catch yourself

Charlie Hall –

I applaud you for doing business only with honest people, and I agree that you had a good reason to end your business relationship with that plumber.

I would just point out that the particular character flaw you mentioned is one which was directly related to the business aspect of your relationship with him. You didn’t fire him because of his vulgar language, which was silentmoishe’s point.

CTL

Ah! I knew you must have a Mesorah!

Would you mind sharing your recipe? The few times I’ve tried pickling, it has not worked out well…

Yserbius is absolutely correct.

Cucumbers at least do not pretend to be what they’re not. Half sours are pickle wannabees.

Politics as usual in America.

People talking right past each other, ignoring the basic fact that there is a legitimate debate to be had about the candidates.

But let’s not vilify each other or impune each other’s character or Torah observance because of something so unimportant as our political affiliation or voting intentions.

Wolf,

Whatever your shortcomings (which I’m sure are overstated), they are no excuse not to do the right thing from now on.

This includes the Chesed of saying Kadish as a zchus for the Neshama of your relative.

What’s new is old.

Here is a not so hypothetical question

I was spanked as a child. I don’t think it made much difference in how I turned out. It certainly did not fix the immediate problem my father wanted to stop.

My wife and I do not hit our children.

It is not better to hit than to yell. Both are wrong and ineffective, with very few exceptions.

It is better to allow children to suffer the consequences of their poor decisions. I do not mean to mislabel punishments as “consequences”. If a child makes a mess, s/he should have to clean it up. A child should know that if s/he doesn’t do what is expected, s/he won’t be able to do what s/he wants to do (play with friends, go on trips, etc.). Parents should express empathy while their children deal with these problems, but they should not “rescue” them.

Suppose that Chaim disregards his father’s instructions to wear a coat, and now Chaim is uncomfortable. Chaim’s father could [sincerely] say something like, “Oy, Chaim, I feel so bad that you’re cold. I’m also cold when I don’t bring my coat.” Dad should not buy him a new coat, or go back home to get his coat for him. Odds are that next time, Chaim will wear his coat.

This will work much better than spanking Chaim yelling at him, both of which will stop him from learning the real lesson he should learn, and instead provide him a scapegoat for his discomfort.

commonsaychel, it almost seems like you deliberately took my words out of context in order to post what seemed to you like a witty rejoinder.

Of course, what I said was that the services [these organizations] provide – not the salaries their employees earn – are the pride of our generation, which was to the point of the discussion about CEOs leading their organizations to success.

Coca Cola doesn’t market its product by advertising the CEO’s salary. One obvious reason for this is that, even if the CEO deserves his pay, that won’t motivate the consumer to choose their product over the competitor’s. They tell the consumer what he needs to hear: “Drinking Coke will make you appear to be the coolest person on the planet. You will always be ecstatic while drinking Coke. You will be surrounded by friends and celebrities, and you will drive the best cars. Also, Coke tastes really good!”

Likewise, a Kiruv organization shouldn’t market its CEO’s salary, no matter how well deserved. This is not what will motivate their potential donors. The marketing should be about how well they fulfill their mission, or about how cool it is to ride your bicycle to the mountains, or how great it is to play hockey, or whatever will bring in the cash.

I suspect you knew all of this.

To be clear, of course I think it’s important that non-profits should be fiscally responsible. Corruption is reprehensible and should have no place anywhere in our society, certainly not in Tzedaka organizations. I have no problem with people who research the financial dealings of these organizations. I think “sunlight” is healthy, and transparency is good.

All I was saying was that I agree with CTL that there is nothing inherently wrong with employees of non-profits earning generous salaries.

I don’t remember ever agreeing so wholeheartedly with CTLawyer, but he’s absolutely correct.

If the CEO does a great job, he deserves a great salary. I don’t remember learning that human nature changes when you work for a good cause. Doctors are credited with humanitarian motivations in addition to their lucrative earnings, and there is no reason that people involved in non-profits shouldn’t enjoy the same benefit of the doubt.

unommin, even Moshe Rabbeinu was careful to have as much “sunlight” as possible, according to the Medrash.

In response to asimpleyid

Some people never miss an opportunity to denigrate “Others”. They are best ignored, unless there is a danger that their poison will infect the innocent.

som1 –

“of course there is going to be a few racist cops, just like there are a small percentage of racist civilians.”

Do you really think there is a “small percentage of racist civilians?”

Reb Eliezer – a small, but, I think, important adjustment:

I don’t have the Klei Yakar with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly, his point was more about avoiding ostentatious displays of wealth than about the jealousy itself.

For people who do not work on their character (which includes the vast majority of humanity), jealousy is a normal emotion, especially when other people flaunt their riches. We cannot control the natural tendencies of the masses.

