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As an illustration, how great government helps people – Jeff Bezos is donating $130 MLN dollars to help poor communities write GRANT APPLICATIONS so that they have a chance to receive money allocated by Congress in recent giveaways. They do not stand a chance of getting the money without the assistance. That is, in addition to millions of dollars we pay to support the gov employees, we now need $130 mln dollars to get that money back from them.
>> “The best economy is capitalism, free and mostly unfettered and ulittered with corruption from government handouts.”
> Our entire street and highway system was built by the government.
And we have government running the Navy also. There is no contradiction. Whatever is impossible to be done through market means, is done by the government. And, in US, should be done by appropriate government: your street should be built by the town and highway by the state.
The only reason we have so much enmity in federal, especially Presidential, elections, is the multitude of issues that the President is responsible for. Medicine, tax credits, building roads – all of these should be done by states, and everyone can choose a state to live in at minimal cost. Presidential debates should be limited to foreign affairs and defense budget. Boring.
ujm, good question here. According to google – steel, heavy industry, coal, wheat. Maybe they have vodka instead of Stoli? Boycott NordStream 2 for one that will deprive them from Russian transit fees and allow Russians to attack without hurting their gas customers in Western Europe.
charlie > The problem is that the mainstream center-left and the mainstream center-right failed here.
By GDP numbers, Chile outperformed other South American companies on the strength of the market economy created by Pinochet’s economic team – consistenly with different center parties. They may have people who need a better social net, but their counterparts have much more people who are caught in that net of poverty. Note that most of countries that fell under socialist dictatorships – stay there for decades with no end, not like post-Pinochet.
2scents> Powerlines outside of major cities are fragile.”
Solution a. Solar panels with battery packs.
Solution b. Gas powered backup generator.So, more money spent .. I have no problem with private companies trying to build something new and sell it. Still, most of it comes out of huge gov subsidies and lots of gov activities going to conferences, suppressing oil & gas, etc. President, especially this one, has that many hours he is awake. He spends this time on climate change and forgets to save our Afghani partners. Maybe if he would listen to a couple of more alternative intel briefs, he would save some people.
Even privately – instead of buying a Tesla, you could have hired a private tutor for your kids, or not worked that time and learnt.
We just discussed – you do not return lost money to a non-Jewish person, at least in the case where non-Jews are abusive of us. This does not mean you should steal from him, you should just not do him a favor that strengthens him. In the modern world, we are free to do business with whomever we want and patronizing someone’s business is doing them a favor as this strengthen him – not just by the profit he is earning, but he can pay his own workers, and develop stronger industries.
We did not lose much from boycotting Cuba, there are other places where you can travel. We should not do business with other dictators also. Instead, buy from countries that are standing up to them – Israel, of course, Taiwan, Ukraine, etc.
RebE > a person is responsible for one’s actions even though its was unintentional.
We hold professionals not accountable for honest mistakes. How many times in her career she got the right weapon out? thousands? how many of those she saved an innocent person’s life somewhere by arresting a criminal? Maybe she was overworked with all the recent chaos and protests and did not realize .. I did not follow the case, but if this is a one-off incident and she did not have other similar cases, this is not fair. How many will now retire in order not to risk their lives for others?
If you are saving people, would it be an issue to shave your beard, even if it gives you an easier fit into the mask? Will then community look down at him or, otherwise, here goes Shmerel who had a beard for 40 years and now had strength to shave it off in order to save those of us who are not careful with lighting candles and using unsafe platas for heilike shabbos?
common > fervor in the way they approach masks etc and have a very nonchalnt take on frumkiet and yiddishkiet.
in case, I am irritating someone’s nostrils, let me clarify unstated: my concern is yiddishkeit. Any unscripted event sent to us by Hashem reveals people’s thinking beyond the formal training they got in school. So, when people start saying: I don’t care about others, let them protect themselves; don’t listen to the psak, the rabbi is senile; this is obviously not yiddishkeit I know. The other part where I probably irritate you is listing cases where I suggest violating usual Jewish conventions: I bring them to point out cases where there is a trade-off with other, neglected, values. This is 1% of cases, I am not going to write here about 99% cases where there is no question. And you would not like to read me talking about me being inspired by natilas yadaim in the morning.
> turning their focus to faster charging rather than extended range.
