HaLevi

If you want to bring analogies from the Romans, keep in mind, the man’s original followers were yeshiva Bochorim who thought they were following a Rav! A Rav that spoke well. A Rav that quoted things and made people feel happy. The nationalistic Jews, they followed Rabbi Akiva and Bar Kochba. Are you saying Rabbi Akiva violated the oaths? He knows less than the Satmar Rebbe?

The rambam clearly states „והכת הראשונה תפרש הדברים כפשוטן, ותאמין שהדברים כמשמען, ולא יעלה על דעתם דבר זולתו… ולפי דעתי אין מין טפשות למטה מטפשות הכת הזאת.“

What I find fascinating about this l, is how you are easy to accept a gemara as Halacha, but something clearly stating in Halacha, you make all the excuses why it should not apply.

Again, I will put this in a simple sentence that any am haaretz to understand. The 3 oaths are NOT halacha. You can learn whatever you want from it, but no one needs to follow it. If it was a halacha, the Halachic Gedolim would have included it. They did not. I challenge ANYONE to show me a Halachic source in The Shulchan Oruch, Rambam, Rif, that quotes the 3 oaths.

But, I CAN show you the halachic source for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.

ZSK,

The OP was about Zionists being Rodfim. There is no argument. History has shown that the Satmar Rebbe cause more people to be murdered than Zionism!

@hakatan,

English may not be your first language, but I did State anyone! If R’ Kook falls into that category, I would stand by it. However, that is not the case and I am not worried. It’s your Rodfim that’s fall into that statement.

@Hakatan,
He was not a Gadol. As the post title states, he is a Rodef.

@somejewwiknow,

Like I said, a little knowledge extremely dangerous. This is why a lot of Yeshiva Bochorim today are Rodfim. They learn a shtickel Torah any they become Keyboard Rabbanim.

When Pirkai D’ Rav Nosson wrote אֱהֹב אֶת הַצַּדִּיקִים וְשְׂנָא אֶת הָרְשָׁעִים, he does not mean Zionists or their like. He is referring to מינים / אפיקורסים.
The Chofetz Chaim in Klas 4 clearly states in the Be’er Mayim Chaim:
אבל בזמנינו רוב האנשים נחשבים כתינוק שנשבה, ואין לדונם כמרידים ומינים חס ושלום, ואדרבה מצוה לאהבם ולקרבם לתורה

The Chofetz Chaim even wrote in Ahavat Chesed, chelek ב׳, ואפילו מי שרחוק מן התורה והמצוות מחמת חינוך גרוע, הרי הוא בכלל ישראל ומצוה גדולה לאהבו ולרחם עליו

@flamingOTD

You sound like a tuna bagel. Someone who used to be chassidish, has knowledge, but is soo ill informed that you distort history.

Once you said ” 1st the current populations of Jews in israel were not in need of this “self-defense” from Hamas prior to the establishment of the state of israel.” Just showed how ignorance is dangerous and I stopped reading the rest of your garbage. Israel prior to 1948 was a dangerous place for Jews. I’m not going to start teaching you history, You should not have left Yeshiva early on. Or you needed a better education.

And then a second ignorant statements you made was that majority of Palestinians do not support hamas. As you know, Hamas is the ELECTED government in Gaza. I don’t know if you’re familiar with how elections work, but, the majority wins. Which again shows ignorance in your statement.
And the fact is you completely ignore that the Jews are the indigenous palestinians. Jews are the indigenous occupants of the land. Not were, but are! It seems like you are upset that the indigenous people, the jews, are the only indigenous people that were able to overthrow their colonial masters. So you go ahead and distort history.
So when you say the word palestinian, you need to step away from your extreme views and accept that all the points you want to make are referring to Jews. You would never consider that the native Americans are not indigenous because European colonizers are the majority! That’s how absurd you sound when it comes to Israel and jews. While Jews may not have been the majority, and they were colonized by Muslim Invaders, they are still the indigenous people and no amount of colonization can ever change that.

Sorry, I can’t read through the rest of the ignorance because it is painful to read how woefully ignorant someone can be.

@SomeJewInKnow,

They are uneducated so they don’t have seforim I can quote. However, their protesting cars always delegitimize Jewish presence as rulers. They want to hand over Israel to goyim which violates the Halacha. The fact they want other Jews to be harmed by their action shows they are not from the zera of Avroham Avinu.

Not at all. It actually reenforced my opinion that people learn Torah, but don’t internalize it. People on this forum are clueless regarding basic tenants of the Torah. I have concluded that a majority of the yeshiva world are giligulim of the Dor Hamidbar. They follow their Rebbe’s and Rosh Yeshivous over anything that is explicit stated in the Torah, just like the Dor Hamidbar.

Just imagine, Moshe Rabaynu was described as an Ish Mitzri in the Torah. Do you think any of the so called Gedolim would follow him today or would they argue he looks like a Daati Leumi Rabbi? That’s probably what the Merolglim said to convince Klal Yisroel to reject Eretz Yisroel! Nothing changed, just the hats and yarmulka.

NK is Anti Torah. The Merolglim also were the gedolim of their generation. We saw what happened.

