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note to self and to my descendants: in the future, read the name of the country before settling there.
some > our obligation to completely rely on heaven to protect our nation in exile
With all due respect, this sounds like kefirah to me, maybe you are not expressing yourself well. Or, as I said before, you are holding at a level that is not possible for most other Yidden, but a tzaddik like that will have rachmonus on us, poshuteh yidden.
are you limiting this “completely rely” to golus? So, when Ramban was challenged to a debate – he should not have argued against their religion? Rambam should not have run away from Spain? Polish Jews were wrong forming vaad arba artzos? all medieval shtadlanim were wrong asking for kings’ protection?
or are you limiting it only to the issue of mass aliya to EY? So, you prefer non-religious Jews in 19-20th centuries who became communists to those who became Zionists?
ebrown > The alternative is to have an army run by Torah Jews, with only Chareidim in it.
a good idea. And how did IDF start – with several militias that were sometimes unhappy with each other. Nothing stopped R Zonnenfeld and Chazon Ish from starting their own units. At that time, there were religious Jews who were veterans of Russian and Polish armies who could have started. But it is not too late. Start small – maybe take on Huthis or some other small group.
wtsp > They aren’t problematic concepts in of themselves, but when you intertwine them with love for ארץ ישראל, it is extremely problematic.
…
> Don’t twist up the anti-Zionist view to sound worse than it is, and don’t twist up what Zionism truly means to make it sound better than the apikorsus it is.I appreciate your acknowledgements, but it is completely unclear what your target is. Your first senetence ^, for example, is a statement that hangs out there: you agree that the concepts you listed before are not problematic, but then they are problematic due to intertwining them. There is no explanation here. As you clearly said at the beginning – you selected a position first and now wonder about things that contradict your pre-selected position and trying to explain away all these data points to make sure they fit your position. You are not the only one bothered. See comments by various posters under multiple news articles, where instead of expressing relief when there is less danger to Yidden in EY, first words out of their mouths is – don’t thank the army … there is some psychological issue behind that. Imagine if your wife were to cook you a dinner and you would reply – I am thanking Hashem for this, not you?
wtsp > We are obligated to, and should naturally feel, appreciation and tremendous gratitude toward them for all they do. Yet we can’t appreciate them while failing to recognize that all their successes are straight from הקב”ה – He is the One we should be thanking first and foremost.
finally a statement that I think most here can agree with. Thanks for the post (and thanks Hashem for increasing shalom between Yidden).
wtsp,
I am not sure why POLITICAL MOVEMENT, STATEHOOD , SELF-DETERMINATION are problematic concepts in general, unless you make some additional assumptions?aguda is a POLITICAL MOVEMENT
STATEHOOD is every state in the world.
SELF-DETERMINATION is something Jews always pursued even within other states (Vaad Arba Artzos, Ghettos. R Shimshon Hirsh’s kehilla)> don’t make that worse by denying that of course Jews obviously go OTD in that shmad army.
is there any research on those charedim who already went to the army – what was their state of mind before and after the army?
LerntminTayrah> Chareidi parties agreed to allow bochurim to serve in the IDF before the Iran attacks began.
possibly, but it appears that the final moment was that Arye Deri was at the last moment told why this is not the right moment to bring the government down and that meant the end of the rebellion. Not sure – was Yuli Edelstein in the know? Maybe Bibi was killing 2 birds with 1 stone – create an impression that his government is going down to fool Persians and, l’havdil, forcing Shas to surrender. Maybe not just “forcing”. From my outsider POV, Shas always feels a need to compete with other charedim to be considered charedi, but they are happy to do what is right for the country as long as they have a solid excuse, so Bibi gave them that.
Another parallel in negotiations (in no way, I am considering the parties here, hope nobody is offended, we are just studying negotiation processes – and this should be on everyone’s list in Trump times!): Persian non-extremist side of the government would like to surrender but cannot in front of the extremists. So, when all their military will be bombed out, they can agree because there is nothing to surrender. Same might be (just a hypothesis) view of some of the Roshei Yeshivos – they might want to have their students tit and learn, and those who do not learn not to walk and around and smoke – so they might be willing to surrender here, but they cannot be seen surrendering.
