Besides Torah scholarship, a possible answer is – beans. New agricultural methods introduced in Northern Europe in middle ages involved cross-growing beans and grain. Population was usually limited by amount of available protein that, in turn, was limited by amount of livestock that was limited by multiple factors – amount of grain, fields, labor … Beans introduced additional protein that lead to growth of population in Northern Europe comparative to Mediterranean. It also lead us to a kitniyos issue on Pesach, but it seems to be a small price to pay.
ujm,
according to papers, the exemption age was just lowered from 24 to 21, will go up to 22 but will allow vocational training or national service after 21. I am sure I am mixing up something here, hope someone knows better. I would think that someone who was learning full time from age 4 to 21, or 24, would have enough skills to quickly learn a profession. When internet was starting, I had a chance to help several T’Ch and professors to get to the speed with the Net, and those with good Gemora education were much faster.Avira, your bag of grievances varies a lot from objective breaches of halakha to your, or your school, opinions. People who respect State of Israel, look for causes of Holocaust, teach Gemorah to ladies have significant names and arguments behind them. You and I may agree or disagree with that, and it can sometimes have undesirable effects on some people, but that does not take them into category where you can disparage them lightly. If a (great?)grandaughter of R’ Moshe Feinstein is learning Gemora, then you are saying that R Moshe did not educate his daughter well and did not select an appropriate S-I-L. If R’ Moshe did his best but you would blame later YU influence, then R’ Moshe would not remain friends with his cousin R Soloveichik who let all of that happen.
phil > DNA testing there’s a seperate catogory for Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
No, there is a separate category for Ashkenazim who came from a small number of medieval ancestors. The rest (loosely called Sepahardim) represent a wider DNA of all Jews from previous history, that is they consist of a much large set of groups both by DNA, and by minhagim and history. The “recent” (last 500-1000 years) growth of Ashkenazim obscures that.
> Is the third type people who can’t count?
I am glad someone counts here! 3rd type is maybe those who never worked?
A lot to be said for “being happy by his lot” – but it is made easier by having a bigger lot!
If you are spending time working – why not both make your work more productive to the community and world at large and why not get compensated for it?
for example – in theory – someone earning $200/hour could work for 10 hours a week and live at the level of someone earning $40/hour working 50 hours a week, and have time for family, learning, volunteering, vacations. It is rarely happening: the $200/hour guy works 50 to 80 hours anyway, but at least he has a choice.
in practice, I see more often people in teaching being concerned about money than people in professions who focus on learning in those hours they have for it. Not a universal rule, of course.
Also, an overlooked part: “parnasa” is often associated with “wasting” time earning a living to have a satisfying life after that. We live in a place where we are lucky to be able to choose what you do. Why not choose something that you enjoy doing and what is good for the community/world. Torah teaching is an obvious one, but medical, research, police, army, plumbing all qualify, especially combined with study and execution of all halakhic issues involved in each of these.
ujm, please clarify what this law says. Are you saying that if someone leaves a yeshiva and works, he then he becomes eligible for the army? till what age?
phil > “Trauma” is the code word
I agree that words could have been used better. Still, several last centuries – haskala, WW1, communism, nazis, transplant to US and Israel – would probably break any other community other than us, tough Ashkenazim, already prepared by crusades, ghettos, hmelnitsky, cantons, pogroms … But any survival is accompanied by PTSD, where T stands for Trauma and we would be better off understanding this experience.
> I would not take “toichacha” from Sephardic
“the prisoner cannot free himself” re:R Yohanan pulling a colleague out of sickness but not himself.
People from outside can sometimes help us see what we are not seeing.> , in particular Ashkenazim, are so varied, it is stupid to lump everyone into one group
yes, but we all are amazingly similar genetically (coming from ~ 100 men in middle ages), and are united by our love of fighting words, as we are amply demonstrating here.
DY > There no ona’ah on real estate, and that’s what a room rental is.
Is this so? I did not think of catering as RE transaction? Is the hall the ikar or is the food and service?
You may be right as the bottleneck allowing a fee is due to RE. Thanks for the correction.As Gadol mentions this could be up to community beis din/Rov to limit such fees. Maybe allow fee for “Chanuka parties” per se, but not for the brisim and bar mitzvas
N0, To your point, maybe mutations are the reason for recent second rounds of Covid? Possibly in some communities with low vaccinations and high number of kids in unprotected schools, virus is indeed endemic (circulating continuously) and hits again with mutations?
