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Ditto
“Are there any other ways to meet that Im not aware of?”
Yes, but they are not considered tzniusdig enough by yeshivish standards. I met my husband in the work place. Many girls could do the same – but won’t. Going to college where both genders are in classes AT THE SAME TIME, is another terrific way. My daughter met her incredible husband (my wonderful son-in-law who is another son to me) in college, and in fact, they got to know each other in a beautiful and special way ON THEIR OWN. They are frum kids, who have seichel and adore each other. My son-in-law learns with a chavrusah, holds down a fulltime job, and is a devoted husband and father. He also is an extremely caring and thoughtful person, who opens a car door for ME when I get in and out of his car (as my husband still does after 33 years!).
I think our bnos Yisroel are missing out on the experience they deserve – that of being cherished by their husbands. Boys should be taught the social niceties ALL ALONG in Yeshivah, not just in a chosson shmooze before the wedding. OK, done with my rant – for now.
“Oomis –
You haven’t been around too many places in Eretz Yisroel. “
Not since 1971, sad to say. But when I was there for six months, I was in Beer Sheva, Natanya, Yerushalayim (of course), Bnei Brak, Ramat Gan,Chaifa, Kfar Ata, K’far Vitkin, Petach Tikvah, and Tifrach for Shabbosim, and almost never saw a tie on any frum man. My uncle wore one, but he was a shul rabbi in NY before he made aliyah, and he was used to wearing it.
I guess times have changed, Fabie.
BTW, throwing up repeatedly (whether due to bulimia or lap-band surgery wherein the patient continues to stuff him/herself as before, is extremely dangerous. When one throws up, one does not absorb nutrients from the food (s)he ate, and also repeatedly brings gastric juices/stomach acids up the esophagus and throat, which can cause severe damage over time.
I did go on shidduch dates, only we called them blind dates, and my parents had nothing to do with arranging them. I B”H met my husband on my own when he walked into the place where I worked, on business, and decided he liked the reception girl out front. The rest is history, 33 years, bli ayin hara five kids, and 2 grandkids kein yirbu, later.
I have never learned the halachos related to shaving, nor read the Zohar. But it would seem to me that if there already are halachos in place that discuss the permissible and impermissible ways to shave, that this would seem to indicate (at least to unlearned me) that there in fact is a heter to shave. Kind of like an eruv… ya know how some people absolutely insist that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to utilize an eruv, and yet there is an entire mesechta devoted to exactly the proper way to do so! It’s even called Eruvin. Go figure…
“The real scapegoat in the temple service of Yom Kippur had to be a MALE goat.Hence, the next time you hear women being blamed for all the ills, remind him that a female is Pasul (not valid) for the scapegoat.”
EXCELLENT point!
“talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other” was the cause of the plague against Rabbi Akiba’s students.”
Thank you Josh, for the correction. I actually realized that myself once eventually when I re-read what I wrote. The sinas chinam which caused the churban bayis sheini however, was precipitated by the Kamtza-Bar Kamtza debacle, and the principal characters were male, so I was still in the ball park.
“I think now many parents of girls almost wish their daughters could meet boys on their own. “
If they had, they probably would be married by now with several kids in tow. We have to stop the negative press on meeting guys outside of shidduchim. It worked very well for frum girls 30 years ago.
In E”Y, I almost never saw men wearing ties on shabbos.
“A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.”
There is an interesting issue at play here, namely that of semantics and misuse of language. We see that often in the CR, and elsewhere everytime some refers to an object as a tznius this or that. The word tznius means one thing – modesty. You cannot have a modesty person (i.e. she is not tznius), but you can have an item that is tzanua (she is a tznuah or tzniusDIG person). This happens to be a pet peeve of mine, and I know it is a naarishkeit that this bothers me as much as it does, butthe truth is I see the same thing in the tumah reference. People are not tumah. TUMAH is Tumah. People can be a source for it (if dead), but they are not intrinsically “tumah.” AS the Torah teaches us over and over again, each word has a meaning, and the use of words should always be very clear, precise, and correct. Changing a word or using it grammatically incorrectly can change the meaning of a posuk completely. It also tends to be the product of exaggeration when we see it here, such as in the reference to tumah.
In my opinion, if the parents are both present, though in another room, which is how I was told a beshow is conducted, I would be very self-conscious. This is not for me or for my kids. Good luck to whoever is meeting their future spouses in this way (not being sarcastic, by the way).
“On another thread someone (not myself) said the Chazon Ish said he would almost vomit when he saw a Yid without a beard.” (Helpful said)
“the chazon ish would vomit when he saw bochurim without beards ” (Astrix said)
Saying one feels like ALMOST vomiting is a personal expression of disgust or distaste for something. I almost vomit when I see certain types of people acting drunk and disorderly in public. If that is what the CI said, he was expressing his contempt for the practice of men shaving.