Lernt > sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
This is an interesting conclusion, indeed! So, despite early anti-religious Z arguably were “taking people away”, the current matzav is that, Hashem somehow turned it around and the Zionists support so much of learning and other mitzvos also … is this “too big too fail” like with banks!?
PS As to “taking people away”, we talked about it earlier. I doubt that anti-rel Zs were _the_ major factor in people leaving Torah: if someone wants to be not religious per se, there were more comfortable pathways at the time – marry a goya, convert, go to Amerika, get admitted to university, etc. I think anti-rel Zs mostly recruited among those who were already not religious and they were more preferable than complete assimilation. So, these people benefited from going to EY instead of US or USSR.
> “naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? I
This is not what I meant. I am saying that now the whole community claims that they are dedicated to learning despite everything. When people make claims, Hashem often sends challenges. So, presumably those who are not ready to learn in poverty and without rights, will move to other places or occupation. They don’t have to go OTD, they can move to England or Russia or Egypt, and work and learn there. I understand that any mitzva and learning are precious, but losing learning of those who claimed to be selfless but survived on someone else’s money. Sheker is not emes.
some > since the government claims itself to be fraudulently jewish,
current Israeli gov is based on a (qualified) democracy that includes non-Jews – both Arabs and non-halachik Jews. What is the problem with following rules of a democratic society? When Jews were drafted into Russian army, yes many tried to evade, but nobody called for a rebellion against the czar. Furthermore, the (religious) kahal was required to provide the soldiers and much corruption was happening, when poor and orphans were usually drafted. (one of my ancestors was). But the same seems to be happening now – heads of your community are negotiating who from your community will be drafted why trying to protect the rest. There is normal democratic process – as long as you do not lead into hatred towards other Jews because they are not voting your way.
some > I’m not claiming any levels. this discussion is about basics of being a yid and claiming membership in klal yisorel.
Minyanim at the kosel usually include all kind of yidden davening together. according to you, a “true charedi” would not be able to daven with all these other Jews. Mahbe all those charedim at the kosel not holding by your opinion? So, your choice is to either acknowledge that or put those charedim in the same cherem you put all non-charedim.
> . I’m sorry you zionism has taken you so far off
I do not consdier myself a zionist, so please take me off your misheberach list.> if you are attacking me personally here, please point out anywhere I have been anything but polite.
I did not try to trace specific personality. I just see the small cluster of anti-Z posters having very specific characteristics here – they do not bring a gut vort or a gut joke, or ask a good question. All quotes are about condemnation of Z. There is rarely concern about other Yidden, suggestions to say tehilim (as mentioned above – contrary to Satmar Rebbe). In short, there are many posters who bring some story and I, and maybe others, say – I’ve learned something or I’d like to emulate something this poster did. For example, there are chabad posters who defend positions that I find untenable, but I admire their passion in helping other Yidden and in focusing their learning on their Rebbe’s writings.
some> The kefira of zionism has nothing to do with it being “anti-religious”… this is explicit in the first paragraph of the subject of this post
I hear your point, but I think our statements that things changed still stand. The Rebbe’s first par seems to have two relevant statements:
(1) relying on ourselves (2) using force to leave exile.(1) is tied to being religious. Observant Jews acknowledge Hashem’s gifts and our limited role within it. At least, they should. If someone does not, he should be shown sefarim to read. You may project all kind of bad motives to RZ, but at minimum, we can say that RZ minimized this problem comparing with anti-RZ.
(2) is the past problem. Israel exists right now. If your position is correct, then presumably Jews were or will be punished for that in some way. Are we to “do teshuva” and leave EY in mass? any pre-20th century sources discussing what to do after “3 shevuos” are violated? For every mitzva, we usually have a warning, a punishment, and a way to do teshuva (when possible). Please bring these halochos and let’s discuss.
Notice that this is catch-22 – as leaving EY involves a lot of halachik problems, so given problems in two alternatives, you probably should sit and do nothing. And, again, why did Chazon Ish and everybody else were citizens of Israel and did not leave?