This is simply a good slogan. Obviously, shorter range means faster charging. If you work from home, you can charge the whole day!
Even if all of this makes sense, we need to know proportions and where to focus. Feds were not able to stockpile covid tests and will provide them in January for the December peak, they are still “discussing” whether to pass military hardware from Afghanistan to Ukraine, inflation is “temporary”, they are asking oil companies to increase production, despite their efforts to make this production lose money. In all of these cases, we see that the government lacks a foresight two months ahead, while they are solving future problems.
charlie > because blackouts only occur about once every 20-25 years in places other than Texas.
that is not true. Powerlines outside of major cities are fragile. I once was in a very-electric house during a major wind event in the winter. There was no electricity, no internet, no stove, and no bathroom until the power was repaired. With the electric car, I would not be able to leave also.
rw > Did all of bnei yisroel throughout those times err
maybe people on purpose did not draw the right menorah to prevent building forbidden replicas?
Ok, Marx, but did Freud do wrong to you? In his book on psychology of humor, half of the jokes he brings are Jewish ones. In many cases, I did not realize they are THAT old.
Beitza tells us that Hashem gave us Torah to train us in derech eretz and limiting ourselves. Otherwise, we are have so much hutzpa (azut) that we would not leave space for other nations to live in.
Obvious corollary is that Jews without Torah would mess up the world … It does not matter whether it is their own fault or their grandparents, as long as they have national azut and lack Torah restraints, this is bound to happen.
Second corollary is that those who learn torah but somehow do not acquire derech eretz are not much better.
RebE > Why isn’t the first pair afraid that a second pair will come
First pair decided to go to court and accuse someone. They have time to case a victim and find an appropriate time where they are not likely to be seen by others. It is like pickpocket, or Putin on the border with Ukraine – they choose where and when. So, having a second pair is not very likely.
Second pair are people who happen to see a specific two people (first pair) at the specific time (of the crime). They were not able to choose a moment and location that will ensure their alibi. All following pairs are the same.
We, and our government, need some humility: they are not able to predict packed ports and that covid tests will be required before people travel, not a month after. At the same time, they are bravely spending their time and attention, and our money, on solving future problems.
RebE > There is a difference between socialism and communism.
says a Hungarian refugee?! This is a line from a communist schoolbook.
ujm, I think my logic would work for more pairs:
the first pair is least reliable, as I described before, because it is easier for them to cheat selecting a target and time. The rest are more reliable than first and all equally reliable to each other, as they all need to testify about given people and time.Let’s for simplicity say value (1) = 1, value (2) and later = 10.
For 2nd pair, easy 10 > 1.
For 3rd pair, their value is 10 + 1 from first pair, 11>10
for 4th pair 10 + 10 (4th, 2nd) > 10 + 1 (3rd, 1st)Yserbius, rules for new variant are unclear. Looking at preventing serious disease, you may be right that high vaccination/previous disease by itself will prevent worst outcomes. Masks will limit transmission. Usefulness of masks may depend on SD and ventilation …
I wonder whether high transmissibility means that those who are generally relaxed should plan for the easiest way to go thru infection: a vaccine in addition to initial dose or previous infection and plan for some exposure under light conditions – so that as they are getting infected, they are not getting a huge dose by sitting in an office for hours with people…
to those with “natural infection”, they should follow recommendations for booster similar to those with vaccination. Antibodies are at about same level 6 months after either event (vaccination higher first, but declining faster)
charlie > other candidate is a supporter of one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th century
I am not following Chile politics closely, but pre-election coverage in US was hilarious – OMG, look at the right-winger, without even mentioning any problems with the opposite side. You are really elevating Pinochet too high. I believe 1-3 thousand of people were killed by his regime. Any of central American revolutions took 10,000s of life in a year, and I think you are forgetting Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Kims, Campuchia were also in 20th century
> once beis din determines that both groups are equally trustworthy the chidush is we beelive the second pair
Maybe a following sevorah: the first pair appeared to testify on their own. They had a chance to fit their testimony to the person and time of their choosing. They had time to consider all circumstances and, thus, it is pretty possible, they had a chance to frame someone. After this event is fixed, now second pair needs to address two specific people at a given time. The time that they have a reason and a possibility to frame them is much lower.