However, that is not the same as saying he actually DID vomit when seeing someone beardless (which is a rather extreme physical reaction). So I could definitely understand the source quoting the CI indicating that he FELT like vomiting when witness to a beardless bochur, but that does not support a quote that he DID in fact, vomit. So which is it, what are the actual words of the sources quoted?
“Considering the fact that the S”A was written in the late 1500s and the Ba’al Shem Tov lived in the 1700s… :)”
I was actually planning on including that little nugget, but to be honest I was not 100% sure of both dates, though I suspected R”YC preceded The B”Shem”T by a couple of centuries. It seems we are on the same page.
Astrix, your comment is indicative of the problem of intolerance in our community. There are PLENTY of truly great Talmidei Chachomim who are clean-shaven. Some cannot grow beards at all, some are uncomfortable with beards, and some make a parnassah in a field in which having a beard would be highly impractical or even unacceptable FOR THEM. In no way does that detract from their learning.
I apologize for giving this mussar, but I do it out of a sincere desire to sensitive you to the words you use and how they can be hurtful to a total stranger. It is wrong for anyone to make a comment such as yours that states that men without beards have no business being in Yeshivos. ANYONE who has a strong desire and geshmak for learning, should be able to do so, no matter WHAT others think, or what his issue might be (remember Hillel Hazakein?). Rabbi Akiva was a total am haaretz when he started, and look what he became. Maybe he had a beard, but he had little else when he began to learn the aleph-beis. Great Torah knowledge can come from anywhere. Try and be a little less judgmental about appearances.
“Far far better to be uninformed of the ”news”, than to chas v’shalom encounter even ONE instance of the terrible pritzus rampant in the newspapers. “
Helpful, no one forces you to read about pritzus. Presumably, you are a frum person who is intelligent enough to recognize a headline that seems inappropriate. So go on to the next page. I don’t read everything in every paper. I am not interested in the Hollywood actresses who might as well be zonas. But I AM interested in knowing which of my politicians are untrustworthy because they cannot even be faithful to their spouses, and which push agendas of toeiva, and which are dedicated to supporting E”Y, and so forth. Most of that does not appear in Jewish papers, for obvious reasons.
When a rabbi is accused of molesting a child, until recent years you would not see such stuff printed in a Jewish paper, either. And unfortunately, R”L this is something we need to know about. We need to know what goyim are saying about us, and hiding our heads in the sand (or Jewish-only papers), prevents us from knowing what they are really thinking. Not everyone is able to catch a hypocrite in the White House Press Corps, while shooting a Jewish video.
B”H I fasted excellently, though I was scared I would not because I was up msot of the night unable to sleep. I also watched the Project Inspire videos, Shearis Haplaitah, The Paper Clips, and was crying the whole time. Certainly was appropriate for the mood of the day. May our next Tisha B’av be a yom tov of simcha.
“which leads me to believe that some people just have it in for women. “
I am already getting that impression every time I read another rant about women being the cause of all evil that happens to Klal Yisroel. The Churban Bayis Sheini was not caused by women, but primarily by talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other, according to what I have been taught all my life. As always, if I am mistaken, please correct me.
“IF the girls or women get into a heated discussion, and get rowdy and that draws attention to them, THEN it CAN BECOME a problem because MEN will look at them. “
Forget the men – if they get into such a heated discussion that they get rowdy – I’M GONNA LOOK AT THEM!!!
“The Shulchan Aruch agrees that a “chassid” should wear both pairs.”
Doesn’t the word chassid used in the Sh”A refer to people who are mekayeim the mitzvos with a measure of chassidus, meaning EXTRA-devotion and are machmirim (as opposed to the way in which we use the term “chassidus” today to refer to people who follow a rebbie such as Bobov, Lubavitch, Satmar, etc.? If so, then it has nothing to do with the latter at all.
“There is some kind of respect when wearing a jacket and hat. It should be worn when talking to Hashem. “
My son is extremely respectful, and most especially so when he davens (he is very machshiv tefila, it is well-known about him). He does not wear a hat. If you truly believe that the hat and jacket are what Hashem wants then perhaps we should just send our hats and jackets to Shul. And please show me a picture depicting the Black hat and suit jacket that our Avos wore when talking to Hashem. We are not on their madreiga, but the idea should be the same for all of us. For someone who always dresses that way, yes it would be a boosha not to do so in Shul. But to state that unilaterally, is wrong.