As to current situation, Israel is not involved in wars of conquest, but in defensive wars. So, it has nothing to do with any of your shevuos.
qwerty > I was in Shul this past Shabbos and the Rabbi pleaded with us not to speak any Loshon Hora and so I understand the gravity of the subject.
not about people you are talking, but I am wondering whether we are violating halocha by Chofetz Chaim not to praise someone who is not a complete tzaddik in public because you are triggering (my words, not his 🙂 someone to start saying negative things.
YYA> he Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them
A student asked Chazon Ish whether he is allowed to say kiddush in front of his parents (kibutznikim, and the mother not dressed appropriately). To what Chazon Ish replied: and you found a place for chumros when you are in front of your parents?
wtsp > The one and only thing I will openly express hatred toward is APIKORSUS, that which the Israeli government stands for and promotes.
government is a group of people. I don’t think you have problem with these specific people – they are similar to other people, I don’t think you hate everyone like them. As for them being in the government – they did not get there by force. They got elected by majority of citizens of Israel – same way as governments of other democratic countries (and I am not going to presume that you prefer Iran/Russia/China). Most governments we live in are far from perfect. We do not hate them, generally. We were for centuries saying brochos for even worse governments. So, it seems that the main frustration is due to the fact that the majority of those voters are Jewish – and they did not vote your way. I understand your feelings, and it is would be strange if a Jew did not feel any hesaron that exists in a Jewish country. So, the source of your frustration is, ironically, your own Zionism: you expect (justifiably) more from a Jewish country that from other countries you could live in.
One way to decrease your frustration: if you slightly increase your circle of acceptance who is amecha, you would realize that at this point observant and masorti Jews all together are probably a majority of Jewish Israelis – something that was not the case 80 years ago. So, if stop pushing them away, you might actually improve the matzav by purely democratic means.
> is that the ideology called “Zionism” is certainly kefira.
I think multiple people answered that what was anti-religious Zionism 100 years ago does not exist today. There is just nothing to argue then.
> escape exile through derech hateva “histadlis”
Not everyone is holding at high level of religiosity as you are. Shmuel was afraid to travel al pi Hashem being afraid of Saul and Hashem proposed him a way to lie his way through. Tanach and Gemora are full of people who were dealing with the matzav by fighting, negotiating, bribing, spying – and yes, praying too. So, feel free to stay at your madregah, but then
(1) do not expect others to subsidize your madregah,
(2) behave towards others according to the level you expect Hashem to grant you. Somehow, I see a lot of non-politeness coming from your camp. Satmar Rebbe was known for his sense of humor, maybe at least show that.LerntminTayrah> . Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim?
A good thought experiment. Under Turks, Old Yishuv consisted only of people who were ready to live in poor conditions supported by Yidden from other countries. So, the community would naturally reduce to the true number of tzadikim we actually have.
maybe we should stop feeding persian trolls right now?
YYA> The type of Zionism that ‘somejew’ and others are thinking of pretty much no longer exists.
Right. For sure this means that we need to look at things as they are now. But as for historical lesson, you can read it both ways – SR was right opposing it. Or R Kook was right that eventually Zionists will be more religious/traditional. Unfortunately, it is hard to learn lessons from history.
YYA > All noise to the contrary notwithstanding, on the person-to-person grassroots level, there is much more אחדות here than you may think.
I absolutely agree. I mentioned that in the thread on siyum hashas – most baalei batim I talked to would like to have everyone together.
Also, I know places where Rav is officially very charedi and proper, while somewhat sympathetic to others in his unofficial lashon. When he is not present, others might say tefilos for tzahal, medina, shevuyim instead of saying tehilim for unnamed reason as many places do.
user > The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king
Israel is, more or less, a democracy with (too) frequent elections. So, the citizens are responsible for the government. So, if you think people are wrong, go and talk to them. Explain your positions, open schools, show with your behavior that yours is an honorable way to behave.
yankel > If they will – validly – point towards the many anti torah activities the state engages in . Then the answer should be al pi torah that we advocate for the cessation of those activities.
