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Health,
everyone asked for several weeks of tests. Biontech CEO said today that he presumes that T-cell protection against severe disease will not decrease, while lower level of antibodies protecting from initial infection may decrease.>> Should I say something?
Not during tefilah, however short it is! From COVID perspective, if you do not bother opening windows, you should daven even faster.
A Rav who happened to be stuck in a shul like that for a year, said that his solution was to come 30 minutes earlier and daven his normal speed. If other people join you, the problem will be fully solved.
The problem of speed davening, I think, is solely of confusing the tzibur. Hashem obviously understands you at any speed. For a humble example, I can (was able to) play chess 2 minutes against 5 minutes for a random chess-player of same average skill. I never measured, but I presume I can out-daven him too. Would my tefilah (or game) benefit from full 5 minute v. 2? Of course, they would. But you can’t say the shorter one is missing. For the tzibur, I can learn while the slow minyan is still davening. But other way around does not work.
publish several scientific or even popular articles before getting married and it will be a good excuse to keep the last name.
HaLeivi, what is this “on top”, “in parallel”. If someone uses “secular knowledge” to steal, to waste time, to offend people – then this is against Torah. If someone uses it to earn a living, to understand how Hashem’s world works, how to make life better for people – it is at basic level does not contradict Torah. (I am excluding cases like hiding Sefer Refuah because people did not deserve it).
Gemorah is full of not just medical but technical information about animals, farming, anything else in life. No Amorah would sow in the wrong season expecting Hashem to fix it. So, why would you do anything in our time without having all required knowledge.
Again, at the times of haskala things were different. Going to a university meant abandoning Torah.. It is not so in our days.
Gadol, MB suggests that sweet wine is exempt from drinking in two gulps. Given popularity of bad sweet wines in US, maybe this is a heter used. So, lifnei ever – you give sweet wine to people without manners.
Historically, NY Jews were drinking NY wine and only sweet stuff grows in upstate NY. Then, RebE and the rest of the kahal acquired taste for this sxweet stuff.
St some point NY wine was monopolized by Manischewitz sweet and was subject to Rabbinical boycotts – that wa the appropriate time to use chalah in the evening and mashke in the morning.
Avira > from a big lerusah
There is something here, yes, but there should be some limits. Whole sugya in Beitza revolves around eating raw meat on Yom Tov. Nobody is suggesting that yom tov seuda overrrides derech eretz min haTorah.
googling related varying manners: not talking during the meal – prohibited by Taanis 5b, Orach Chayim 170:1 but Prisha says this is due to old custom of eating reclined
Philosopher Karl Popper defines what a theory is and what is just babbe-maise (he is not using the latter term): could you suggest a potential fact that will overturn the theory? for example, a theory that vaccine is effective can be tested by a carefully constructed double-blinded test.
In case of phils writing above, he seems to reject any proposed proof or any widely proposed remedy as a conspiracy and, in turn, accepts anything that is not accepted widely as vadai remedy. I can’t come up with any potential piece of information that phil will not reject on these grounds.
Many over-simplify the situation. I see only one simple rule – there are no general rules. sometimes Jews wear same as others (Polish medieval garb, Sephardim in Arab countries), maybe excluding red color and other inappropriate things (Gemora times, later Polish time Vaad forbidding too much jewelry), sometimes Jews insisting on a different dress, sometimes non-Jews forcing Jews to wear different dress, or sometimes same dress. All, mostly depending on relationships to the outside world and mutual attitudes.
> purported intent of the travel ban was pikuach nefesh
Dutch just warehoused two planes from SA. 60 out of 600 people were infected. 13 with new variant.
There is a chain of command during emergency. There is no expectation that every case will be adjudicated to the full degree of lomdus.
> Judaism IS based on mesorah.
It is, and sometimes we do not have mesorah and we need to figure it out and create a new mesorah. This is either because information was lost (we discussed this before – Maharal about Bavli method of reconstructing missed information) and sometimes we have new circumstances (Churban, Modernity) and we can apply those Bavli methods (that include sevorah) to new circumstances.
Corollary: when we see people who are not good at applying sevorah to simple rational life problems, these people can not be counted among those who mastered Bavli.
> Techum, hotzaah, muktza.
