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when someone asked this goy what are you did he say i’m a goy?
What are you, three years old? Enough of this silly back and forth. It is not going anywhere, and once you feel the need to start checking with Webster’s, you have gotten way too into this.
It was a SIMPLE statement.People do not necessarily identify THEMSELVES as something just because they are dressed a certain
way. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they do not. A person who dresses like a chossid but is NOT one (and in this case might not have said anything at all, but simply blended in with the crowd), may have a number of reasons for doing so, NONE of which might be that he is actually emotionally connected to chassidus.
There was a model once (night have been an Israeli Jewish girl)who wore a TALLIS as a fashion statement. She liked the look. I cringed when I saw the picture of her, dressed inappropriately with a TALLIS worn like a shawl or cape. Did that Tallis make her a frum guy? Stop this already. You are getting a little too hyper, and need to dial it down a notch, IMO. And NO, I do NOT UNDERSTAND, so please stop asking me.
I understood it to mean they WANTED to set the “yearbook girl” up, because she was so beautiful, no one cared about the rest of the stuff written about her.Even if it was fake, it certainly proved the (shallow) point that we are too preoccupied with looks.
“tactile” (means related to sense of touch)
Did you mean tacit approval? What you wrote was unintentionally humorous, given the nature of this forum. And please forgive me, I am not trying to embarrass you – I thought it was a cute mistake (the type which I make very often).
Do you know that when you go to sleep at night, if you do it with the intention that you sleep well specifically in order that you may wake up refreshed and able to do mitzvos all day, that you get a mitzvah for sleeping? “I didn’t oversleep, Ma. I’m doing a MITZVAH!”
I say that anyone who makes it to 50 years nowadays DESERVES to have the occasion marked at least by being taken out to dinner with all the immediate family members. If you want to make it a Torah-dig occasion, maybe the sons and grandsons if any can make a siyum, and then it is a seudas mitzvah, also.
It is not so difficult to make this special occasion into a truly exceptional one, within Torah parameters. Each family member and friend who is invited should write down a special memory to be collated and bound into a “memory book” for them. If anyone is handy with a video, they can make a video presentation of family members being interviewed about their feeligns for the couple. Go for it.
“that is exactly the point! he identified himself as belonging to that chassidic group even though he wasn’t really a chassid
do you understand now oomis
“
Not if you are trying to make some point here… He was a PHONEY. He did not identify himself as BELONGING to that group. he didn’t share their hashkafa or even religion, as it turned out, he was a GOY. He used those chassidim, because it SERVED his purpose to do so, not because he was philosophically one of them. Do YOU understand, now, mbachur? I really am not sure what you are trying to say here.
Unless I’m wrong, Halacha clearly says that a persons going out to earn a parnassah is not bittul Torah. “
Even more – the Torah specifically obligates a father to teach his son a trade. There are few if any trades today that do not require some secular education, even if only to know how to correctly calculate a bill.
People spoil their kids for many reasons. Maybe they had very little themselves as children, and vowed to be different with their own kids. Maybe they feel guilty for not spending enough time both in quality and quantity with the children (BIG MISTAKE – that’s how kids feel a sense of entitlement later on). Maybe they just get pelasure from giving. Whatever the reason, it should be done with limits and seichel.
Hi Minyan, glad you got that second chance. Welcome.
If I had a second chance, I would spend that last Shabbos at my parents’ house 17 years ago for my birthday, instead of putting it off for the next Shabbos, “because the kids have colds.” It would have meant my children would have seen their Zaydie one more time. He suffered a massive stroke on Sunday and was niftar on Tuesday, and the hospital would not allow them in to see him, even if we would have thought it was a good idea (it wasn’t, with all the tubes in him). That is the biggest charatah of my life, though there are some other things that I would change, as well.
