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charlie > Judaism is really the original nationalism
not in the modern sense. Judaism does not excuse behaviors because of his nationality. Tanach differs from many ancient texts and stellas by recording negative events about Jewish leaders and people, rather than just victories. In our days, I don’t think the Author of the Tanach would able to get a haskomah or print most of the Tanach at a Jewish publisher despite his infinite powers.
charlie > he orders a school to all their limdei kodesh classes be co-ed.
One possible reason for mutual misunderstanding is that you and your opponent address different communities. I would question whether Rav Soloveichik would suggest opening a similar school in boro Park. To the best of my knowledge, he did not. Similarly, people from different communities can not comprehend his approach.
PS a case of society affecting halakha from Daf Yomi Tannis: community fasts and davens for rain and gets it. It then stops the fast and says Hallel Hagadol. Before hallel, in Israel, everyone goes home to eat to say Hallel in the proper satiated state. In Mehuza, Persia they’ll say Hallel before dinner. Why? Because in Mehuza they might drink too much at the dinner (to prevent the drink driving back to shul?)
DY, what is twisted here? I am trying to apply halakhic concepts to the issue. If you disagree, say why. Or ask you Rav and tell us what he thinks. Just because the concept does not look usual to you, does not mean you dismiss it by that.
Notice an interesting weaving of multiple concerns by r Schachter in his case: on a short flight, one should not bother anyone and daven sitting. on a long flight, you would need to stretch your legs (allowing to bother people), and you can then daven as well. I did not connect these things before, but after reading, I would not call it twisted, just “weaved together” 🙂
Is state of Israel less important than a kikayon?
Syag, your question came before my next post, where I clarified that I did not close that sefer, I just did not read the same one next time. I would not notice who is looking at me until I finished the sugya!
charlie > And an even bigger hitch is that the schools participating in these programs have to accept all students. They can’t discriminate on the basis of religion.
This might go back to Supremes similar to Catholics health plan that does not cover contraceptives. But, in a bigger picture, you are right, there will be some yeshivos that will not want to get into secular education. They are not spending much now on teaching math, so there will no benefit in increasing time on “goyishe subjects” and be paid for that (I am using the phrase borrowed from a Rav who was teaching English and History in his Chassidish yeshiva and introduced himself as “goyishe teacher”). So, this approach will strengthen only those schools that combine Jewish education with a decent general one. Or, open a way to separate Jewish schools (in the afternoon?) who may train bochrim and meidelah from multiple schools (possibly only a small percentage whose parents care about it).
Gadol > doesn’t want to have to monitor beliefs/teaching of religious schools
why should they? State is funding general education that they can monitor by testing. If the bochrim can’t write or count, the subsidy goes away. As I suggested above for people, you can do this for schools – every school (including public?) is reimbursed after a test. As of now, some Jewish school participate in private-school tests, but do not make test results available even to parents, at least in my experience.
Syag > You closed a sefer
PS I don’t think I closed the sefer. That would not have helped, maybe even made it worse. I would usually take a small Gemora volume (just one blatt of Aramaic is sufficient to put me into philosophical mode and then into sleep, so Brochos worked for many years), so I packed either an English sefer or a math one for next trips. Both sefer or math are not really hukas goyim in USA.
> You closed a sefer to appease the gentiles
Nobody approached me, but people were suspicious of Muslim terrorists. If someone were to ask, I would explain, but they were not asking. I would guess that was the moment even for a true Chacham (from the joke about the bus) to change his turban for a black hat.
l’halakha, interrupting prayer would be midrabonan, so a miduraita issue would override it. For example, a concern for flight attendant’s mental health, if she is worried about strange behavior. Of course, if she is a pure anti-semite, then the situation is opposite. And if the davening is medauraita maybe halakha will be different (plane is not doing well or the davener is claustrophobic)
Also, if you daven well, you should expect most people to respect or even be in owe. I am told that one of the first Chasidishe Rebbeim from midwest visited Uman at the sunset of USSR, before Uman became Mardi Gra. His taxi was stopped by a Ukrainian policeman who started radioing to figure out what to do with the strange man. Rav opened a Gemorah not to waste time. The policeman got frightened by the view and told him to leave immediately.
ujm, thanks. It did change from the last time I looked it up years ago! Now, the challenge is to find the relevant ones in this ocean 🙂
Avram > And I am simply trying to extract a lesson about dan l’kaf zechus and regarding your fellow Jews with basic respect.