They are not doing anything and not benefitting from any of these. All they did was – got back into the plane upon a lawful government order. They do not care whether the plane will stand on tarmac for a day or fly over the whole world. So, there is surely no issur mdeuraita. And concern for the health of other Jews should surely overrride any other concerns they have.
Vhere, Sh’A O’Ch 170:8, Ashkenazim allow for the cup size.
But a fair point: Beitza 25 proves a general klal on derech eretz min haTorah – I don’t think anyone argues on that. Pratim are obviously culture-dependent (and some commentaries say – upon health and size of the person). We don’t leave food on a side of a plate for the waiter to eat, and (in America) are not careful about using appropriate utensils as Victorians did. So, you will have to ask your local Rav.
What I do not understand – do we judge by general culture of the times? by the observant community? your own corner? Does it depend who of the above will see you?
HaLeivi > value secular study for its own sake
This was very vague, I am not sure what this even means. When I eat donuts, do I value them for their own sake or because I am hungry, or doing it l’shem?! Is it about parents who teach kids engineering to earn an honest living? Is it about learning science to marvel as Hashem’s world (R Twersky specifically recommends physiology with a caveat – can be done after yeshiva hours at hime)?
HaLeivi > you are going to prove something from what you made up?
this is from traditional sources, the source I can’t recall or look up right this second
> ignores every single one of Avira’s points
I was addressing the one about traditional learning lifestyle and those who interact with the world. Yaakov goes to Lavan upon the command of both of his parents (each with his own shitah – away from Esav or to get married, but they both think he can make it in a goyishe world) and learns from Ever practical halochos.
Avira,
> how a “reader” can see that the rishonim didn’t have a mesorah, because I’m not a readerthe joke is that academics spend a semester on the hakdomos, while learners skip it and go straight for lomdus. There is a good value for meta-learning – what is motivation, what is general approach or knowledge of the author. When you learn from someone in person (or on zoom :), you know the character of the speaker and it helps understanding what he is saying.
> academic mentality would not see anything wrong with annuling yom tov sheni,
I am not advocating academic paskening at all, but this is a bad example, as it is simple Gemorah that you need a better beis din to annul YT2. So, someone advocating such is definitely a ball gaavah as you are saying!Side note: if we want to have such a sanhedrin, we would definitely need to bring together people with different opinions and let them argue with each other directly rather than through humble proxies like us.
> This is why steinsaltz, who had no formal education, is so off base with his pshatim
In general, R Steinsaltz had yeshiva-educated people working for him. I have no insights on the Gemora editing process per se, but I think there are names listed, I did not open it for a long time. I read R Feldman’s critique of early volumes, I presume it is valid as I do not know better, although there was a response. Even with that, it opened Gemora for a lot of Israelis. I use Artscroll and it also has a lot of problems that can be seen with a naked eye, usually trying to smooth the text and avoid thinking outside the box. No translation is perfect.
phil, Gemora megilla explains the great reward of quoting by name. First, when you listen to someone about important topic, you should be making notes: name, date, info and source. If the person does not provide source, ask what the source is.
Second, do not search google directly, search specialized archives that return results by keyword and not by popularity. Try medline, pubmed, researchgate, etc. There are also archives of pre-prints if you are concerned that not all information is published. Those preprints often have comments attached. It is OK if you disagree with something that is published, but at least you’ll have an idea what you are disagreeing and why. When quoting it here, have a first author, title, date of the publication and then we can look at it also.
phil > there have been no peer reviewed, long-term studies on the negative side effects of the covid-19 “vaccine
and no peer reviewed studies on long term covid disease. Which one is more dangerous?
you always sound like you are quoting a website, or at best a popular journal article. You will find more response if you quote a scientific article you actually read through and found information there.
> Did he quaff the entire contents in one gulp?!?
this is against halakha even on wine. Beitza ~ 25, not one, not three, two.
> cynicism is inevitable.
any field is like that. Lawyers like challenging cases, doctors challenging operations, policemen – pursuing gruesome murderers, rebbes – complicated tosafos. all sometimes forget about human lives and tragedies involved.
On one hand, sometimes one needs to separate from emotions – otherwise a surgeon will not be able to stick a knife into another person. On another, we all need to remember who is in front of us.
Presumably Rebbe used his students to help in writing, same as Chafetz Chaim for Mishna Berurah. As a reference. Rabban Gamliel had 1000 people learning Torah ands 1000 Science in his household.