“I only said that wearing chassidishe garb says that this person idendifies himself as belonging to the chassidishe group. DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE????? “
Not necessarily. There was a time when my husband who is NOT chassidish, wanted to wear a bekesheh. He did not identify with any chassidic group, just liked the look. There is a story of a Nazi who hid out amongst chassidim,and they never realized he was not one of them, until he was recognized by one of his victims. (That story may or may not be apocryphal – I have not checked it out).
I would think it is only assur for a man to see his own wife in a bathing suit or go swimming with her if she is a niddah.
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Shneinu, sitting in front of a computer speaking to faceless people (who may or may not even be the gender we believe them to be), is NOT the same as saying hello to someone in the street. That being said, I will stick with my custom of being makdim kol haadom b’sholom. Far from a chillul Hashem, it creates a sense of ahavas chinam and achdus. And is that not what we need, to make a tikkun olam for the Churban?
Mosherose, I am so sorry, but you just sound so unyielding sometimes, but most especially with al tabeh sicha inyan. If I remember correctly it was a specific rov who said that and he was rebuked by Beruriah (?) for using too many words with her, given his personal viewpoint on sicha with nashim.
Your stated hashkafa is not one that is recommended between husbands and wives, I can tell you, or with other Yidden. If you truly believe a man and a woman have nothing substantive to discuss with each other besides the running of the household and kids, they must have the most unfulfilling and boring marriage on the planet. I would never live with such a husband, and neither would most normal women, IMO. Most women do not enjoy being ignored until their husband wants to discuss the new washing machine or whether or not little Shmuley is ready for Yeshivah.
And Max,what you are talking about is when the parents and wife are together and ALL need the same thing. The wife ALSO has the obligation of Kibud Av towards her in-laws. It’s not exactly the same thing as listening to their advice versus hers.
If parents ask their son to come over to do something at their home, and his wife needs him at home, he is supposed to stay home. Either that or my kallah teacher was a liar.
max, if what you say is true regarding where a woman’s best job is (I happen to believe it is at home, also), then why are the frum young men all going to learn and sending their wives out to earn (some with little babies already)? Your remark about them never joining the workforce is inaccurate. Today’s frum wives almost ALL are in the workforce, if not to support the family (which is the usualy case) then to help afford the exhorbitant costs of yeshivah tuition. Don’t bother to respond about cutting out luxuries, my husband and I drive a 20 year old car that we are nursing along, and have not been able to afford a vaction in almost 30 years, because the money is always going for Yeshivah, for car repairs, for braces and other medical expenses, for household emergencies, and yes, B”H for modest simchas, as well. I am not complaining, but I am explaining.
I wrote a caveat to everyone and said, on the slight chance that this is not just another stupid e-scam (which it probably is), I am sending this on to you. Feel free to do as you will with it.
“Kibud Av V’Eim is no less a mitzvah rabbah after marriage, then it was before marriage”
Except when it interferes with shalom Bayis between husband and wife, no? A husbna’d chiyuv, according to the Torah Shebicsav,is to leave his parents’ home and cleave to his wife. That means that when he builds a new home with his wife, SHE is his priority. yes he still has to be mechabeid his parents, but not when the choice is between their wishes and his wife’s. (obviously we are talking about reasonable people, not crazy demands made by irrational wives or overly-demanding parents).
Above: “Ok, so if a person wears a shtreimel and like the look and feels comfortable with it, then he is chassidish”
Wearing chassidish garb does not make one any more a chosid, than wearing a white coat and stethoscope makes one a doctor. It just enables you to fool the public more easily, if you dress that way without deserving the title.
Most suicides nowadays are attributed to emotional illness – that a person would have to be out of his mind with grief, to take such a drastic step. There are cases where suicide was not looked upon as an aveira. The story of the woman who was kidnaped onto a ship and asked a shailah (I guess a rov was also captured there), that if she were to jump overboard (rather than be defiled), would she lose her share of Olam Haba, and the rov said no, and she jumped into the ocean.
When a child marries, he or she is now in charge of his or her own life, with the spouse’s input. Kids will not always do what we want, but what we want may not always be what they need.