Ok, I think we both made the point and understood each other. Apologize to the readers for this long thread. For full disclosure, when I was listening to the frictionless plane classes, I would also interrupt asking about every possible real life artifacts. And what is more important in practice? All planes deal well with obvious gravity. Better ones are dealing better with friction and other smaller factors.
> would you declare that being secretive about praying was an aveira
Logically speaking, yes. First time this would be a shogeg, but if I continue, it would be mazid. Actually, some tiime after 9/11, I encountered suspicious views in the plane when I opened a sefer. I did not feel like explaining difference between Arabic and Hebrew. I switched to books with more English or math symbols.
> separation of church and state
RebE, the concept here is that government pays for general education and it should not care who provides that education. If government decides that they want all citizens to know calculus, then the government may provide such funds to everyone. In the simplest form, you go take a calculus test, and get paid if you pass, it does not matter whether you learned it in a school, yeshiva, convent, or online.
I think it is a good case. Current court has a good chance to put a good word for non-public and religious schools. The ruling may be more expansive than the question and also make non-public schools more mainstream.
the way it was explained to me by A Chassidic Rav: EY has kedusha on its own, other places do not. So, in EY, you benefit from it but also may get in trouble. Chutz – you need to make an effort to create your own kedusha. I am sure, for many people, Brooklyn made this hishatdlus.
In American polity, NYC is an island of arrivals from abroad that eventually learn/earn enough to move to the continent itself.
> Gashmius, he answered “everyone wants, but once you have it, there is no feeling of fulfillment
indeed. R Twersky heard that one of his former patients found a large sum of money and returned to the owner. He called the guy and asked how he feels about this. The guy answered: when I used to get high, I felt good for a day. Now it is 6 months after I returned the money, and I still feel good about it.
DY > because you do that all the time
I know I am overdoing it. I just found this whole sad story very revealing in gashmiyus and ruchniyus. To quote a market Chacham said: “when the water goes away, you see who is swimming naked”. Similarly, my Rav advises to listen to children: parents learned how to say things in a way people will accept, but the children will tell you what parents really think. So, Covid created a totally “novel” environment and we can’t simply copy previous behaviors. I focus here mostly on negative examples, but, in truth, there are lot of positive ones, people doing the right things, helping others, restraining themselves from doing things. Relevant to this thread – good cases are often invisible, but no less “kiddush Hashem”. You find out sometimes by chance. I once called an old gentleman who did not come for a yom tov, he said that one of his relatives got Covid and thus, he did not come not to risk exposing others. Now, when I see someone who is exposing others to risk, I know that, but how many people abstained – we don’t know.
Avram, I am not “against the Jews”, I am simply trying to extract a lesson for us from this to grow rather than getting warm satisfaction from how good we all are against a hostile world. This is a great Jewish tradition that seems to be lost in last American generations. And again, taking your description at face value, I am not even sure why he is being arrested – he is not doing anything, he is simply not replying. I don’t think this is illegal.
As to people reacting to tefilin, whenever I had to daven shaharis before an early flight, I either did it in the car at the airport or spent several minutes looking for an empty corner, so never encountered strong reaction. I once encountered a strong reaction on a flight from LA (Louisiana, not Los Angeles) to Texas. An exciting lady came and said – Excuuuuse me, are you JEEEEWISH!?! (staring carefully at my kippah to see whether I have horns), are you flying to Israel!? (despite the westerly flight)
PS. I personally do not recalling witnessing a case of such anti-Jewish attack in USA, not saying they do not happen. I saw them either in other countries or here by people from other countries. For example, my PhD advisor made a shiduch for me to a big German company for a small project. We met Dec 23 without much chemistry and they called me December 26 asking “how was your holiday” with some stress in these words. I replied “as usual”, the project did not go forward and the (middle eastern, liberal) professor could not figure out why.
If both sides want to argue with facts, you can go look at yutorah site and listen to numerous divrei torah there and form your opinion. Do we have a similar collection of other makomos Torah? In older times, there were lots of tape collections at the local kollel – R Avigdor Miller, R Berl Wein, more. I now see some occasional recordings but not systematic learning. Can someone recommend a place?
charlie, ten years is many days
Wth time getting hectic, esp last 2 years and more merger between home and work, I find reading a lot hits on the the faculties I am already using a lot. I am more and more switching to true “oral Torah” – zoom classes, recordings. This partially compensates for less in-person Torah and I also find speakers being more informal in speeches and less guarded than in writing. Maybe this explains why Talmud developed orally ,,,
CTLawyer is doing exactly the right thing. The biggest objection to Yidden going into professions is that the more you work, the more you ear. The more you earn, the more you work to earn more. Ctlawyer follows Chofetz Chaim and others – working enough to earn a living and then learning.