References to forgetting or being unsure is a good hint what was unwritten. In a recent daf, R Akiva knew of a machlokes between b’Hillel and b’Shammai but was not sure who is which side. edited
While Avraham was teaching, Shem and Ever had their own yeshiva where Yaakov goes to learn how to live and deal with Lavan. Both types of learning are legitimate.
Avira, you have an admirable nack for putting everything in one sentence: science education “by itself” and feminism, a science theory of evolution and gender theory. Some of these are a matter of opinion and others are clearly beyond Jewish norms, of either halakha or hashkofa. At least, you could order or group them. Otherwise, you create an impression that everyone who disagrees with you in slightest is an apikoires.
Same goes for your parsing of a teshuva that at it’s face allows risking soldier life defending Israel. I think it would be fair to say that Melech Dovid paskened the same and this is not a modernishe reading of the Nach.
Can I come up with a new one? Greek philosophers defined the world built out of 4 components. So, we doubled that! Either to point to Olam Habo (although not clear why it will be divisible) or just to raise the stakes!
Seriously, note the difference between Purim, and earlier malchuyot, and Chanuka: in Purim, we deal with a drunk Emperor who changes his wish every day. In Chanuka, we are dealing with _laws_ that prohibit things, a way more advanced civilization.
Why are we increasing candles? One big point of contention between Greeks and Jews is of statics v. dynamics. Greeks observe the world and accept it as is. Jews see history as a way forward and up, starting with sulam Yaakov and “chachamim yodea eitim” in Megilla. Jewish idea prevails in this debate, with Christianity, being a mixture of Greek and Jewish thought, accepting the history progress view, and so does modernity, including Marxism and all other isms that at least talk about improving human condition in some way.
So, increasing candles shows that we are always aiming higher.
philosopher, you need to switch off your partisan information sources (that you did not tell what they are) and try reading scientific literature directly. It will take you some time to learn the lingo but it will benefit you greatly. You’ll be able to come up with your own ideas. Scientists may have biases and preferences for certain approaches, but a lot of what is happening is factual: results of experiments and observations. This is done by a multitude of authors in different countries, companies, universities. They are not in secret communications with each other before putting out their pre-prints.
AJ > What your describing is the kashrus industry in the US.
the difference is that, as of now, most Israelis are eating kosher. In US, it is a volunteer system that serves only those who care. I am not an expert to what degree Rabanut can be weakened to still serve the population with kosher food.
Avira > some are just shy of the yeshiva world
There are 2 aspects here:
1) philosophy of the movement – here the hierarchy is contested. There is a lovely exploration of decision space. Frankly, we did not yet have a proof that any of the approaches to modernity work: should we totally separate from humanity, should we incorporate capabilities developed by it? what is dangerous? what is useful? we have plenty of opinions, but I don’t think it is settled. Moses Mendelsohn tried one risky approach – and it failed clearly within a generation. Was everything done by his opponents correct? No, otherwise we would not have so many Jews lost to haskalah, it is not just fault of assimilators, it is as well fault of those who led communities. We can’t look down at those generations, of course. They were confronted with a tremendous challenge that we still did not fully understand. Compare this with post-churban-sheni period: R Yohanan Ben Zakkai forcing some of the changes, Rabban Gamliel talking to people who refused to eat meat, etc. There were multiple thoughts initially.2) community level – there is no question that yeshiva community has more people learning Torah than others. Are they doing it to the right credit (see Israel where people stay “in learning” to not go to the Army), what is the quality of learning, is the approach sustainable – are we trying to follow Rashbi “the way that many tried and failed” – these questions are not answered yet. Many discussions here mention “emergency measures” to allow current social norms. I hope we will settle at some point into non-emergency where learning will be integrated in the normal lifestyle.
RebE > bombed the tracks to Auschwitz.
I am aware of this claim, but not 100% sure it is not just for public consumption.
Railroad tracks were routine bombed by all sides in WW2. And routinely repaired. There was no precision targeting, lots of bombs need to be sent to get something like that. Military targets were a priority. Etc.
Gadol, you may be right re: visible litigating positions. These people got to be sharp. There are millions of others, including decision-makers, who are not. I rarely see any of them going to work for private businesses in a significant capacity, except when their connections are valued, which is bodering on corruption. There were actually several corruption cases with government guys starting negotiating for a position at private company while still in service, instead of just winking.