What we can control is our own behavior. The Klei Yakar interprets the Pasuk as advice for surviving Galus: Don’t incite the jealousy of the other nations.

The Klei Yakar is not saying, “the other nations persecute us because they’re jealous.” This would be a statement of an irrevocable fate.

He is giving us guidance for how to deal with exile: “If you don’t want the other nations to bother you, make sure not to poke them in the eye.”

Now if only we would listen…

Old Crown Heights –
I agree with your main points. I just think that the “highest magnitude” is excessive hyperbole, and Halachically incorrect. The Chillul Hashem would have to be of a higher magnitude when it involves deliberately violating a Mitzvah in public.

It’s silly (at best) to impute our own logic to HKBH. One reason people might do so is to comfort themselves.

Not participating in the census is, for some people, validation of what they were doing anyway.

If the reason for our current suffering were something else, that might affect their lives dramatically. Imagine if, for example, they would have to start actually keeping Hilchos Lashon Hara. This would represent a huge change for many people, one which they may not feel ready to undertake.

It’s easier if the problem is simple, like the census.

It’s exactly the same thing as blaming people who aren’t Torah observant. If it’s their fault, I don’t have to do anything to fix it, I just have to make it clear how terrible they are.

Schnitzel Bigot –

I agree (as I posted earlier) with your general point about the mistreatment of blacks by law enforcement in our society. I, too, have anecdotal evidence to support it. As you say, anyone who talks to some black people will hear that this problem is so ubiquitous that it is a fact of life for them, והמפורסם אינו צריך ראייה.

Nevertheless, as I understand it, George Floyd was arrested for passing counterfeit money. This was not an unwarranted traffic stop gone awry. The police were called by the victims of the fraud, and they responded to the call. If it would have been a simple arrest, there would be no questions. I’m not blaming Floyd for what happened to him; I’m simply responding to your remarks about the facts of the case.

Someone in Monsey –

What could justify questioning someone’s Jewish lineage? עיין רש”י על הפסוק אכן נודע הדבר

Do you so strongly identify with your American political views that they define for you the meaning of Jewish identity? If so, you need to reexamine your life.

“Racially motiated?” Of course not! I don’t think anyone believes that the police officer thought to himself, “I’m gonna kill this <African American>!” as he put and held his knee on Floyd’s neck. Presumably, that officer had countless opportunities to kill people prior to this event.

What happened to Floyd wasn’t racially motivated. It wasn’t a lynching. But it may well have been a result of racism. We probably will never know for sure whether this specific cop has racist attitudes, and whether he treated all citizens equally under the law. This is not the point.

The point is that there is a racist attitude which permeates all interactions between police and black people. Horror stories such as Floyd are the most outrageous expressions of this attitude, but the protest is about every incident of anti-black conduct. It’s about the demeaning treatment they suffer at routine traffic stops. It’s about the presumption of fault against them at minor accidents. It’s about the way they are treated every day of their lives. Sure, it’s about the murder of George Floyd, but it’s also about the relentless abuse of huge numbers of people.

Of course, there is no justification at all for the riots, violence, looting, etc that is currently going on. These people are criminals taking advantage of an opportunity. But this should not blind us to the truth of what happened.

As Yidden, we should understand better than most people the suffering of African-Americans. After all, we’ve been there many times in our history. We should recognize that this is wrong, and we should say so. The Torah, long before the U.S. Constitution, taught us that “all men are created equal,” and enjoy rights “endowed by their Creator.” There is no place in Hashem’s creation for racism in any form.

As a Rebbe, I can tell you that, while distance learning has been better than nothing during this crisis, it has also proven that homeschooling can not replace the school experience.

As many have noted, social interaction is a tremendous part of childhood and of education, and homeschooled children are deficient in this part of their growth. This is true even in the best circumstances, in a vibrant community and many neighbors, and with proactive parents who make it a priority to provide opportunities for social interaction for their children.

Moreover, the real key to teaching Torah is the relationship a Rebbe builds with his Talmid, and this is exponentially more difficult to achieve through distance learning, if not impossible. If the Torah education of your children is one of your top priorities, I do not think you should even consider putting them in a position where they will not be in real contact with their Rebbeim and Moros.

n0mesorah,

“Torah is studied” – for sure
“The question is how do I approach what I do not understand” – I don’t think we disagree about this, either. If I understand correctly, we both agree that Divrei Chazal should be accorded the utmost respect, and when we don’t understand something, we recognize that it is our own shortcoming, not a flaw in Divrei Chazal, whose greatness is incomprehensible to us.

“We seem to agree that we accept what is uncomfortable to us” – Insofar as the fact of the discomfort is not, in and of itself, a logical reason not to accept it.