R Leibowitz says one student asked whether it is a good idea to work until you are 40, earn a lot of money, and then learn full time … His answer is, of course, no.
Lostpark, rather than asking CTLawyer to work and give his money to others, a true aspiring Talmid Chacham should ask him to teach him his middos and replicate his successful path.
Phil, a couple of clarification:
Linkedin is generally written by the person himself. Sometimes, people abandon the page and do not update it. Malone updated his page and lists lots of small jobs. It seems to be him and not another Bob as bios match. Why would he skip his best achievements, while looking for the new gig?
Linkedin also has reporting by people who worked with him. Wikipedia is a great source for general info, but not on controversial topics. It could have been written by you or me.Rav Chaim – there were multiple reports on YWN, including that Rav had a delegation of medics whom he was asking questions before announcing the psak. I am sure there are lots of people
here who are close enough to verify. Anyone? That you are chasidishe makes me feel better, as I was concerned how yeshivish/livish people come to such conclusion given the psak and sevorah. I am not familiar with chassidishe daas Toirah here – could you enlighten us please?Did not know about noses … I was wondering whether it is my fault that I notice that Jewish men have “Jewish” noses and women do not … A simpler case is braces – many girls seem to be doing that. Is this also negating what Hashem gave you? One could say that if “everyone” is doing that, then one who does not is at a disadvantage. Although, there will be always someone special looking for a genuine item!
Avira, where did she say “BT” background, she said “MO” background. “You have a right to your opinions, but not to your own facts”. Especially, Sephardim (as you are saying) do not have same prejudices as you do.
Serious question – what should be the shidduch. Historically, it used to be complimentary – chacham with ashir. Nowadays, the concept seems to be “same background” – “men and women are different enough”, probably due to divergence of communities. So, should a lawyer marry a lawyer – and then see each other and kids on Shabbat?
Gadol, Bava Basra first chapter goes trough all kind of scenarios.
basic rule – 2 neighbors need a wall and one can force the other to share the cost. P. 6 discusses one yard above the other. I’ll let more knowledgeable people pasken on halakha l’maaseh. In addition to stam obligations, there are also cases of hasidut and other considerations
There are several shocking stories:
A hasid that has Eliyahu coming to him, then he built a gatehouse (and stop hearing poor) and Eliahu stopped coming. My q: surely he did teshuva and took gatehouse off? and Eliahu did not return? sad…A major amorah Ravina forces a poor nebach via a trick (sending goats) to pay for the part of the fence between them. He is reprimanded, but still shocking.
Rav Yehudah’s student who refuses to admit he learned Torah to get food during famine.
Phil > I was simply pointing out that it’s hypocritical of him to say that when he does the same.
I went back to see maybe my posts indeed lack references, here is who I quoted just in this thread:
Karl Popper
Biontech CEO
Lancet article from Britain talks about this: Reinfection with new variants of SARS-CoV-2 after natural infection, Dec 2021
Malone’s Linkedin
Lower Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Viral Shedding Following Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination Among Healthcare Workers in Los Angeles, California
Paul C Adamson November 2021,
Scott Atlas
Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et alVaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31;
Effectiveness of mRNA and ChAdOx1 COVID-19 vaccines against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe outcomes with variants of concern in Ontario
Rav ChaimHealth, these medicines are early interventions and cheap, right? Why does the patient need hospital permission? I understand that there could be a freak case of someone who has no relative to help and isolated, but that would not be a typical patient.
DY > He was davening. I guess you think that’s inappropriate if it’s not outdoors??
?! Look up my posts above and review references therein of multiple gedolim pointing various nekudos what can be inappropriate, but you seem to be more interested in a hypothetical crazt flight attendant rather than in typical cases. If you do want to bring Covid into the picture, I have no problem with him davening, in fact, it becomes a medauraita rather than mid Rabonan! We would also need to indeed see why he is on the plane. If there is a mitzva involved, fine. But if he is on the way to a non-essential trip, then davening may be a sheretz b’yado.
Charlie > he paskened differently to different people in different circumstances
Indeed, but I witnessed that students from “MO” schools often do not know that. I may have told this story before, this was in response to a Rav saying that he gives different advise to the same question – can I attend class on comparative religions. “Kids” were shocked.