Gadol > Their most recent study showed that federal employees are underpaid by as much as 22-35 percent
I may sound like a virus denier here, but I am layering personal experience over the statistics. A lot of those employees are dead weight. They request you to send some nonsense paperwork and then have multiple meetings going over that. They have no insight of the cost that their work to the government directly or to the private sector they are supervising. It is a logical market consequence of lack of accountability. Just compare Amazon prime with proverbial DMV or IRS.
You look at it philosophically, as part of the federal process that is intended to be inefficient but rule-based non-partisan harmless process. Except that it became too powerful and possibly captured partisan from the time of FDR. Simple reason – progressive-minded people are motivated to go work for the powerful government, often with the zeal of Trotsky.
Gadol, not to disparage some of those yidden, and not to deny some brilliant people in the government, but, as a group, people around DC are not sacrificing much. Unfortunately, several richest zip codes are now around DC and not in productive industries. Many people who work for the government would earn considerably less in private sector.
You are right, we should have sent them to Soviets, let them have those missiles. You sound more and more like a leftwinger.
> Is Delta inherently more lethal,
it is not, and so from preliminary observation is th new omicron.
Trivia question: WHY WHO SKIPPED XI? Because she is a “common name”. This is after they had to invent the whole letter system to avoid using “wuhan virus”. Like the Arnevet that was mis-translated in septuaginta not to offend Ptolemian queen.> We also find that the parents want college…sometimes more than the bochurim.
I heard a YU Rebbe pushing (gently) against parents – would it hurt if he’ll become a lawyer a couple of years later? How about we have a Masters program where you can learn, but so that law/med school does not question what you were doing for these two years … This attitude towards parents might have made sense early on – but by now those parents are graduates of the same institutions, so they know well what the options for kids are.
> Bread salt and water isn’t enough you say?
al pi same Rambam, a Talmid Chacham has to be dressed decently by the standards of the time. This would presume at least dry cleaning, washing machine, a working car, maybe a home with wooden floor. You also supposed to teach a kid a profession so that he will not be a bandit, so either he needs to work with his hands, and if can’t, with his head, thus college.
> Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.
Drisha defines a working person as someone who only learns 3 hours, and thus should not learn Gemora, just halocha. I guess things were harder for Ashkenazim than for Sephardim during Rambam’s times…
> still supports the idea of having a democracy?
you dare to use this Greek word on the heilecke night of Hanukkah?!
A related question is – what is the source of the brocha that Ashkenazim got to grow like fish? Besides Torah scholarship, a possible answer is – beans. New agricultural methods introduced in Northern Europe in middle ages involved cross-growing beans and grain. Population was usually limited by amount of available protein that, in turn, was limited by amount of livestock that was limited by multiple factors – amount of grain, fields, labor … Beans introduced additional protein that lead to growth of population in Northern Europe comparative to Mediterranean. It also lead us to a kitniyos issue on Pesach, but it seems to be a small price to pay.
ujm,
according to papers, the exemption age was just lowered from 24 to 21, will go up to 22 but will allow vocational training or national service after 21. I am sure I am mixing up something here, hope someone knows better. I would think that someone who was learning full time from age 4 to 21, or 24, would have enough skills to quickly learn a profession. When internet was starting, I had a chance to help several T’Ch and professors to get to the speed with the Net, and those with good Gemora education were much faster.Avira, your bag of grievances varies a lot from objective breaches of halakha to your, or your school, opinions. People who respect State of Israel, look for causes of Holocaust, teach Gemorah to ladies have significant names and arguments behind them. You and I may agree or disagree with that, and it can sometimes have undesirable effects on some people, but that does not take them into category where you can disparage them lightly. If a (great?)grandaughter of R’ Moshe Feinstein is learning Gemora, then you are saying that R Moshe did not educate his daughter well and did not select an appropriate S-I-L. If R’ Moshe did his best but you would blame later YU influence, then R’ Moshe would not remain friends with his cousin R Soloveichik who let all of that happen.
phil > DNA testing there’s a seperate catogory for Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
No, there is a separate category for Ashkenazim who came from a small number of medieval ancestors. The rest (loosely called Sepahardim) represent a wider DNA of all Jews from previous history, that is they consist of a much large set of groups both by DNA, and by minhagim and history. The “recent” (last 500-1000 years) growth of Ashkenazim obscures that.