GH> “mask-on/mask-off” comedy under the current rules where you open a bottle of water
I am not defending a specific policy, but the idea is to reduce risk while minimizing inconvenience to the public. Obviously, no free-loving person would sacrifice his lunch to protect some stranger. So, thus the rules. Presuming that 80% of public have masks on 80% of the time, this reduces risk a lot.
See the MI report I mention above comparing school with and without masks. Significant difference even presumably enforcement was not 100% and they also had breakfast, lunch, and recess. Report actually had a group of “partial mask mandate” – and it was much closer to masked than to the no mask.
> If only that were true
Note the word “reasoned”. ;} For example, Health gave me a bunch of interesting websites, I went and read them.
Syag,
an interesting case of mask and public discourse: some articles today quote a michigan study where schools with no rules now have same transmission as schools with rules. Hurrah!Click on the study and you see a very simple timeline: both types of school started at the same rate in august, then masked schools stayed 20-30% below the unmasked and then all schools experienced sharp increase in November becoming equal by thanksgiving and then all falling down together. So, if you care about number of kids who were infected (and transmitted to families, etc) you would understand that total number of sick people is way less in masked case. If you care about making a silly point – you point to the plot and say – see they are now the same.
Same presentation shows 13x higher rate of death for unvaxed v vaxed, standardized by age, and a plot of direct correlation between state cumulative death rate and vaccination rates. None of this is quoted, of course, in those childish articles.
Syag, we had looong discussions here with some of these guys and they all refer to websites, inner knowledge and personal choice. I was asking whether anyone was told this by their regular physician and heard babkes back. I am sure there are some, but they do not add up to the numbers of those who stand by those positions. Our religion makes a stand whether to drink a cup in 1 or 2 or 3 gulps. Surely, we can consider risks to life as religious issue. I am not insisting that my position is right, I am just throwing arguments out there and always happy to hear a reasoned argument back.
Re:omicron. What I read so far: most data so far is on transmission that seems not to be slowed much by JJ/AZ/Chinese/Russian vaccines, only in part by 3rd dose of mRNAs. And seems the same for “natural immunity”.
I first thought that “3rd” means “recent”, but I saw slides comparing 2nd and 3rd on the same day after the dose and difference was large. It is now admitted that having 3-4 weeks between 1st and 2nd doses were not ideal, Brits are now recommending 3 months for kids between vaccines. Maybe this explains decrease after 2nd dose. As to serious cases, everyone seem to hope that all previous exposures help, but the data from the field is not in, it will come in several weeks.
>> “The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. ”
Syag> No kidding. Glad you finally realize it.What I mean that people who protest very basic public health measures, such as masks and vaccines, are behaving childishly.
I have no idea what you mean by “follow their doctors”. 98% of doctors are vaccinated and probably 100% are working in masks. Are you saying that 30% of the population that are not vaccinated or not wearing masks are following recommendation of their actual doctors? This does not sound probable, and I was asking people here and not getting response. Btw, as of today, most of US is under omicron that partially avoids previous immunity both vaccine and disease. Do you expect people who touted their “natural immunity” to change their opinion? I don’t.
Dictators/bullies always ask – what about just giving up this little, and we argue between each other whether give in or not, instead of confronting them. How about we turn the table around and ask those leaders – what do you want: money, women, power? How about we take a mid-size island in a Pacific, put there all Putins, Xis, Kims with their entourage and have live pageants and TV shows with whatever they desire. They can kill their enemies in videogames and win elections on TV. UN in their charter will guarantee their safety and $1 Tln annually for this.
This is useful. Have a list of ten and then you can measure level of paranoia on a scale from 1 to 10:
if you get 9, call 911. if you can get 7, talk to your doctor, 4 – worry, 2 – you are not watching enough TV, 0 – you are a tam/simpleton, check if your wallet is still there. [I am 3].Orange > HEPA filters didn’t change it then and still won’t change it.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe that pre-pandemic filtering was insufficient, it was known that it made infection go around, but nobody cared. As I did not research it in detail, I hesitate to claim it, so consider this an opinion.
> For now, I will wear a mask
As was already mentioned, not clear how masking became a symbol of rebellion. We wear a lot of stuff that restrict our movement – from socks to hats. There are so many serious topics to discuss about Covid: medical, educational, work, helping those who need help in any of those. The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. Sad that the country is holding by this, and even sadder that our community does.