But maybe also, R Soloveichik addressed a much wider range of people, so his advise may be of a larger range. Rambam also speaks seemingly in a different voice (and language).
charlie > Is it surprising that a thread entitled “Denigrating Gadolim” contains many comments denigrating gadolim
this is a dilemma raised by Chafetz Chaim – not to praise people who are not universally accepted as tzadikim because you are inevitably causing someone to say – let me tell you, he is not such a great tzadik! I wish we could discuss achievements and opinions of Talmidei Chachamim in order to bring us to their level rather than other way around.
> rebbe akiva was against the death penalty
I understand that he, and R Tarfon, want to minimize it. True, Gemora brings technical examples where these 2 will inquire one way, and Rabonim differently, but it seems to me that Mishna clearly talks about disagreement about social policies. Their statement is between (1) one that executes once in 70 years is excessive and (2) R Shimon’s retort that their liberalism will lead to more murders. I think you can reconcile technical and social approaches saying that RR Akiva & Tarfon would go to great length to find such arguments and others will simply not.
I don’t think it is a controversial idea that Rabbis were guided by social motives. I am not sure why you are triggered here. Maybe you see me as an advocate for some liberal anti-death-penalty thing? I am not, and I don’t think I learned Makkos (or anything else) with someone who is, or at least obsessed about it. Is it an “MO” thing in your circles?
I was arguing against common occurrence of such cases and the perception that people have. If you want to answer Avram’s question literally – this guy is a tzadik and there is nothing that will happen. The attendant is requesting him “to answer” rather than “to sit” or “to stop”. I don’t think police is going to arrest him for that and if it does, it will be a fun legal case.
He probably meant Normandy.
Gadol, to be fair to Scalia, idea of originalism is of strict interpretation of written law based on narrow role of Supremes in American Republic. Population is free to make new laws, make Constitutional amendments disregarding Scalia’s opinion. He is simply against unelected judges making those non-democratic decisions. Things are harder to change in the Torah, as voting has only limited role (it does have some veto power: gezerot midrabanan were given a year to see of people accept them, and rescinded if not, like shemen goyim)
Still, people like R Akiva were ready to be activist judges, claiming (in theory) that he will find defense against any capital punishment.
> which of the two is the better shot.
Diversify! by the data reviewed by FDA advisors, J&J and then mRNA produces as much antibodies as third mRNA booster. Does not seem to work this way in opposite direction though.
Avram, got it. Paraphrasing: better to be chewing and be thought a fool than empty your mouth and remove the doubt.
Health > So why did these people take these hospitals to court?
Why doesn’t the hospital just give in?Could you clarify – is this your observation that all or majority of hospitals prevent patients from taking this medicine, or you are simply quoting a news article that this happened somewhere?
> The fact that AAQ can’t answer Avram’s question in a direct manner
I am saying that if there is a trace of inappropriate behavior in the man, that he is doing some aveira, however slight. Even if he is in a window seat.
If you are suggesting a Zeresh character that attacks a totally innocent man because he is Jewish, then it is kiddush Hashem as is halakha when we are prosecuted as Jews. If she is simply a deranged person, then a kiddush Hashem and chesed would be to make her calm down by sitting down. Again, this presumes I understood the halakha properly that it is ok/desirable to sit down. That is why I brought those quotes. Let me know if you read this differently.
> two students can cite him as supporting completely polar opposite positions.
Maybe because he was not afaird of addressing controversial topics and also taught students to be thinkers? (yes, there is a risk in that, but also a reward)
> people don’t even know who these giants were
I am guessing people mold an image of gedolim in their own (limited) image. We often do not have facts readily available. Unless you are a close student, or a family member of a close students, we rely on written sources that are often hagiographies, omitting controversial issues and hard decisions. Most of character-clarifying details I find (and quote here sometimes) come from reading sources, where someone mentions details while discussing something else.
> simply being willing to defend the Jewish state is grounds for being considered a member
I am not saying it is sufficient, I am saying it can be a factor. One issue for giyur is sincerity of the convert. Similarly to Shlomo’s times, one might say that if emigration from Russia to Israel would be conditioned on a conversion, we could suspect insincerity despite all other factors. I understand it is not a condition, as people immigrate together with their Jewish relatives. Still, a conversion would make life easier as you are saying – marriage, work, etc and makes a convert suspect. I thought the reference was to military giyurim and I counted this as a possible indication of sincere attachment to Am and Eretz Israel – presuming the person is not serving in combat role, and not in the office.
Such factors play role some times. I read that early Soviet dissidents were often married to non Jews. Someone did giyur to some of them while their husbands were in prison based mostly on their devotion and risk. These were more dramatic circumstances, of course.