The WAY in which advice is conveyed is crucial. We did not want our parents to tell us how to run our lives when we became adults, and neither do our children. OTOH, kids who want to be independent, should not be expecting handouts from parents every two minutes.
I like Artchill’s approach.
I say Good Shabbos to everyone, man or woman, and if a man, do not look at him directly. I answer GS to anyone and everyone who says it to me first. My husband says good morning to non-Jews in the street on the way to shul. They ALL answer him back in kind.
People should stop making such a cause celebre out of this, in my opinion, and we will all be happier. Saying GS is only a tznius issue if you believe it to be. When it says hevei makdim es kal haadom b’sholom, it did not say, “unless you are a woman.”
On the chance that this is not a scam…ya got nothing to lose by sending it on to 12 other people.
S.Ch – you have a lot on your plate right now. Take care of the issues with your daughter first – that would seem to me to be the priority. It is too overwhelming to try to deal with all of it at once. I wish you much hatzlacha.
“Why would someone wear a kippah serugah “
Because someone they care about MADE it for them???? Because their kippah fell in the mud and the only one available was that one? BEcause they like the look and comfort of it (more lightweight thana suede or velvet one)? Any number of reasons. A kippah is a kippah (and my husband and sons wear suede).
Sof Davar, there is no bitul z’man in learning the skills necessary to make it in this world. When the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt and we have to bring trumos and maasros again, if for no other reason, math will be valuable to enable us to properly calculate what we owe. We are not on the madreiga of Bnei Yisroel in ancient times, so we really DO need to learn those skills. You want to know what is REALLY bitul z’man (AND money)? Taking time to purchase and light up a cigarette, as so many Beis Medrash boys do.
I really respect that Rebbe, Dr. Pepper. Wise words.
“I’m sure you transmitted your values to your children and also you’ve had much siyatta dishmaya and everything worked out great.”
My husband and I together have transmitted OUR values and our parents’ values (and his were not even frum, but they were amazing people, baalei chessed and both sets of grandparents o”h were incredible role models). Our kids are well-known in our neighborhood and elsewhere, for being especially kind, sensitive, and thoughtful people with excellent middos and integrity. S”D is a large part of all of our lives, but the basic structure has to be there first, to ensure that our kids do the right thing at ALL times.
“People made the assumption on their own. But in any case, they were right I shouldn’t have written the word “group”.”
That’s because we are discussing MO people. Is there any other group to which you assign this “problem?” And while it is true that it isn;t all fine and dandy “my way” either, that’s because it is a part of life for people to suffer heartbreak at one time or another. NOTHING can prevent it 100% of the time, no matter who you are. Aharon Hakohein lost two sons on the same day. Would you doubt that they were tzaddikim or that he was suffering terribly (in spite of remaining silent)? No one is immune from experiencing sadness.
“I’m assuming Oomis believes in the Torah UMada philosophy].”
Correct.
Wolf, I am with you. I say good shabbos to everyone. if they answer me, they answer me if not, not. Hevei makdim kal adam b’sholom.
Lavdavka, I think you have a problem, I am not sure what it is or why you feel the way you do. Most people who are new to a shul, would be DELIGHTED to have people take notice and say hello to them. Do you feel uncomfortable when noticed, like all eyes are on you, making you self-conscious? Then you should not go into any shul other than the tried and true one where you feel familiar. But know this: MOST friendly people WILL say good Shabbos to you. There is no hidden agenda. they are simply being menschen. The proper response is GOOD SHABBOS, said with a smile.
it’s liek giving a woman a compliment on her new dress and having her respond, “Oh, THIS old thing???” Inappropriate reaction to something nice. A simple thank you will do.
The simplist solution to the texting problem in class is to have the students hand in their phones at the beginning of class, and take them back after class.
“Your contradicting yourself here.”