This may be a sign of … assimilation. Recent generations are growing up entitled to a lot of things from their parents and society in general. One American sociologist writes that recent sharp reduction in births in US is partly due to the “children” looking at how much their parents were doing for them – and realizing that they are not capable of the same, so they skip on the kids … So, here a cluster of population feels that society somehow “owes” them benefits and they are entitled to disregard their civil obligations because society is “not good enough for them”.
How bad the situation really is? Jews for centuries lived in societies that double-taxed us, limited jobs, murdered us once-in-while – and we continued being observant Jews. And most siddurim have brochos for the kings, czars, and kaisers and their families (by name – czarina, their children). Why suddenly, it is not possible to give a misheberach to a Jewish government and army? Maybe charedim are, in their hearts, biggest zionists after all – they expect that Zionists have to establish a halachik state, provide support to Torah learners (while still given them passports for occasional vacations) – and only then they’ll come out and join other Yidden.
What will happen when Moschach b’ Yosef comes and forms his army? Will he wait until yeshiva bochrim learn to operate the tanks or will he go with “the army we have” and the bochrim will be pleading to be taken in? start training now, if you don’t want to be on the sidelines.
yankel berel> Anyone honest , has to agree with this observation, notwithstanding his righteous anger at the real destruction Z has wrought upon religion .
I think there are social reasons here. B’H, most of those movements and threats you listed have disappeared or are not a big threat for us right now. So, who can work up energy to protest communists of yesteryear just because they put to prison your great-grandfather. Zionism, l’havdil, is present at least in RZ form, if not much in the original, and represents a threat if not to the Torah itself but to the guidelines charedi community lives in. So, more – and higher – gedorim are built up in order to “protect” the masses. See another recent threat where OP is wondering how come he is favorably looking at Israeli achievements while it is, supposedly, coming from sitra ahera. I don’t think this is sustainable in a long term. Charedim need to find a way to accept that there is value of what other Jews are doing. It should be easier in Israel than in US as the surrounding society is Jewish.
I think I joked already that the new law was secretly written by Roshei Yeshivos to make learners learn. And here it is reported second-hand:
>> And the sanctions going into force immediately would actually be welcomed by many rabbis — who would prefer that their students not travel abroad or engage in other behavior that would distract them from their studies, said Yanky Faber, a reporter for Behadrei Haredim.
>> “They don’t mind these sanctions at all,” he said.wtsp, I admire that you noticed this cognitive dissonance. Maybe, the solution is other way around: if you see your fellow Jews being mosser nefesh to protect other Yidden and often have tremendous hatzloha, and they include a lot of shomer shabbos Yidden – maybe you can think how you can contribute instead of oppose?
coffee > And Joe is happy that reform will be getting twice as much money as EHK
there is not much danger in money given to reform, other than bitul mamon. So, some elderly Jews will listen to good music and some non-Jews will get lectures in tikkun olam. We got to be more careful with other groups so that they do not spend money advocating for shitos that work against achdus of am yisroel.
Regarding agadta, Rambam says definitely that some is very real, and some very symbolic, so maybe there is no one rule here.
YYA > This is עד כדי כך, that there are people out there who claim openly as if Judaism doesn’t have anything to say about ‘belief’, only ‘actions’ ח״ו, which I assume you agree is itself clearly אפיקורסות
I _believe_ that there is such trend in modern Judaism, probably from Rishonim up. Maybe not so explicit, but def emphasizing action v belief. Some say that this is caused by trying to distance ourselves from our European neighbors who stressed “belief”. So, possibly, some went too far in the other direction. (I do agree with you).
non=political > Many none-arab nations are currently running peaceful, multi-cultural countries in the Middle East. One of them could administer the land of Israel.
There is some truth in this as of now. Looking back at last 80 years – Arabs killed millions of other Arabs and with higher rate various minorities. So, if Jews in EY have stayed under Arabs, they would not have lived until current times. And same with Sephardim under same Arab/Muslim states. Egypt and Syria were briefly a joint country in 1970s, I think. So, there would have been a large socialist caliphate – from the river Nile to the Caspian sea, maybe even joining USSR.