If a person wants to be informed about what is going on in the world around him, it is necessary to get that information from non-Jewish news sources, most of the time. The Jewish Press (and the like) deals with Jewish-related themes. Not everyone reads Yiddish, even if the Yiddish papers were to carry all news stories.
“It is good to cover with two coverings. “
It is good does not mean the same thing as it is mandatory. I do not believe that question was answered as a p’sak halacha. The loshon is ambiguous. A lot of things might sound “good” but are not actually required. Is there a single poseik who says you may not allow a young man in to daven with a minyan if he has no hat on? If so, who is he and what are his precise words?
“Oomis, I do my best! I wear sandals as long as the weather allows (so April to October)”
LOL, gam ani.
I hate to break it to you, but speaking to a rav does not always help. A rav is not a therapist just because he is qualified to answer halachic shailos. I might ask a rav to recommend a good doctor to me if he knwos of one, but I would never view him as my therapist if I needed one. You don’t go to a cardiologist to do your root canal, though the cardiologist might be brilliant and tops in his field.
Lukshen is a great complex carb and protein, which digests slowly and cheese is a permissible protein to eat during the Nine Days. Most of all, they taste gerat together.
“But anyway, I enjoy shopping for clothing and enjoy talking about my bargains after a (necessary) shopping spree and I don’t see anything wrong since it’s an occasional occurance and I don’t feel like I am a shallow or uninteresting person because of that. “
I am sure that you have lots more to talk about than just your shopping expeditions. The impression you gave was of teenagers.
I find this entire thread to be a bit offensive, btw. Who appointed any of the people in the CR, the outdoors police? Women are not shackled and chained, they most certainly are not WANTON for heaven sakes, for going outside and talking with friends, and all of you who think otherwise have totally lost all sense of reason, in your quest to be tzniusdig. That is not tznius – it is unreasonable expectations.
And another thing, the problem is with the MEN, not the women, so it would seem to be a great deal more fair for the men to stay indoors all day and all night, protecting their eyes from normal sights and sounds, and see how they feel about that restrictive environment after two days.
Women, even more than men, need to get out of their house and talk with other adults, given all the responsibilities they have in the home and with their children. Stop laying this all on the women.
Not a single one of my friends stands outside yakking about how much her clothing xost her. Not my daughters or their friends, either. What kind of shallow and uninteresting people they must be if they have nothing better to discuss with each other.
I have a friend who had two such surgeries. She is now recuperating from other foot surgery as well. IMO, if a doc says to do it, do it. It gets harder with age, and why be in pain when it can be corrected? I knwo it’s easy for me to say this – I don’t have this problem. But people heal better when they are younger, and as we age we tend to develop other problems that make it hard for us to walk at times (my knee is in sore need – pun totally intended – of some fixing up). Talk to more than one doc, get the BEST podiatrist you can for thi person, and weigh all the options. Hatzlacha.
Tehillim have been said. HaMakom Yeracheim alav b’soch sh’ar cholei Yisroel.
I did ask that once, and was told that it can be included in maaser, IF our reason for shopping by the Jew was specifically to give him the parnassah (as opposed to going to his store because it was closer by and we didn’t feel like driving for another fifteen minutes to the cheaper non-Jewish-owned place). It goes to motivation.
I think that most people are truly unaware of the sources for what we take for granted as so-called “frum” dress today. ALL of it derives from the goyim. If we wanted to stay true to the avos and emahos, we would still be wearing long robes and sandals.
“Some frum clothing stores have public dressing rooms, and the way I see it, it sort of defeats the purpose. Have people try on tznius clothing in a non-tznius manner?!”
That point actually makes sense to me. But it has nothing to do with swimming pools, where the accepted norm is to be in bathing suits.
Moshiach could come while people are in the mikvah, too. This is a silly thing for people to be getting worked up over,IMO. A swimming area is specifically for people to be wearing clothing meant for that area. As long as men are nowhere present, there is no justification for trying to make a case against swimwear that covers the essentials, even if it is not to your personal liking. then don’t wear it yourself. But please don’t think you are more proper than the lady who wants a better tan. And btw, I personally am on the conservative side when it comes to these things, and would never wear a two piece. But that is a personal preference, not because I feel they are untzniusdig in front of other women. If another woman likes the look, kol hakavod to her.
If there were a chance that any men might be able to see, then the regular bathing attire would ALSO be inappropriate, including the chassidic type (unless they cover the elbows and below the knees as well, and are not skin tight, of course).