You are right (GASP!), because I was unclear in my statement. I believe strongly that Hashem gave us the laws to follow as HE explained them to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai. I believe His intent/command to us was to keep us holy. I also know He gave permission to our chachomim to enact gedarim, gedarim that THEY believe will ULTIMATELY fulfill His intent (though some of them may take an extreme and overly-cautious view in some regards), by keeping us away from things Hashem did not necessarily asser on us, but which they nonetheless (rightly)may have feared could potentially lead us astray.
It might not have been Hashem’s own intent regarding those issues (i.e. Hashem does not really care if a dress is black or green, or purple), but He gave the chachomim the right to pasken and interpret the halachos with the additional gedarim, to help preserve the holiness of Hashem’s original intention, which is to keep us a holy nation. But there is a wide latitude within the frum continuum, and not all rabbonim view all issues the same way, hence we have shivim panim l’Torah, all of them there to help fulfill Hashem’s intent, and none of them in 100% agreement.
The interesting thing about the dybbuk story, is that the original fable about the dybbuk was about it entering a girl who was very much a tznuah, as I was told the story.
“but in the end, I think being a good Jew and showing that you can be frum and not obnoxious is the only way.”
I am with you on that. Yasher Koach on your involvement with Aish HaTorah, PIT, and Project Yes. You talk the talk AND walk the walk.
BTW, Max well, risking heartbreak is one of the risks we have to take in life, because one just might achieve SIMCHA and not heartbreak. Tzaar is a part of life, unfortunately, but if you never take the step, you risk losing out on joy, too.
“Unfortunately i myself know of a few, that ended up … well lets just say NOT VERY GOOD “
I guess you go to very different events than my kids do.
Max Well – I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think it is very wise for any boy and girl to be making such a strong emotional investment after only one or two dates (at which time, parents who see the potential relationship beginning to develop can make their inquiries). If something comes up at this time that raises red flags, it is very early on. The same red flags can occur in the shidduch method where checking was done prior to going forward with setting the couple up. People who want to hide things are very good at doing so until they can no longer be kept secret. Sometimes, the couple finds these things out AFTER the wedding R”L, when it REALLY is too late, and the result is far worse heartbreak when a GET needs to be given. That can happen to ANYONE, regardless of how they met each other. Just look at the soaring divorce rate among the present generation of young marrieds, some as soon as three months after the wedding.
“you better check your seforim again, and i’m serious. Once a women is married hair has the status of erva. “
Nobody is disputing that fact with you, please re-read what I wrote. Her actual HAIR absolutely has the new status of erva once she is married, just as she has the status of tehora when she goes to the mikvah, something she could not do or be when she was still single.
Nowhere that I am aware of does a mainstream accepted Rov say a married woman must cover her head with something ugly. You are presuming that the reason for the halacha is that ANY hair that looks like her own hair, is ALSO erva and untzniusdig, when it may merely be that the actual hair physically growing from her head is the erva AND NO OTHER HAIR THAT SHE WEARS IS A PROBLEM, because it is not her own natural hair. If that is the case, then you might be mistaken. The reason for covering the hair is that Hashem commands it, and thereby this part of a woman’s body is reserved for her husband’s eyes and no other man. There may be many suppositions regarding reasons for this mitzvah, which is not delineated beferush in the Torah Shebichsav, but at the end of the day, suppositions are not halacha.
As to your analogy of wearing a dress that looks like her body, do you honestly not see a difference between wearing a wig that looks like the hair that is permissible to be seen before marriage, and a dress resembling the female form, most of which is NEVER permissible to be shown where men might be at ANY time? Please, this argument makes no sense at all. Hair is not intrinsically untzniusdig, UNTIL a woman has acquired the status of eishes ish. The female body according to most poskim, except for the lower arms, lower legs, head and upper neck, is ALWAYS untzniusdig if uncovered. It is simply not the same thing at all. Nice try, though.