I don’t know how and frum Jew on this site can speak bad about Eretz Yisroel? The Torah clearly consideres you part of the Merolglim. Yes, you and the Rabbanim who you follow. End of story

A famous Rosh Yeshiva said that today’s generation more people go OTD by staying in Yeshiva than by going into the Army. Look how many people even had time to betul Torah for a stupid match.

They are not governed by the Torah, so I expect them to lie.

@somejewiknow,

I would like to know what you are smoking. Gotta get me some of that!!

Reality speaking, can we even have a state controlled by frum Jews? If all Zionists gave up control, and handed the reins over to frum Jews, can such a state even exist?!

I don’t think frum people have the capability to rule the government effectively and torahdik. There is too much corruption and inconsideratation from Frum Jewish politicians. They each have their own Daas Torah which a lot of times is antitheses with each other.

The only time religious Jews can run a government is when Moshiach comes, and all deceit will be abolished. Until then, the non religious people can rule.

Thoughts.

@ujm,

I guess ALL the gedolim agreed with Hitler.

The only ones that disagree are the Miroglim.

I was told by my Rosh Yeshiva, Klal Yisroel as an innate love for Eretz Yisroel. This even applied to the times of Moshe Rabaynu. However, just like by Moshe there were Meroglim, always finding an excuse why not to go up, we have them here today.

A bochur mentioned that there are “gedolim” who are against the Zionist and State! He responded, are these gedolim greater the gedolim and nassim who were the Meroglim?!?! The Meroglim were the gedolim in the times of Moshe Rabaynu!! One cannot fathom how great they were. But now we only refer to them as the Meroglim.

So it doesn’t matter what “gadol” is against Israel! They are still a zera from those Meroglim.

The Meroglim had great excuses!! The land is filled will Giants, there death, they are doing avodai zaroa, burning their children to the Molach.

Today, we have the same excuses: there are Zionists, there are the IDF, there are non religious government, etc

Same excuses, different generation.

The point is clear: anyone against Eretz Yisroel, Israel, Caanan or any other name you want to use, us just repeating history. Some feel strongly to follow the VYoel Moshe, I will just follow Moshe Rabaynu.

NK is not better than the Kapos in the 40’s. They cite halacha and Rabbanim, but the end result, they are worse than the meraglim. No true Daas Torah hold of them. And before you quote some random guy, be aware, I stand by my statement. No true Daas Torah holds of them. If you quote anyone, read my statement again. No true Daas Torah holds if them.

R Yoel strongly disagreed with that letter. He believed in religious Zionism very strongly. He even called the Zionists for assistance in leaving Hungary.

I wonder why if R Wasserman stated that it was better to die by the Germans than have any to do with Tzonim, why to R’ Yoel violate that psak?

I think the break away happened when most Rabbanim were killed in WW2 and unfortunately, the world didn’t recover. YU wasn’t effected as much so they continued to produce their gedolim.

I think the Jewish world would benefit if we can dismantle Satmar peacefully. We, as Jews, would experience less sinas chimum, and Moshiach will finally come.

ubiquitin,

You said…We have it better than almost any generation in hisotry since the churban..

That is false! It’s better even from the times BEFORE the churban. We don’t have kings killing our Talmedai Chachamin. We don’t have kings putting idols in the Baid Hamikdash.

We have a government that provides for the needy and Torah!! All that is missing are frum Jews davvening for Moshiach since they are too busy hating other Jews.

@Hakatan,

Unfortunately, you can’t redefine history. More Zionists survived WW2, than Jews in Satmar or Poland. This is a fact that you cannot distort. It seems kind of odd that Hashem would allow this, no? Must be, that Zionist are not bad. Maybe it’s because, like by Miztrayim, Jews did not want to leave Egypt and 4/5ths were killed during Choshech to reduce the chillel Hashem. This sounds more logical. We are at the cusp of moshiach and Hashem knew that people will deny him, so he had to reduce the anti eretz yisroel people. This is why more Zionists survived because Hashem knew they yearned for Eretz Yisroel, no matter how irreligious they were or torahdik they were, versus frum people that with all the Torah, are anti Eretz Yisroel.

I don’t think any frum person should vote in the election. This would allow a better opportunity that the money would be distributed to people who believe in yishuv haaretz and not waste it on farkrumpt mosdos.

My question is, everyone knows that R Yoel was an anti Zionist. But why should one care what he says? R’ Yoel was not a gadol hador. He was a great Rebbe for HIS chasidim, but the majority of Jews are NOT his chasidim or even hold of him or his sefer. This does not mean he was not a great Rebbe.
So if he does not want to live in Israel, so be it. I don’t care. I also don’t care what he has to say about the topic because I do not hold of him either. If he is YOUR Rebbe, you follow him.

The problem with people commenting here on Zionism is they really have no clue what it is, or means besides what they parrot from people who also have no clue.

The Zionism today is NOTHING what Hertzel envisioned. If you are not a Zionist and living in Israel, you should leave. You don’t belong there, it is not your land ( until Moshiach comes, not do you fight for it.

Squarearoot, you are right. People here think they are frum and know the Torah. Unfortunately, a lot of frum Jews today are ignorant of the Torah. The poster above seems to fall into that category of being ignorant.