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S’dei Chemed has a long piece defending the recital of Machnisei Rachamim.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43519&st=&pgnum=6&hilite=
As HaLeiVi points out, the Mahara”l had two ways of defending it; although his conclusion is not to say it, he clearly would not consider someone who does say it to be in violation of the principle recorded by the Ramba”m.
Charlie is completely off base here.
I guess Shavuos is helpful.
Mongeese? I guess that’s more polite than “big fat jerks”.
We’re not being ???? them by asking them to bring our tefillos to Him.
I agree with Dr. Hall on this one
Really? Would you drink the wine of someone who says Machnisei Rachamim? Would you drink the wine of someone who doesn’t believe in Moshiach?
If the answers to those questions are yes and no, then you don’t really agree with him.
I don’t know you, zahavasdad. By your logic, I guess you don’t exist.
What a chutzpah, and what small-mindedness, calling a minhag accepted by a very large segment of klal Yisroel “stupid”.
“Halacha: anything written in shulchan aruch”
Mechitzah isn’t in the Shulchan Aruch. Does that mean I can go to a non-mechitzah synagogue to daven?
He didn’t say Halacha is limited to what’s found in S”A.
“in the majority, the ???”? is not followed.”
Which just goes to show that Rambam’s 13 principles are NOT universally accepted today.
No, it’s a legitimate machlokes whether that’s the kind of praying to malachim which is prohibited.
There’s no machlokes about whether believing that we are moshiach is what the Ramba”m meant.
There are still some people who don’t say ?????? ????? or make that change, but in the majority, the ???”? is not followed.
???”? believing in ????, which was universally accepted.
Staying up to learn on Shavuos night when it means that you you sleep an entire erev Shavuos and Shavuos day.
Do they?
Do you two know each other?
OK, next…
Who knows where I can find the song with the words, “??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????”?
What do Chofetz Chaim guys have to do with hockey?
R’ Yankel Miller relates how on the first night, he asked someone to be motzi him with the brachah. The fellow exclaims “but it’s the first night!”.
“Okay,” responded R’ Yankel, “I’ll be motzi you”.
Nusach Ari is not the same as Nusach Sefard, AFAIK. Chabad chasidim use N”A, others use N”S.
PAA, someone who holds that way today is an apikores.
Popa,
He obviously knows less about slaughtering than he does about Torah (meaning, he knows negative about slaughtering since not only does he not know what does happen, but he even thinks things happen which don’t, as opposed to Torah where he just doesn’t know anything).
I don’t understand the chilluk you’re making. He’s in negative territory on both, for the same reason.
Matan1, from the article linked in the OP:
“The following quotes are from an article he had published in the Jewish Week, February 1, 2012.
The issue is how this applies to individual issues that might be beyond the scope of Rabbinic expertise, or something in which they may not have all the information.
That’s an issue in halachah as well.
From R’ Dessler:
???? ???? ????? ?????*
???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??”?, ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???, ??? ??”? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ?’ ??? ???? ?’, ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”?, ???’ ??”? ?”?, ???’ ?’ ???? ??????? ?”?, ???’ ?’ ???? ??? ?”?, ???? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ???????, ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????”?, ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????? – ?”?. ?? ??? ???? ??????. ???? ????? ????? ????, ???”? ?????. ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????, ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?’, ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????; ?? ????? ?? ???? ???, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ????, ?? ??, ?????? ???? ????????, ????? ???? ???? ????, ????? ?? ????? ??????.
???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ?? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ??”?, ???”? ?????? ??”? ???’ ?’ ???? ???? ??”?, ????? ???? ?? ?????, ?? ???’ ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ?? ????? ???; ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ????: ?? ???? ?????????, ??? ???? ??, ??”? ???? ????? ????????? ??????? ????? ??”? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???, ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ???? ???????. ??? ???? ???? “?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ???. ????? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ?’ ????? ????”?*) ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??”? ??”? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???, ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???”? ????, ???’ ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ??? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?”?, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ????. ?? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ??, ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???. ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????.
????? ?????? ?????, ?? ?????? ?????”? ??”? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????”? ??”?. – ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?”?. ???, ??? ?????? ????, ?? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???, ??? ?????, ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? (?? ?? ?? ???”? ???), ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? – ?????? ????? ???? ???? (????? ??”?) “??????? ????? ????… ??? ??? ?? ????.. ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ?????? ??”. (???’ ???? ?”?) ???? ???? ?????? ???? : – ??? ????? ??? ???, ?? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ???? ??????? ??????? %? ??? ?? ???, ??”? ?? ???? ?????, ?????. ??”? ?? ??? ??? ??”? ??? ??. – ??? ?’ ???? (???? ?”? ????????) ??????? ???, ???? ???? ?????? ??, – ?????? ???”? *) ??? ??? ???? ??? ?”?, ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????, – ?????? ?? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ???? (?’ ?’ ??? ?’) “?”? ????? ‘??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????’, ??? ??? ‘?”? ?????? ??”??’ ??? ???? ????”. ???”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ??, ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??????, ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???????, ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??, ??? ??? ???? ???? ????, ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????, ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????.
* ????? ?????. – ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????????, ????? ???? ??,
??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ??”? ???? ??????, ??? ???????, ????? ??
?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???]. ???????.
*) ????? ???? ??”?, ??? ?? ????? ??.
It proves that if I want to know about who’s going to win a hockey game, I should ask you and not necessarily my rav, unless he has much more hockey knowledge than I think he does.
Really? If I once predict the outcome of a sporting event, that proves to you that I’m an expert?