You cannot always say, I don’t know where it’s written…
YEs you can, and you should. People have the absolute right to know the HALACHIC (not minhag of some, not chumros of some)sources when someone is trying to tell them they are doing something the wrong way. Otherwise, the person who is giving them mussar should stay silent.
BTW, not only does it NOT say in the Torah that a man cannot have more than one wife – The Torah outlines a whole series of halachos exclusively devoted to the proper way to treat the additional wife and her children. It was Rabbeinu Gershom who made the takana to have only one wife (and not to open other people’s mail), and it was for a self-limiting time period, I believe, (and that time has passed, but we nonethless have not reverted back to legally bigamous marriages). Hashem allowed MANY things that we no longer do today because of the takanos of our Gedolim, who were invested with the halachic power to do so. But if we accept that the Torah is perfect as it came from Hashem, it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs, but they obviously saw a need to enact gedarim to preserve His intent.
“Oomis, sorry for being blunt but your reasoning sounds like Reform theology. “
Seriously??? And you once again are exaggerating, which weakens your point. Reform Jews do not believe in covering the hair at all (not their men’s either, with a yarmulke). Stop with the hyperbole, already.
“In addition, there is plenty of heartbreak with your approach as well. “
There is plenty of heartbreak potential in all shidduchim, no matter how they are made. My friend’s Yeshivah bochur who went through the very yeshivish shidduch process including checking out to death, going back and forth through the shadchan until a certain number date and so forth, then having the parents hash out the support issues, ended up with a broken engagement within two days of the vort. Anybody can have a broken heart. It has nothing to do with how they met the person.
Also, I want to address someone’s comment that a MODERN Orthodox person would watch tv on Shabbos. WHAAAAAAAAT!!!!!????????!!!! No one whose hashkafa is Orthodox in any form would do that. If they did that that would make them NOT Orthodox.
I am MO. I cover my hair, wear clothing that covers my elbows, clavicle, and well below my knees even when sitting down. I kept Taharas Hamishpacha all the years that I was privileged to do so, keep Shabbos, keep strictly 100% kosher (I drink Cholov Stam as well as Cholov Yisroel), am mafrishas challah when I bake it, daven every day, learn with my children and go to shiurim every week. I also: watch TV, go to movies, believe it is perfectly ok to speak to men in social settings, especially when my husband is present,try to dress somewhat fashionably (though mny kids think I am hopeless), encourage all my children to be friendly and courteous to people of both genders and look them in the eye when talking to them, and try to get them out of the narrow box that so many people are in when it comes to doing chessed. They will do chessed for ANYONE, not just for a specific type of frum yid. I made sure they went to college and became educated and prepared to work in the secular world, because that is where most of the jobs are. Above all, we try to be non-judgmental, and all though that seems to be a pejorative expression here to some people,I believe that this is one fo the middos that Hashem wants of us.
“I am not indicating whom I was talking about. All I am saying is that in circles where girls and boys freely meet bad things happen. “
And you know this how, exactly? What circles of boys and girls have you moved about in freely? I have myself been in such circles, and my daughters go to singles weekends in such circles, and NOTHING bad ore ven remotely bad has EVER happened, and it is kind of loshon hara for anyone to say differently with no basis, just because their own hashkafa does not hold by this. Yes, SOME mixed groups of kids MIGHT have a problem (they would under any cicrumstance), but modern Yeshivish kids know proper behavior and are very respectful of frum boundaries.
“Also, if you check out the shidduch after an emotional relationship has been established it may be difficult or almost impossible to break even if there is something nefarious in his/her background. “
If there is something nefarious in HIS background, the shidduch is oys,and my daughters themselves would say so. If it is something in his FAMILY background, that is not so glatt. A fine boy should not be punished because he has an uncle who stole money, or his parents are amei haaretz.
You ask a very important and pertinent question. It’s very hard for us to watch our kids make their mistakes, as they inevitably must (as we did before them). But unless it is life threatening or dangerous in some other way to their well-being, parents should let their kids find their own way UNLESS asked for their input. Just as we did not want our own parents interfering, our kids feel the same way. Kids who respect their parents’ wisdom and experience will ask for advice if they need it. It is for THEM to “improve their ways” not for us to do it for them.