I also have to admit that I was wrong thinking that people who are immune to logical arguments will get it when it hits close (R Avigdor Miller explains that we are to learn a lesson from a disaster somewhere in Far East, if not, it will hit again closer at home, and the worst is getting “educated” by being hit yourself). But I digress from the anecdotal data point: several close families I know had Covid recently. In one, an only unvaxed person spent several weeks sufffering, the rest not a big problem. In another – (reluctantly) vaxxed adults did not even know they had it until the kid was sick and got tested. Now that adult who had no symptoms said “What did that vaccine do? I got it anyway”. I can only attribute this to a “long covid fog”.
n0 > immunity has to hold against viral mutations.
you are right, but I am presuming that further infections by mutations will be increasingly milder and that is what “endemic” means. Also, there will be less mutations with more immunity. With the world now 55% vaccinated, the cup is half-full, not half-empty.
Inequality coefficient GINO for Israel 39 is indeed higher among peer developed countries: a little lower than USA (41) and above UK, Australia, Spain,Italy (35-36) and more socialist OECD countries (France, Germany 32 Canada 33 Poland Sweden 30 Norway 26). US and Israel are the only two decent countries with Gino that high, the rest are communists and other dictatorships.
While inequality is a universal human condition (even in socialist countries where most are equally poor, but some “are more equal”), there is no doubt that many Jewish poor are there for self-imposed reasons. As ujm says, many are happy this way, but many are not – for example, parents selected this way and kids are less interested.
RebE, Nittel Nacht seems to be referenced in writing from 17th century, so we do not have a tradition of following it by Julian calendar. Maybe countries that accepted Gregorian calendar later could have this tradition: British/Russian/Ottoman empires, some Swiss, Saudi Arabia ..
> refers to the game of Nardshir, as is a good mind stimulant. Rashi explains this as Chess.
Nardshir from Persian Narde, is backgammon and indeed a reference to Ardshir king. So, Rashi got the history right, but not the right game. Wiki brings this Gemroah as the first historical reference to the game. I thikn chess and backgammon are different enough to be confused or exchange names.
Ardshir is a Persian version of Xerxes, so maybe a hidden reference to Ahsahverosh?!
Avira, maybe we go in different circles and this is fine. I don’t see much difference in learning between MO and more traditional Rabbis I was ever learning, despite differences in views. As an experiment, I several times re-packaged a serious thought from a MO Rav to an anti-MO one with appropriate word change, the latter was very much on board with the concepts. I did not test quoting by name. So, to me, when you disparage “MO” attitudes you do it at your own risk of disparaging multiple Talmidei Chachamim. Maybe we just need a better term for the attitudes you dislike.
The post was in now way offensive, it contemplated real issues. Maybe it should have been written in a slightly lighter way. Still, the immediate visceral “ashkenazi lives matter” reaction was way inappropriate and shows that any community can fall low.
Maybe part of the reason that most are accustomed to Reform/MO/non-Jewish views and understand what they hear. In this case, a traditional Sephardi view was not on their radar and sounded unfair. General musar advice is when you hear an accusation – even if it feels unfair, stop and contemplate and try to find a morsel of truth even in the most unfair accusation. If you find it, you will benefit from it even if the accuser did not intend to benefit you (which is not a case here).
> Retired.
> Never retire.I observe there are 3 types of people: those who can’t wait until they retire and those who are not aware that there is a retirement age.
turns out Sephardic view of Ashkenazim is a controversial topic. This was a legit question, in my opinion, but very sad negative reaction. As R Tarfon said – nobody in this generation can accept Tochacha …
Avira, I pologize. maybe you need to clarify what you call “MO” schools that you cry about. Maybe there is some better term to clarify.
Also, in defense those “MO” schools that do what you say – these schools might have many children from not-very-observant families to begin with. Parents seek a private prep school with Jewish flavor. They may not go to more “Jewish” schools. The “only” problem that kids from observant “MO” families go to same schools and who wins is not known lehathila …
> don’t allow the chareidim to work unless they convert to Zionism.
this wins the prize for an excuse. Learn to code and work remote for an American company.