More generally, quoting my F-I-L, in mixed marriages, it is a Jewish side that is doing the aveirah, while the non-Jewish one is a tzadik(es) – getting disapprovals from her society for marrying a Jew. In the case of anti-semitic Russian society, it is even more true.
KGN, There are Arab Israelis if you are not aware, in addition to Arab non-citizens.
UJM, are you referring to the Army giyur? I am not familiar with the process and what kulos they are doing there, but there could be a good argument that if someone is ready to risk his life for Jewish people, it gives the person some tzad shus when we are judging their sincerity. I guess the question is – how much they volunteer. Was this their only one way ticket out of Ukraine to the West and they are stuck in Israel because of that, ir did they show volunteer preference for Israel v. some other livable places?
Precise question – kidush or hillul Hashem? You start first with basic halakha – I quoted some above.
My vastly incomplete understanding so far is that the person was not right starting davening standing and also should (rather than can) sit down when told. Again, I did not expect the latter part and not completely sure I am reading this correctly. I would appreciate other opinions.But, presuming the person was supposed halakhically to sit down and did not, this does not seem to be a kiddush Hashem if it is a violation of ratzon Hashem (aka halakha). It is hilluel Hashem? R Lebowitz who discusses a similar episode in newspapers, even quoting some bochrim who explain that “this was the right thing to do” milder as “not the best moment for the Jewish people” or something like that.
If, on the other hand, he was not supposed to interrupt shmone esre, as most of us commonly assume, then it can’t be Hillul Hashem in that action.
If he could have foreseen the problem, then it is clear from sources above that it is halakhically incorrect and possibly hillul Hashem – caused not by continue standing, but by starting standing. So, interesting nekuda here, that he was an over even before flight attendant came by, so consider her coming as a punishment for the previous aveirah.
In a gray area, where he considered everything and then a wild flight attendant appeared out of nowhere, he may not be over.
Now, an interesting inverted question – if he were to sit down (presuming it is halahkically correct): would that quiet action be considered Kidush Hashem? Or if he would be sitting whole shemone esre?
You can say – how is this kiddush Hashem when it is not in anyone’s face?! (and it is not so inspiring to do a thing that nobody notices anyway, despite Gemorahs saying opposite, like grandson of Choney Hameagel in Tannis who hides from sheluchim his going to daven for rain, pretending that the cloud came by itself)
Possible answer – someone sees other Jews doing it wrong and then sees this guy doing it right and concludes that this is a real Jews following real Torah and now he praises Hashem.
> Of course! Those are the best Shadchanim.
ok, so it is not just my family’s minhag. I drove to meet my future wife only so that these good friends of mine stop hacken my tchainik with suggestions of even longer travel.
ujm, – in the opposite order, though! That is Gadol’s obligation to not see me precedes my obligation to protect myself. If he fails in his obligation, I then have to protect myself and sue him to get my money back. Right?
Gadol, it was tongue in cheek somewhat, as we refer here to the “field”. Field differs from the yard, I recall, as it is where someone business (literally) grows, so it is subject to “ayn hara”. I don’t know whether this applies to profits from selling stadium seats.
as to the stam wall between 2 properties, things are opposite to what you are saying: if you live above/opposite me, I can force YOU to build a wall to not look at me.
your Rav seem to be concerned with the real issue here – not hezek reya, but benefiting for free from viewing the game. At Chafetz Chaim level who would tear a stamp when sending a letter outside of official mail, he should pay for whatever he would otherwise spent on tickets. If I were there, I would certainly be allowed to watch – as I don’t care at all and the stadium owner is not losing money by me watching it. More likely, I’ll force him to put the wall back to prevent noise and hezek reya from stadium into my home.
> you learn/don’t learn Daf Yomi
you are allowed to not admit that you did not learn something, so you should not be bothered by that> Are/Are Not a Ba’al Teshuva
And if not, “why not”? (Gerer Rebbe)It seems to me from all this poskim that the answer to Avrum’s question is –
1) l’hathila, do not stand up unless it is 100% not bothering anyone and not diverting your attention
2) b’dieved, sit down seems like in the middle of shmone esre. I am not comfortable with this answer, frankly. R Lebowitz’s seems like the most expansive discussion, maybe listening to the original and looking up all his sources will help clarify
3) l’humra from star-k – get yourself a more expensive flight seem to be a “first world answer” and contradict Gemora that lets one daven on a donkey lest one prolongs the trip, although maybe prolonging the trip is asur from sakonah (more time on the road, miss caravan, travel at night) and thus may not apply.