Even recently, there were enough murder in Arab countries … but nothing stops those so inclined to organize settlements in EY outside of the Medinah. Presumably, the Arabs will be happy to support such Jewish group.
> In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
I understand that this was modus operandi of galus, but did your 3 shevuos extend to not fighting anytime, anywhere?
at the end, there is a halachik way to deal with shevuos via hatarat nedorim.
“when you made the shevua, did you think that there will be a Jewish state in Israel with an army and arrows that can hit Haman in his office 1000 mil away?”
“no”YYA> Only Bibi versus Anything Other Than Bibi, Yuli Edelstein trying to send his boss into retirement and become the next boss, Bennett taking another shot at the Piñata and not caring what will happen the day after, and other שאר ירקות that are very relevant to the security needs of Israel.
I agree that a lot of heat is generated by people trying to get ahead politically. Maybe there is a moment now, again, to try to join together, whether in the army or in tehilim.
YYA > On a practical level, the Army needs the Chareidim like a hole in their head.
The rational part of the current matzav is a prolonged war. Israel was previously successful at making war quickly. With long engagements, resources are stretched. There is increase in sending women closer to combat than usual. Given how emphatic R Kotler was against drafting women into Tzahal, maybe he would suggest to send available men instead?
Maybe you mean that Caredim are not prepared for the Army? This is “killing the parents and asking for rahmanus as an orphan”. They are not prepared because they refused to prepare. In practical terms, those who want to do teshuva could use pathways that can be accessed faster – maybe drivers, cooks, computer engineers …
anonymous > So, if you lived in the United States in 1942, how would you evade the draft?
Maybe Lubavitcher Rebbe’s way (by working for the Navy_
ujm > The Gemora is correct. Albert Einstein, in his Theory of Relatively,
I agree with ujm. Moschiach is coming. Even before Einstein, the fight was about nothing. Ptolemean astronomy was correct – it predicted events. It is just formulas were a little more complicated than Keppler’s ellipses. Big deal, with computers it doe not really matter. Galileo would have been better off inventing computers.
At the end, any point can be used as the center. As the gemorah says: a person can say that the world was created for him [and can use himself as the center of the world to compute astronomic calculations].
yankel > What would be lacking if they did ?
hard to say. Here is a case: Ms Sarah Schenirer got the idea of building a school from Rabbi Dr Frisch from Yakkish school. Several yakkish ladies with university degrees helped her build the curriculum. After that, she got first cursory and then more support from some of the chassidisha rebbes – and opposition from others. If some of those rabbis knew what Rabbi Dr Frisch knew – maybe they would have come up with the school system earlier and with yad rama rather than leaving `the mitzvah to Ms Schenirer? How many neshomos ended up in a wrong place in the meanwhile?
I am not advocating for rebbes doctors, just answering your question “What would be lacking “
R. Brayer, Boyaner Rebbe, Brooklyn college
yankel berel> How many hasidic rebeim thru the course of history , studied in universities , what are their names and when did they live ?
Sorry, I am lurking at this thread and I don’t have enregy to go back, so I may not understand the hidden meaning of this question. But I decided to research this intriguing question. The list seems to be short:
Lubavitcher Rebbe – university of Berlin, Montparnase Vocational College
his brother Yisroel Aryeh Leib Schneerson, died while doing PhD at Liverpool university
Talner Rebbe – Boston Latin high school, hebrew college, harvard, hebrew university,
Mayer Twersky, seems to consider himself (or considered?) Talner Rebbe – harvarda possible drop-out: Munkacser Rebbe, Moshe Leib Rabinovich studied in Israel, undertook secular studies in public schools in São Paulo, Brazil, and later studied in the United States at the Telshe yeshiva in Cleveland, Ohio, refusing to attend college, to his father’s [previous Rebbe] disappointment.
almost there: Dr. Abraham Twerski – got the smicha, from chassidic family, but not really e rebbe – Marquette U, U of Pittsburgh
an honorable mention: Dr. Yehuda Sabiner, First Gerrer Chassid to Graduate Medical School
Red Adair, thanks a lot for taking an effort. It does look like considering answering the call meduaraita is the key here.
somejew > “even if these men were wholehearted with Hashem and His Torah , and even if there were reason to think they could achieve their goal, we are forbidden to listen to them in this matter: to bring about our redemption through our own power.” … The Rebbe list his sources and explains its application to the situation.