Re Stiller. On one hand, we learn from r Hirsh that it is not avoda zora and it is permissible to value what one finds good in non Jewish thought. On the other hand, of course, we see that we can be too optimistic… Hanukkah coming, we have a similar case with Greeks with more time for hindsight. With this history, I am decidedly undecided in the debate between those who say that usa is a new reincarnation of Esav and those who think this is the best thing after sliced bread. To quote r Steinzalz, let’s talk again in 200 years. So meanwhile we need to navigate practical halokhos: eat turkey bli hallel. Be grateful but cautious
It will be endemic by definition when almost everyone has either a vaccine or a disease and thus will be less affected by the virus, same as other common colds. A new variant already emerged or may emerge, and biontech is committed to start shipping a new vaccine in 100 days if needed. Most developed countries were able to vaccinate 2 percent of population per day, so we are talking 4 month total cycle to vaccinate all except the obstinate, who will go through 2-3 diseases in the next couple of years
I think halacha allows that as long as you are aware of the pricing. If you were to come in without doing market research and he would add the price without explaining, this would be wrong and you could demand it back if overcharge was more than 1/6 (20 percent of normal price)
I think yabia is right in we need to compare final outcomes: longevity and overall health, although it includes many factors including food, education, lifestyle. We also need to compare similar populations. Fwiw, I think the Obamacare introduction coincided with first in long time reduction of lifespan in us, COVID beating that of course.
I am happy to see ctlawyer in great health, as he can now see market policy as a solution! This is, for me, easy siman when considering new proposals – do they do obvious before spending another trillion
Yabia is right that Ashkenazim we’re affected by haskala, while Sephardim were not. Modernity arrival was probably the most dramatic event in Jewish history after destruction of 2 beis mikdash with whole fabric of society changing. The problems we are discussing now are just an echo of what was happening 100-200 years ago. Without going into all ways it affected us, one outcome is that we indeed divided into factions, while Sephardim still see themselves as one community, some more observant, some less … Wherever they do fight, I am reminding them not to learn the worst from us
For those on the pro-Thanksgiving side, some humility is still in order. Consider R Hirsh praise of Shiller, this did not age well.
The real issue is that this is a holiday that we can relate to. Just re-read Lincoln’s 1863 proclamation and I do not discern any hint of avoda zara. Tell me if you see it below. The main objection could be danger of assimilation and absorbing non-Jewish holidays. So, it is a tough piece of turkey…
ever watchful providence of Almighty God. ..No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. … as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. ..And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.
> Chess is only muttar on Nittel Nacht.
Rav Feinstein played until he was 8 or 9 years old and stopped on his own because it interfered with his learning (another writer clarifies – because he played too seriously and it did not feel like relaxation and thus took time fro learning). So, it seems that even if you feel that you are smarter than R Feinstein at 8, you can still play if it is relaxing. Also, Shmuel Reshevsky played all his life and nobody in Monsey put him to herem.
Avira,
ps appeal to an authority you would accept about different paths for different people: mY friend and I briefly re-connected with our long-before Teacher from Lakewood at a Simcha. I was in a PhD program, my friend was a somewhat successful musician, both in the community and in Jazz. We compared notes afterwards: Rav told my friend to drop everything and go to a yeshiva out of town, and told me to add a specific shiur in town.Avira > Most gedolim’s opposition for it to be the communal norm
Look, communal norm is an important issue, I agree, especially with communal disarray in the last two centuries. Yes, there is nonsense taught in schools and yes there are parents who send kids to colleges and lose them. Still, there are different individuals and you don’t need to disparage them to defend your communal norm. Take, say, CTLawyer’s family – his great-grandather, I think, came from a business in Germany to start a business in US. It is nonsense to say that his family should shun science and technology and just go sell shmatas on amazon like everyone else.
Who puts hings like that in the will?
philosopher, YWN front page reports that Rav Chaim supports vaccinated children. Do you have a different psak from someone else?
Kluger, thanks, this is legit CDC text. What it says is:
IF infected, vaccinated and not produce similar viral load. I confirmed this understanding by reading the paper [1[ referred there. What you need to add to this information is that vaccinated get infected 10x less. This is described by the paper [2] referred nearby that estimated 87% (AZ), 92% Pfizer and 95% Moderna (that is 8x, 12x and 20x) reduction in symptomatic infections against Delta.So, taken together, someone who is vaccinated is 6 to 20x less likely to transmit to someone else.