And if your rav would predict who would win a game without any significant knowledge or research (assuming hypothetically that there was significance to the answer), I would tell you to get a new rav.
makes entire institution of Yom Tov Sheni by Shovu’os even wishier washier than by Pesach & Sukkos
Poskim say it actually might be more stringent, since it was instituted as a vaday rather than a safek (although I’m not sure I understand that; why should a “lo plug” be more chamur than the original din?).
Either way, I agree with LF that the term “wishy washy” should not be used in this case.
Ask your rebbeim.
Popa, didn’t you say mussaf on the day following the first day of Rosh Chodesh this month?
lol
lo
l
Sam, http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-yerushalayim/page/2#post-523885
If you want to be fair, you would have to include their posts as well.
I also don’t think your comparison is correct. One is a slur against people, and one us a slur against a day. True, it’s a day considered important by many people, but it’s still much less direct of an insult.
That is one data point. Jabotinsky and Schoenberg, unfortunately, have six million data points on their side. 🙁
I don’t understand. Are you trying to prove the faulty reasoning of the decision making process by the magnitude of the tragedy? (As if six million would have left at the beck and call of the gedolim anyhow.)
So now the holocaust is the zionists fault?
I don’t think that’s fair. Hakatan was not comparing their blame to that of the Nazis, ym”s, but to the claim that gedim were at fault.
It was invented in the 1990’s after the death of Rav Moshe ZTL
It was used by Rav Dessler zt’l in a letter which refers to R’ Elchonon as “shlit”a” (1940s). It appears in S’ma (Daas baalei battim…).
More importantly, the concept, if not the terminology, goes back to Chaza’l.
We can start by looking at who instituted these days; Chaza”l vs., l’havdil, the Israeli government.
Squeak is right that there’s kochi v’otzem yodi involved, and DaMoshe is right that the frum celebrants attribute it to Hashem. This has always been part of the debate surrounding RZ – the joining with kofrim on religious grounds is at the center of the issue.
OK, so let me rephrase my post: Charlie, I predicted that the Rangers would beat the other team to get to the championship. According to your logic, that proves that I have more hockey expertise than anyone who predicted that the other team would win.
In other words, It still doesn’t prove anything.
Random bump troll (self explanatory)
Sock puppet troll (multiple usernames by the same person to support his/her point)
False source troll (quoting seforim which don’t actually say anything about the topic, or actually contradict the poster)
Note: the arson troll can be in the middle of a thread.
Charlie, I predicted that the Rangers would beat the other team to get to the championship. According to your logic, that proves that I have more daas than anyone who predicted that the other team would win.
Sam, the passuk I quoted (see Rash”i), the sevara peshutah that someone steeped in Hashem’s wisdom will typically be wiser than one who is not, and life experience. See R’ Dessler for a deeper understanding. (My rebbeim didn’t necessarily go with R’ Dessler on everything, but it’s still a great m”m).
Gavra, you put “chochom” in quotes. I don’t know to whom you refer, but I can assure you that I am more discerning as to who possesses “daas Torah” than it may appear. I am discussing the principle.
There was no way for Da’as Torah to know the future, as they are not Omniscient. As such, they reasonably believed the people were safe (which they weren’t).
Alternatively, understanding that the Holocaust was a Gezairah Min HaShomayim, Hashem blocked the “Einei HaEidah” from seeing what the potential danger was, as part of His master plan that needed the Holocaust (and all of the deaths) to happen.
Both. Also, as simcha 613 posted earlier, there was a ruchniyus aspect to the decision, and that may have been balanced into the decision (although I doubt it could have been the sole deciding factor).
Gavra, see Chazon Ish, Emunah Ubitachon, 3-30, who says in no uncertain terms that accusing chachomim of personal bias is considered mal’ig al divrei chachomim. He addresses the passuk you quoted.
You might be right in some cases, because not everyone who carries the title Rosh Hayeshiva is necessarily a proper talmid chochom, but you’ve got to be very careful.
You suggest one should discuss daas Torah with… daas Torah. No one can disagree with that point.
Why not? What if I think I’m more qualified to define the parameters of daas Torah than my rebbeim are? (Wouldn’t some people feel that way?)
MachaaMacher, to whom are you talking?
5′ 12″
Daas Torah is not infallible. There are situations in which one must follow ones own daas.
No, daas Torah is not infallible. But of course neither is mine. So how would I know when to follow daas Torah and when to follow mine?
I know you said to (ironically) ask your rebbe, but ha gufa; maybe the gedarim he’ll tell you are wrong!
What I’m getting at, of course, is that despite a gadol’s fallibility, he still has a better chance of being right than a non gadol, so why wouldn’t you avail yourself of that for important decisions?
Definity assur. We just need Sam to tell us whether it’s chukas akum, or darkei haemori.
😉
but I’m pretty sure R’ Shmuel Eliyahu is a Bar Hachi to argue.
I’m pretty sure that R’ Yitzchak Yosef disagrees with you.
I think we all agreed that at least regarding halachah issues, we rely on “Daas Torah”. Instead of how we feel about it, does anyone have a source from poskim against using plastic?
Also, lol at the random subcategory. Was that you, PF, or a mod?
DaMoshe, do all things fall into the same category? Or could it be that one thing is constant but another changed?
Putting aside the stale pro-zionism anti-zionism argument, can you see the merit in what pba is saying, that it’s not wholly good, and not wholly bad , but a mixture?
Pixelate, more than it reminds you of the ? on foil pans here?
147, except that he didn’t insult Yerushalayim.
PBA, how do we counterbalance the chillul Hashem caused, with the fact that a large number of unaffiliated Jews have come closer to Hashem through the inspiration they received at the Kosel (think of the tremendous work of people like R’ Meir Schuster, z’l), which creates a huge kiddush Hashem?