They are not governed by the Torah, so I expect them to lie.

@somejewiknow,

I would like to know what you are smoking. Gotta get me some of that!!

Reality speaking, can we even have a state controlled by frum Jews? If all Zionists gave up control, and handed the reins over to frum Jews, can such a state even exist?!

I don’t think frum people have the capability to rule the government effectively and torahdik. There is too much corruption and inconsideratation from Frum Jewish politicians. They each have their own Daas Torah which a lot of times is antitheses with each other.

The only time religious Jews can run a government is when Moshiach comes, and all deceit will be abolished. Until then, the non religious people can rule.

Thoughts.

@ujm,

I guess ALL the gedolim agreed with Hitler.

The only ones that disagree are the Miroglim.

I was told by my Rosh Yeshiva, Klal Yisroel as an innate love for Eretz Yisroel. This even applied to the times of Moshe Rabaynu. However, just like by Moshe there were Meroglim, always finding an excuse why not to go up, we have them here today.

A bochur mentioned that there are “gedolim” who are against the Zionist and State! He responded, are these gedolim greater the gedolim and nassim who were the Meroglim?!?! The Meroglim were the gedolim in the times of Moshe Rabaynu!! One cannot fathom how great they were. But now we only refer to them as the Meroglim.

So it doesn’t matter what “gadol” is against Israel! They are still a zera from those Meroglim.

The Meroglim had great excuses!! The land is filled will Giants, there death, they are doing avodai zaroa, burning their children to the Molach.

Today, we have the same excuses: there are Zionists, there are the IDF, there are non religious government, etc

Same excuses, different generation.

The point is clear: anyone against Eretz Yisroel, Israel, Caanan or any other name you want to use, us just repeating history. Some feel strongly to follow the VYoel Moshe, I will just follow Moshe Rabaynu.

NK is not better than the Kapos in the 40’s. They cite halacha and Rabbanim, but the end result, they are worse than the meraglim. No true Daas Torah hold of them. And before you quote some random guy, be aware, I stand by my statement. No true Daas Torah holds of them. If you quote anyone, read my statement again. No true Daas Torah holds if them.

R Yoel strongly disagreed with that letter. He believed in religious Zionism very strongly. He even called the Zionists for assistance in leaving Hungary.

I wonder why if R Wasserman stated that it was better to die by the Germans than have any to do with Tzonim, why to R’ Yoel violate that psak?

I think the break away happened when most Rabbanim were killed in WW2 and unfortunately, the world didn’t recover. YU wasn’t effected as much so they continued to produce their gedolim.

I think the Jewish world would benefit if we can dismantle Satmar peacefully. We, as Jews, would experience less sinas chimum, and Moshiach will finally come.

ubiquitin,

You said…We have it better than almost any generation in hisotry since the churban..

That is false! It’s better even from the times BEFORE the churban. We don’t have kings killing our Talmedai Chachamin. We don’t have kings putting idols in the Baid Hamikdash.

We have a government that provides for the needy and Torah!! All that is missing are frum Jews davvening for Moshiach since they are too busy hating other Jews.

@Hakatan,

Unfortunately, you can’t redefine history. More Zionists survived WW2, than Jews in Satmar or Poland. This is a fact that you cannot distort. It seems kind of odd that Hashem would allow this, no? Must be, that Zionist are not bad. Maybe it’s because, like by Miztrayim, Jews did not want to leave Egypt and 4/5ths were killed during Choshech to reduce the chillel Hashem. This sounds more logical. We are at the cusp of moshiach and Hashem knew that people will deny him, so he had to reduce the anti eretz yisroel people. This is why more Zionists survived because Hashem knew they yearned for Eretz Yisroel, no matter how irreligious they were or torahdik they were, versus frum people that with all the Torah, are anti Eretz Yisroel.

I don’t think any frum person should vote in the election. This would allow a better opportunity that the money would be distributed to people who believe in yishuv haaretz and not waste it on farkrumpt mosdos.

My question is, everyone knows that R Yoel was an anti Zionist. But why should one care what he says? R’ Yoel was not a gadol hador. He was a great Rebbe for HIS chasidim, but the majority of Jews are NOT his chasidim or even hold of him or his sefer. This does not mean he was not a great Rebbe.
So if he does not want to live in Israel, so be it. I don’t care. I also don’t care what he has to say about the topic because I do not hold of him either. If he is YOUR Rebbe, you follow him.

The problem with people commenting here on Zionism is they really have no clue what it is, or means besides what they parrot from people who also have no clue.

The Zionism today is NOTHING what Hertzel envisioned. If you are not a Zionist and living in Israel, you should leave. You don’t belong there, it is not your land ( until Moshiach comes, not do you fight for it.

Squarearoot, you are right. People here think they are frum and know the Torah. Unfortunately, a lot of frum Jews today are ignorant of the Torah. The poster above seems to fall into that category of being ignorant.

One of my rabbayom said that a lot of yeshiva bochurim turn to Chassidus or Breskiv because they feel void they in the Yeshiva System. Thr coldness and musser being taught does not work well in today’s generation. Those who can’t fill the void, goes OTD

Haleivi,

There is NO gemera that states that today’s Galus is binded by any oaths. I pointed out, numerous times, that the gemara regarding oaths were clearly on Bayis Rishon and no where does it say Bayis Sheni.