Caveats:
1. We know now that effectiveness decreases with time
2. These reduction numbers are for the same behavior. As people relax their behavior, their risk growsThe question I have is whether how someone’s risk level depends on antibodies – are people with low antibodies the only ones vulnerable or everyone else has some low risk hat will be amplified by risky behavior.
[1] Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et alVaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31;
[2] Effectiveness of mRNA and ChAdOx1 COVID-19 vaccines against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe outcomes with variants of concern in Ontario> a fake degree might land a job
I think the question was about fake institutions, not fake applicants. So, some places just need minimal qualifications as a formality, so there is no geneiva daas involved.
Other places need a real degree with professional knowledge, so they protect themselves by hiring from known institution and avoiding College of Lower Catskills.
Still, many people go to such degree mills, spend some money on it and then discover that they are not employable. This would be geneiva daas. Acknowledging that the same is happening with nominally respectable colleges in their non-employable departments. Not to Avira: there are many degree programs where nonsense classes that you mention are required at a minimum and do not constitute bulk of studies. Your sources may be biased or misinformed.
Bishops were European substitute, Persians/Arabs had a guy on an elephant. There is something about Rashi’s confusion with elephants somewhere also … Hungary is probably close enough to the East to not get confused.
Should we play a game here?
every time there is a Teiku in a discussion, the tie should be decided by a chess game.Avira > there’s no mitzvah to be thoroughly and seriously educated
Please realize that you are talking from a certain narrow POV. Someone will certainly have a more certain parnasah, a better quality of life and self-respect, and less yetzer hara of business aveiros being an MD than selling shmatahs.
> so yidden find aitzos to get degrees and get paid more for the same jobs or start new careers without having to waste time learning about gender studies or how white supremacy is the foundation of America.
Again, this is OK for jobs that require a check on a degree, rather than serious knowledge. You surely know difference between good and average yeshivos, same exists in professional world. So, if someone gets this degree to be a store manager it is fine, but if he uses it to become, say, a supervisor of a nursing home and then loses people during Covid due to lack of knowledge, then it is not OK.
> Employers rarely verify if the claimed higher education/degree on a resume is real,
As mentioned, this is true only in places where you need a degree to make a check. There is indeed credential inflation where degrees are required just because they can ask and serves as a proof that
a person will be able to answer the phone.Everyone in a reasonably advanced business looks at the granting institution and pretty much knows what to expect from there and what to ask during interview. Many small/medium firms tend to hire from a small set of institutions. I was interviewed at a place where 50% were PhDs from a top-five institution, and they were joking warmly about lowering their standards. But they gave my presentation a fair hearing and after a year nobody mentioned my lowly pedigree.
Arguing about schools as one is absolutely better than others is silly. We have a variety of people and we need a variety of people – Yissachar, Zevulun, Levi, etc. Each of the legitimate derachim has some people who benefit from that: there are yeshivos that do not teach math graduate many Talmidei Chachamim, and there are day schools that graduates lawyers and doctors who keep shabbos. These Talmidei Chachamim will teach these doctors throughout their life, and these doctors will be curing T’Chmim … Also, there are people who would go to one type of schools and would never go to another. Both might have problems with inappropriate people not doing there what is intended and we can argue about the extent of those problems, but there is legitimacy for multiple approaches.
Avira > There are some rebbeim in modern schools (again, myself included) who are trying their best to teach authentic torah
Avira, while I agree with a lot of your criticism of MO schools, you also need to acknowledge that you personal position is rather at (one of the) extremes of the Jewish thought, as you can see in this forum. You judge everything else from the position of total disparagement of zionism, professions, etc, etc – that is of secondary boycott – everyone who would tolerate anything of the above should be in herem. Again, you can stand on your position personally an it seems to reflect your personal middos, maybe you are gilgul of Pinchas – but, intellectually, you should give room for other opinions when you judge something as “legitimate”. There is a lot of precedent for such approach – giving hashgaha for something you would not eat personally, for example.
Given the sofek, and considering that saying Thanks to Creator is a mitzva meduaraita, I hereby Proclaim that one should eat turkey without shehiyanu. Those who are extra careful about hashash avoda zara can eat b’shinui – either chicken, or using traditional Yidishe potatoes.
As Syag mention, in Golus we may do bracha of kiddush on the second day of Thanksgiving.