When we try to imagine lifestyles and environment changing over time, we often fail to imagine simple things. Consider, for example, Native Americans who lived a pre-mabul lifestyle and had seemingly no viruses and no immunity to them (leading to a disaster when they encountered those).
Some explain that it is partly due to lack of domesticated animals and, thus, lack of viruses jumping between animals and people. If pre-mabul generations were vegetarians, then the same would apply. I may be taking these midrashim too literally, but it is interesting to see how life conditions can change easily.
common > , the only was to be assured is to buy the seat next to yours.
again, my understanding, they don’t sell empty seats. Maybe I’m wrong. But looking at this Jewishly, our approach is different: if I am bothering you, it is my responsibility to mitigate the damage (Bava Basra, 2 houses at different height, the one higher needs to put the fence). So, a kosher obese person should be buying enough space and a kosher non-masking (oxymoron, IMHO) people should all bunch together in the back of the bus.
ys > “six feet” rule was based on
it is based on physics – propagation of large debris that get out of the mouth/nose. There are tons of simulators and tests for that. This is remarkably same as our traditional four amot! 6ft = 1.8m, 4 0.5m amot = 2m. Europeans are using 2 meters for covid rather than 6 ft. So, it looks lkike physics of breathing did not change in thousand years and was accurately measured!
ps 6 ft is for large particles that go down reasonably quickly, this is separate from aerosol that accumulate in the air.
TLIK,
I think it is legitimate to go ask a higher authority, it was just not worded properly. He had to disclose what mashgiach told him and also ask for the best option rather than “mutar or asur”.Even the dilemma is invalid: mutar in some contexts means that it is wrong but not punishable as asur.
Eved – so what was the answer? unless he just kicked you out?
I don’t think we can summarize Muslim-Jewish relationship in one sentence. Rambam had to run away from crazy Muslims in Spain to more moderate ones in Fes (with it’s first Madara/Proto-University before Europeans had them) and then to Egypt… Rambam ran away from Christian Spain to Muslim lands … Ottomans let Sefardim after they were kicked out of Spain … Think of Har Habait: if Muslims were not there for last 1,000+ years, it would be either have some avoda zara or a garbage dump.
But if the question is how would EY work without Zionists, just look at Syria now instead of Ottomans a hundred years ago.
Abba_S> Do you think they are going to sit around and do nothing.
I would suggest disaggregate the fact that Biden is not working out as President – that 60% of the country agrees with – and resistance of some gov workers to vaccine mandates (usually 5% of those).
While it is true that mandates make Biden even weaker political, we don’t have to play partisan games here on either side and discuss issues as we see them.
> From first Orthodox > Conservative > Reform
It actually went from O to R, then back to C.
R in 1860s were Jews. Those who did not want to be Jews, tried to go somewhere, not other way around.> so buy two seats
Looked into that! Generally, not possible. Airlines could do something creative if they wanted to and cared. Either segregated flights, or just allow people indicate their vax and mask status in seat selection – charging extra for changing seats based on this info. I’d pay to seat near a boostered and double-N95 person.
Emergency shows so many “conventions” that are in the way of life-saving ops. for example, many recently published articles have a link to “data” – and all instead of data provide a standard excluse: anonymized data can not be provided because it still may violate privacy (that is, someone can figure out a person based on his serology …). So, it is one team looking at data instead of hundred.
common > HEAP filters filter out 99.97 of the air, people are capable of deciding if they want to wear a mask while flying,
I am not against the idea that planes are safer than subway and schools. I saw impressive papers some time ago. If you have an argument find those and quote.
Still, Common, you know physics, right? You have 2 neighbors near you in the airline. They are in your face. Their breathing and coughing lands on your face before it reaches filters, even if you have directed airflow that moved the air down because the person projects the air. Try putting a feather in the air and blow it a little, and see if it goes down or towards neighbor. Or see if you can smell his food. Also, check whether they now use their filtering system while plane is on the ground. At some point, reports were that they did not. Maybe they do now.