In addition, ומסתברא is a term that does not unequivocally mean final. It means a logical conclusion without any evidence. As stated again, even if he was a Navi, no where does it ever say he received Navuah regarding the geula. NO WHERE! You seem to ignore that and just relay on prior prophecy that even Daniel didn’t know when 70 years were over. No where in Navi does it say a date etc. You relay on a lot of assumptions to meet your narrative.

Like I said, you staying behind is no difference than all the other gedolim that were wrong. The Meraglim were also the great of their generation and were wrong. By not seeing the hand of Hashem sis denying everything he is doing because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Like the millions of Jews in Egypt that volunteered to remain behind because after all the miracles, they still felt it was not time.

HaLeivi,

I’m sorry but that is not how a gemara finds the answer. It does not say מסתברא. That is a word that means, most likely, but not certain. In addition, even if he was a Navi, we have a whole Sefer of Ezra and not one nevuia regarding the geula? Think with your gemara cup! Does that make sense?!?! The pivitol moment when Jews can go back, and not ONE neviah?

We are in a zeman similar to when Jews had to leave Mitzrayim and Bavel. There is no Neviah, but the timing is right. It seems you have chosen to remain in Mitzrayim and Bavel. That is your right. It is even your right to criticize people who believe in the Geula. But it still wont make you right! You will be known as the Chamishim. As Rashi explained, the 4/5ths of Jews who remained in Egypt, even though they were being persecuted. They probably said the same thing as Satmar, that the 400 years weren’t over and even after all the miracles, they still felt Moshe was not the right leader. Most probably because he looked like a Goy, like the Torah described him, he looked like a Egyptian.

So I will follow the goyish Zionists to the Land that Hashem promised our Avos. That’s that!

@Helevai,

You answered it yourself, מסתברא . That’s not a clear indication, even if you want to say he was a Navi. So there is no one that said he was a Navi. He had no Neviah that we are aware if, and yet, he seems like a Zionists violating the oaths.

Smerlel,

You are right! They turn into an Amy Stein who affiliates with h the Squad. Why can’t these OTD satmars become MO?

AviraDeArah
You spew statements, and then backtrack. First it was “Ezra had a nevuah” Then you had to clarify he heard of the nevua. Now it’s “Elisha ate meat from the table of Izevel, who was steeped in idolatry.” but it is now the birds brought him meat from an Avday Avoda Zara and a Zona.

In addition, no one knew when the 70 years started or ended, Even Daniel made a mistake. There was NO Nevuah when it ended. Only when the GOYISH Kingdom allowed the jews to go up and rebuild did the jews realize the time was up. Kind of like the UN and Israel.    edited   It is Kedusha, regardless who runs the government.. It had kedusha under the worst kings of Jews, and it still has kedusha now.

” there are clear indications that they were frum otherwise and knowledgeable in Torah.” I do not understand your definition of frum? it is the satmar version? Belz? How do you define frum? The torah that I learned was someone who is worships idols, kills people, and is a zona, is not frum.

@Avira- you wrote “Ezra had a nevuah”. He knew of a neviah, but did not receive any neviah! And everyone did not believe in it or they would have gone up with him!!! Majority of the Jews stayed behind! It takes action! Yes, all the Tannaim, amoraim stayed behind and that is why we don’t a geula now!

You are stuck in the 1800’s! Zionists today are not what it was 100+ years ago! Talking about Shmad is ridiculous! If you are so anti Zionists, don’t accept their money and you won’t have any issue with the army. Plain and simple. Don’t be leach.

And yes, I would pick Bibi over King Yanni, King Manesha, Zechariah etc any day!!!! The problem why we don’t have the Bais Hamikdash is because YOU are not building it. You have done ZERO hishtaduls. Even Dovid, when he knew he can’t build it, prepared everything to be ready when it will be built. What have you prepared? What have you done?
All your ilk are the same. Zionism this, Zionism that! What have you done to bring moshiach? What have you done to rebuild the bayis? All I see is you taking money from a chazir because you justify why it’s ok.
Per the Torah, there will be multiple moshiachs (gasp) and they don’t even need to be Jewish!!! ( Blasphemy). But a true talmid chochim knows what I am talking about. So who said that Bibi is not a moshiach? Just because he doesn’t wear a straimel?

HaLeivi,

That’s exactly what the rabbonim in the times of Ezra said! And look what it got us? More Galus!!!
I am sure the Meraglim, who were also B’nai Torah, Rabbanim, and who were nassim, Great men, holier than anyone you named in your posts, also said it’s not good to go up. The 7 nations, you only have Zionist… 🤔
You can believe whatever you want, just like the Meraglim and and all other Rabbanim and Jews who refused to enter eretz Yisroel, and all for good reasons too! I’ll err on the side of the avos, Moshe, yehoshua, Ezra, nechemia and all other Jews who went to the land that hashem promised.

If you feel Zionists are bad, boy, you should have lived in the times of the Bais Hamikdash!!! It was terrible!!!!!!

@Haliva,

Last I checked, amoraim discusses things also outside their time period. In this case, they were discussing a verse in Yermiyahu that discusses coming UP from Bavel. Hence the conversation about the oaths.

The Amorim were NOT discussing the second gals. Its clearly outlined in the Gemara.

@halevi

Correct, it does not apply today. It’s only for Bayis Rishon. That is what the Gemora mentioned. It did not mention anything about Bayis Sheni.