Our debate is about whether the Divrei Chazal in Midrashim (and perhaps Agadeta Gemaros) has the status of being part of the immutable Torah Shebaal Peh that Moshe Rabbeinu received at Har Sinai. According to those who hold the negative opinion, we are permitted to disbelieve these Divrei Chazal, though we do so at our own peril. (I personally think that any Ma’amar Chazal which seems incredible in the literal sense presumably was intended to teach a lesson, discernable though the lesson may be to me as yet).

Did I get that right?

Milhouse –
Due to the constraints of time, shorthand responses point by point:

1. I understand it may be surprising, even shocking. I was also startled when I first saw it. I know this is not what we learned in Yeshiva. Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear to the objective researcher that many Rishonim and Acharonim held this way. Are you labelling Rav Shamshon Rafael Hirsch an apikorus?

2. The Rambam labels both of the first two groups fools, but does not label either one of them as heretics. He does label as heretics those who deny Torah Min Hashomayim, including both Oral and Written Torah, but seems to define Oral Torah as the “explanation of the Written Torah, such as how to [perform the Mitzvos],” which is precisely the definition given by the Ramban. I do not defend heretics. I am merely presenting the view (which is widely held among the greatest authorities) that Midrash (and, according to many, Agadeta) are not part of the Torah which was given to Moshe at Har Sinai.

3. The passage in Sefer HaVikuach is quoted by some of the greatest Acharonim, including, for example, Chasam Sofer in Teshuvos, none of whom (to my knowledge) advanced your argument. It is true that, there are some recent Rabanim who take your approach and discount any points made in a Vikuach. To me, this is an outrage. Do you really mean to allege that the Ramban promulgated apikorsus in defense of our Torah?! (Quite aside from the fact that his opponent in that debate was an apostate Jew who was rather learned and would have been able to destroy that particular argument if it was not the real truth). This is very different from the Gemaros you reference, for obvious reasons.

4. It’s rather clear that the Ibn Ezra, Ramban, Radak, and many others have no problem disputing the historical facts asserted in Midrashim. If you want to say, “Well, Vashti didn’t literally have a tail, but the Gemara is teaching us a lesson in Middos,” that’s absolutely fine. It is, to paraphrase the Ramban, just like when a Darshan embellishes a story in Chumash to teach a lesson. We are free to accept it or not to, each according to his understanding. Of course, this is not to say that the lesson is not valuable; just that the Derashos of Rav Tanchuma in his day were not (according to this opinion) any more Torah Min HaShomayim than those of Rav Shalom Schwadron in his day. I am not saying it isn’t true in the sense that it is instructive, or relevant in the sense that it addresses us, just that this opinion holds that it isn’t an “inherent part of the Torah.” I am not stupid enough to pretend for a moment that I approach the greatness of intellect of Chazal. Of course, when they speak, we should listen. It is the foolishness of the Rambam’s second group to think that we are on anything approaching equal footing with Chazal. That is not the question at hand. Our discussion is about whether Midrash is part and parcel of Torah Min HaShomayim, not whether we should learn the lessons it teaches.

I notice that you did not address Rav Shmuel HaNagid or the RItva.

For the record, if I recall correctly, the Chasam Sofer accepts the Ramban implicitly, and only enters into discussion about whether the Ramban meant to include Agadeta Gemaros with Midrashim, or if he held those were part of the Oral Torah.

There are those who attempted to sweep the letter from Rav Hirsch under the rug by disputing its veracity, but they ultimately had to acknowledge that there is no question that the letter was accurate. When pressed about it, they reputedly responded, “Rav Hirsch iz nisht fuhn unzer Beis Medrash.” This to me is rather telling about their own intellectual dishonesty, but not at all about the actual discussion.

Well, to start, the Ramban says so explicitly in Seder HaVikuach, and so does Rav Shmuel HaNagid in Mevo HaTalmud. (It’s worth noting that, although not a Rishon, Rav Hirsch followed this view as well, as he writes in Collected Writings)
The Ibn Ezra disagrees with Midrashim countless times in his Peirush on Chumash, as does the Ramban, as well as the Radak in his Peirush on Nach.

The Ritva says that the whole story of what happened during the debate about Tanur Shel Achnai didn’t really happen.

The Rambam in his commentary to Mishnayos writes that whoever thinks that everything Chazal say must be taken literally is a fool who makes the Chachamim seen like fools.

The list goes on.

I know there are those who argue, and that’s fine. Just don’t pretend this isn’t a mainstream opinion.

unommin

Your vitriol deserves no response.

I will say only that suffering through a very difficult situation (which we all are, although it is certainly possible that you are more severely affected than most) understandably can make a person upset and even bitter. It does not excuse many of the things you have said.

I think you would benefit from some counseling. Many communities have organizations which can arrange for this, free of charge.