> Is the third type people who can’t count?
I am glad someone counts here! 3rd type is maybe those who never worked?
A lot to be said for “being happy by his lot” – but it is made easier by having a bigger lot!
If you are spending time working – why not both make your work more productive to the community and world at large and why not get compensated for it?
for example – in theory – someone earning $200/hour could work for 10 hours a week and live at the level of someone earning $40/hour working 50 hours a week, and have time for family, learning, volunteering, vacations. It is rarely happening: the $200/hour guy works 50 to 80 hours anyway, but at least he has a choice.
in practice, I see more often people in teaching being concerned about money than people in professions who focus on learning in those hours they have for it. Not a universal rule, of course.
Also, an overlooked part: “parnasa” is often associated with “wasting” time earning a living to have a satisfying life after that. We live in a place where we are lucky to be able to choose what you do. Why not choose something that you enjoy doing and what is good for the community/world. Torah teaching is an obvious one, but medical, research, police, army, plumbing all qualify, especially combined with study and execution of all halakhic issues involved in each of these.
ujm, please clarify what this law says. Are you saying that if someone leaves a yeshiva and works, he then he becomes eligible for the army? till what age?
phil > “Trauma” is the code word
I agree that words could have been used better. Still, several last centuries – haskala, WW1, communism, nazis, transplant to US and Israel – would probably break any other community other than us, tough Ashkenazim, already prepared by crusades, ghettos, hmelnitsky, cantons, pogroms … But any survival is accompanied by PTSD, where T stands for Trauma and we would be better off understanding this experience.
> I would not take “toichacha” from Sephardic
“the prisoner cannot free himself” re:R Yohanan pulling a colleague out of sickness but not himself.
People from outside can sometimes help us see what we are not seeing.> , in particular Ashkenazim, are so varied, it is stupid to lump everyone into one group
yes, but we all are amazingly similar genetically (coming from ~ 100 men in middle ages), and are united by our love of fighting words, as we are amply demonstrating here.
DY > There no ona’ah on real estate, and that’s what a room rental is.
Is this so? I did not think of catering as RE transaction? Is the hall the ikar or is the food and service?
You may be right as the bottleneck allowing a fee is due to RE. Thanks for the correction.As Gadol mentions this could be up to community beis din/Rov to limit such fees. Maybe allow fee for “Chanuka parties” per se, but not for the brisim and bar mitzvas
N0, To your point, maybe mutations are the reason for recent second rounds of Covid? Possibly in some communities with low vaccinations and high number of kids in unprotected schools, virus is indeed endemic (circulating continuously) and hits again with mutations?
I also have to admit that I was wrong thinking that people who are immune to logical arguments will get it when it hits close (R Avigdor Miller explains that we are to learn a lesson from a disaster somewhere in Far East, if not, it will hit again closer at home, and the worst is getting “educated” by being hit yourself). But I digress from the anecdotal data point: several close families I know had Covid recently. In one, an only unvaxed person spent several weeks sufffering, the rest not a big problem. In another – (reluctantly) vaxxed adults did not even know they had it until the kid was sick and got tested. Now that adult who had no symptoms said “What did that vaccine do? I got it anyway”. I can only attribute this to a “long covid fog”.
n0 > immunity has to hold against viral mutations.
you are right, but I am presuming that further infections by mutations will be increasingly milder and that is what “endemic” means. Also, there will be less mutations with more immunity. With the world now 55% vaccinated, the cup is half-full, not half-empty.
Inequality coefficient GINO for Israel 39 is indeed higher among peer developed countries: a little lower than USA (41) and above UK, Australia, Spain,Italy (35-36) and more socialist OECD countries (France, Germany 32 Canada 33 Poland Sweden 30 Norway 26). US and Israel are the only two decent countries with Gino that high, the rest are communists and other dictatorships.
While inequality is a universal human condition (even in socialist countries where most are equally poor, but some “are more equal”), there is no doubt that many Jewish poor are there for self-imposed reasons. As ujm says, many are happy this way, but many are not – for example, parents selected this way and kids are less interested.
RebE, Nittel Nacht seems to be referenced in writing from 17th century, so we do not have a tradition of following it by Julian calendar. Maybe countries that accepted Gregorian calendar later could have this tradition: British/Russian/Ottoman empires, some Swiss, Saudi Arabia ..