It’s so hard to bite our lips and refrain from comment when we see what we “know” is a big mistake on their parts. Even when we might be right (purchasing a house that is a bad deal, making a bad shidduch, buying poorly made furniture, etc.)we have to be very careful how we word our comments, so they will not be resistant to hearing what we have to say.
Lying for the sake of material personal gain or to avoid facing consequences for one’s actions, is assur. Some types of lying to protect someone from embarrassment or for sholom bayis, are permitted (some, but not all). Hashem lied to Avraham about Sara’s actual words when she laughed at being told she would have a baby. She called Avraham “zakein” and Hashem told Avraham she said SHE was too old.
“The hair is suppose to be covered and the shaitlach today defeat the purpose, they are always much prettier than one’s natural hair.”
The halacha is that the hair is supposed to be covered. Nowhere that I have learned does it say that the covering has to be ugly. Your comment pre-supposes that the REASON for covering the hair is to cover up beauty (hence you extrapolate from this that to wear a pretty shaitel defeats the purpose of covering the hair). That would also tend to eliminate pretty hats, pretty scarves/tichels, and anything other than the type of shaitel my Bubby O”H wore in the old days.
The reason for covering the hair is that once the woman is an eishes ish, only her husband is permitted to see her erva and the hair has changed its status to erva as with other parts of her body that are erva, upon marriage. NOT because it is beautiful, not for any other reason than the change of its status to erva. You may as well tell women they cannot wear pretty clothing, also. And you would be out of line to do so.
Dr. Pepper, I think that was a wonderful story – the kind of thing my hubby would have done, too. And I think it was a greater KH that it was done for a non-Jew, who has “who knows what type of thoughts” about Jewish people.
“Wolf, I would never put you in the box because I wouldn’t know where to find a box large enough for an adult to fit in. 😉 “
As we are all destined to end up in a box after 120 years, it behooves us to try to all be more tolerant and accepting of Jews whose hashkofos might differ from our own, than some of us seem to be.
“We don’t have a Tznius crisis. We have a common sense crisis. “
Beautiful.
Helpful,if I am understanding you correctly, you are equating GEZEL with watching tv and reading news magazines. Please. Do you honestly not see the difference? A Yeshivah boy who would commit a gezel, is in no way comparable to a MO boy who watches tv.
“Aside from the tznius aspect, what do you know about them? do you really know about their families, if the parents have shalom bayis, any health issues”
I hate to break this news to you (and btw, thank you SDHN for that cute story and the last sentence of your post 🙂 which was nice) , but there is absolutely nothing untzniusdig in talking to a classmate and ebcoming friends UNLESS one is talking about untzniusdig things. Talking about what you heard in class, going for a cup of coffee together, etc., is a great way to get to know someone in a totally non-stressful and non-threatening way (as opposed to shidduch dating which is FRAUGHT with tension and nervousness for the average person).
Also (and this is even more controversial), as much checking as is done, does not reveal family secrets, health issues, shalom bayis issues, etc. for way too many people. These are things that are often kept hidden, and are not discovered until well after the fact. I know someone whose engagement broke off the week it was made, because something came to light by accident. This was right after the vort.
You get to know a person when you see them in a comfortable environment on a regular basis. If for one second the people who have been conditioned to believe that this is a bad thing, would stop to realize that SO many ehrliche frum learned people came out of that same environment, from shidduchim made in that “den of iniquity” you tend to think college is, they might be able to recognize that EVERYTHING in life has a potential for good or bad. Getting educated is important. Meeting your bashert while doing so, is icing on the (wedding) cake.
“It’s way too long and flouncy and very far from what anyone might call eidel.”
“Anyone” is a very broad term. If you don’t like that wig, by all means do not wear it, and then you will surely be eidel.