So, when CEO says filter deals with “99.97%” of air, he may be technically correct. Maybe he can report an independent statistical report following up people after a flight. And, as someone noted already somewhere here, variants have no problem travelling between countries – most likely by air.
ujm, ok, include those also. I am thinking someone who was learning Gemorah daily for 7 years learned something. Let him/her in the stadium (after an exam to verify).
coffee > Unless lawsuits start coming if people get sick from their planes
I agree. I still stand by the statement that they are biased medical experts. There are better ones published, and if you care about the topic, you could refer to those.
coffee > It had agudah’s logo shown everywhere,
That is why I am saying that two messages did not match – “unites worldwide Jewry in an unparalleled display of achdus” and a logo (or, more importantly, speakers). This detracts from the awesome event, unfortunately. I hope this was on organizers, and not the opinion of people who were learning the daf for 7.5 years though.
ujm, I have no problem with your list, other than OO , non-O and various criminals. I appreciate that expanding a circle leads to boundary problems … This is not an excuse to exclude obviously eligible.
coffee, the event did not say “Aguda’s event”, the webpage says:
The Siyum unites worldwide Jewry in an unparalleled display of achdus. Jews from all walks of life join in pursuit of a common goal – the completion of Shas, in its entirety. In countries across the globe, the dedicated ranks of Shas Yidden are learning and achieving, as they work toward the upcoming 13th Siyum HaShas. The singular allegiance to Torah will once again be apparent, when we gather to celebrate the momentous culmination once again, on January 1, 2020coffee > Personally I think the סיום השס was from joy yet
yes, this is bothersome. Corona was already out at that time, we just were not aware …
The event was inspiring indeed for many people, including kids. The hesaron I noticed then (not to fully diminish inspiration) was that the speaker row was Agudah-inspired. I read somewhere that YU had their own little event and then went to the large one despite being excluded from the podium. It would be more meaningful if the “anu rotzim” include everyone in “anu”.RebE > why an am haaretz is not allowed to eat meat.
Indeed, so PETA has their rationale right, as well as people “protecting the Earth” (literally Am Haaretz)
common > they own the planes,
they don’t own the planes, they are indirectly hired by shareholders to maximize profits. Their pay is extremely correlated with that. Most people, including myself, will take small or reasonable risk as part of their parnosah. Kal v’homer if the rewards are huge and risks are someone else’s.
> So being locked down and having shuls and schools closed to you is as bad as keeping a piece of paper on your face.
I understand your point. I have no problem with people trying to do things responsibly, even if disagree on specific risk/reward estimates.
There is a difference between people who are forced to eat non-kosher when conscripted into Czar’s army and those who buying a BigMac because it is cheaper. Same here.
The new thing I see now is that people are really tired of the magefa and everyone around them getting “natural immunity” a couple of times, so they psychologically turned it off. I saw recently an elderly rov in K-95 davening with great kavana on the outside side of the minyan, standing at a 2-person table with 3 more tables nearby. A just slightly younger unmasked person comes in and sits down at the same table, spreading subway style half-way towards the other one. The elderly rov, gently moves away (not to offend?) and continues standing without a chair/table.
What gives? I think – there are some derech eretz issues that are well-known and people are trained from childhoold: don’t step on someone else’s feet, makom kavua, wear pants in public … and then there are some that pop up a new and only people who think about mitzvos consciously do them. Others reveal their inner am-haaertz. As my (non-MO) Rav suggested – you land in Israel, take an Uber, get to a destination, pay him without thinking and go. Wrong. You should stop and register that you are doing a mitzvah of paying a worker on time, l’shem ..
jackk> surely do not take their advice.
I think the issue is more that they are interested parties. As R Meir Twersky wrote – we value human life more than others, as their cheshbon is more of money v. health. And also airlines have bad record of providing safe air. They were never bothered by people getting sick on the plane.
And they chose their words carefully: it is safer than other indoor environments (they did not specify which one). So, those who are used to sit for hours with tens of other people in a room with bad ventilation and closed windows, will be safer in the air. I think research supports that. Not sure what is wrong with the mask though as it sure protects you from your neighbor’s sneezing.
shlucha > they had weak immune system, even a simple sneeze caused them to die.
sounds plausibly. don’t you see it now? if you have a weak immune system (or just towards particular patogen), then you get seriously sick and soon after someone sneezes (nose is irritated), the lungs will be affected too.
and weak immune system (comparing to now) may be due to lower travel and community mixing, and also probably less crumbing people in the same room. Urban life changed a lot. For example, 19th century brought sickness from spoiled milk that was transported from villages to cities until pasteurization was instituted (which was protested by non-believers and as much as vaccines now).