I agree that this part of his argument stands better than others. Still, are you not shocked by the number of assumptions in this letter that turned out different? Does it not make you think that the issue is complicated and you need to be careful with conclusions?
But, strictly speaking about current matzav, as others are calling here – we are not deciding now whether to go against Arab armies into EY. We currently have several millions of Jews in EY, including multitudes of religious ones, yeshivos and chesed organizations all over the place – are 3 shevuos saying anything about this? any classical commentator discussing this b’dieved situation? Should we apologize and return to the shtetlach in Ukraine? Sephardim going back to Syria and Morocco?
yankel berel> I’ll say it again – it is mutar to exaggerate in order to stop one ‘s talmidim from being influenced from malign actors.
This seems to be an often used device and is, no doubt, often needed. What are parameters for such statements? And if some of it is allowed as haraas hashaah, how do we evaluate a lot of the emergency Torah of the last 100+ years of “emergency” and make sure we do not lose the emes to emergency?
I think this letter is a good contribution to the discussion. We can see that certain statements and predictions came up differently in history. Clearly shows that even big talmidei chachamim do not always see what will happen. In this case, the letter is well written and lists reasons and assumptions, so it is possible to see the parts that need re-evaluation.
Avram > asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
Not suggesting that. I don’t know how often the false calls are. From the press, it seems that fake 911 calls are pretty common. If this is extremely rare, I would agree. But if this is somewhat regular, we should make sure that operators feel respected and not discouraged. In the story of Chaim Brisker suggesting to add fire on shabbos so that the doctor could see better the sick grandson, baby R Soloveitchik – people in the room hesitated, so then R Chaim did it himself. Was it really very likely that the doctor will make a mistake and not ask for more light if needed? probably, not. Same here – is it likely that someone does not join hatzolah based on one false call? probably, not. But it is part of accumulating information that affects our respect to the operators.
yankel > One cannot escape the fact that untold numbers of Jews lost their religion and connection to the RBSHO because of the historical Z movement.
I am not so sure of that. There were plenty of other non/anti-religious movements at the time, attractive both for material reasons (conversion, assimilation) and those who were idealistic (communists, bundists). True, I can see that someone still attached to Jews as a nation, will not be attracted to many foreign -isms, but would be to Zionism. But I think this balances with number of Jews who were saved by Zionism – first by encouraging them to go to EY before WW2 and by keeping non-religious Jews in Israel, marrying Jews, etc. R Schach writes that Hashem gave the brocha to early Zionists that Arabs did not accept them. Otherwise, they would go to universities if Beirut and Cairo and assimilate …
Even look at Soviet Jews in 1980-90s – half went to Israel and half to US. Those who came to US are way more assimilated and intermarried.
This might be a case where considerations of the person are important. We allow someone who drives to a hospital to drive back – so that nobody hesitates to drive someone.
In case of hatzolah, if there are many false calls, I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.
I am not sure there should be an argument here. R Soloveitchik’s goals for YU was to produce a large number of minimally qualified Rabbis who can be useful to the large number of Jewish communities of minimal observance. He specifically compares this with the Litvishe yeshiva world he came from. His goal did not seem to be to raise a small number of outstanding Talmidei Chachamim. As far as I know, R Kotler was NOT looking to place his students in such environment.
As to such rabbis in remote communities, other Talmidei Chachamim valued them. For example, when Ner Yisroel was sending bochurim to such community to fundraise during chol hamoed, some asked R Ruderman whether bochurim were allowed to shave so that they do not look disheveled. He answered – if the local Rav shaves on chol hamoed, they bochurim _should_ shave so that it does not look like they are trying to be “frummer” than local Rav.