“sjs – note : i didn’t say anything was assur. I said sensitivities. and c’mon use common sense. if you want to swim swim, but you don’t have to swim in a bikini. If you want to tan, tan but you don’t have to lay out in a bathing suit you’ll pardon me. “
Sorry, but if they are just among women and VERY young boys, I don’t see a problem. Why shouldn’t a woman wear a two-piece suit if she wants to swim in one, and why should she not tan in a bathing suit (what was the pardon me for – is there something wrong with the words “bathing suit?”) ? I can understand the idea of needing to be tzniusdig when men are around, but there is no issur on women seeing other women dressed less formally when there are NO men present. And trying to make it somehow appear to be untzniusdig does not make it so.
“Mbachur- yes women have nine sichos and men 1 but they can control themselvs …”
The reason women need to have 9 sichos, is that their husbands don’t listen, the first 8 times!
No one who commits suicide can be thought to be inhis right mind. The instinct for survival is very powerful in all of us, and if R”L someone feels such a sense of hopelessness that he cannot see a way out of that despair, it is clear he is emotionally unwell.
I’m not certain I understand – these women were out by a pool where MEN could see them? There was no privacy area? Why on earth would a frum Bungalow colony situate their pool in such a way? As to the boys – – well, how OLD were those little boys? If under five, then what is your problem? If they were old enough to be bothered by the sight of their mothers in a bathing suit, then they should not be at the pool at ALL (which then begs the problem – what are the moms supposed to do with their SONS, especially if the husbands are in the City?).
Little kids are innocent, and unless a woman is not wearing any type of bathing suit(even if it is only a two piece thing) she is covered. If it is not covering the basics, then maybe there should be some type of rule about appropriate bathing attire posted. I totally agree though that NO women in such a frum colony should be in bathing suits where any men can see them.
I don’t think someone is frum just because they dress modestly. I have seen non-Jews dressing modestly, covered from top of the neck to their ankles, in loose clothing, dark colors,very plainly.
People are frum if they act with honor and dignity when they follow the Torah. It also helps if they are not selective in their observance (like dressing b’tznius, but committing monetary fraud, while clearly identifiably Orthodox Jews).
Sof Davar we cannot pin it on one inyan, but for SURE there is a greater chance for a problem when BOTH parents are not actively involved in their kids’ upbringing, oblivious to the goings-on in his household, and the mom is at work to support them all. A babysitter is not a substitute for parenting. Unless she is their loving Bubby (who already raised HER kids), she is not the person closest to them, who has an achrayus al pi Hashem to raise them.
What a doll that very sensitive girl was to make so many people happy. I hope people likewise marked HER special day in some way.
“someone posted that after a few years the wife gets burnt out and can’t tell her husband she doesn’t want that way of life. i know this is on another tangent but- Hello! A wife should be able and comfortable to communicate with her husband her true and honest feelings!!!”
That would be the ideal situation, BUT – the problem is that girls are indoctrinated in yeshivah and seminary with the idea of men’s fulltime learning as THE ONLY proper way of life. They fear being ostracized by their community if they were to actually express the radical thought that they are burnt out and not happy campers with this deal that really benefits the husband more than anyone else. It surely does not benefit the children they are having each year, with no mommy at home to take care of them. I apologize if I am offending anyone,but I have always felt and always will feel, that a woman’s primary responsibility is to her children, to be physically present for them at home, except in circumstances that are beyond her control, i.e, not having an able-bodies husband who can earn the parnassah.
I’m with Aries.
I know three people who have done the surgery. One kept the weight off, lost about 150 lbs. and is still slim after several years. He had to have severla follow-up surgeries which were basically plastic surgery to remove A LOT of excess flab, which was the result of the suidden drastic weight loss, that the body has no chance to adjust to gradually as with a normal diet for weight loss.
The other two gained back most of their lost weight, and one ended up in emergency surgery because he continued to eat as he did before, and somthing ruptured. Prior to that, he threw up after every meal.
The lap-band can be lifesaving for certain types of people, but make no mistake, this is MAJOR surgery, attendant with all the risks that come with major surgery, i.e. anesthesia reaction, blood clots, emboli,aspiration, heart attack and stroke. Because some of these risks are present in the morbidly obese, the risks may be outweighed by the benefits. I had abdominal surgery last year to remove a giant polyp in my stomach, and that recuperation was not a walk in the park. I cannot imagine anyone going into bariatric surgery lightly. It takes great motivation, and the dertermination to follow doctor’s order IMPLICITLY.
And no reputable doc would ever do such a surgery on someone who was only a size 6 or 8 (when did that become pejorative?). Come on!
“When the one who sees him on the street then assumes he is not a Ben Torah he is not “judging” him “
That is wrong on the part of the person making such a foolish and groundless assumption, not the fault of a person dressed otherwise respectfully.
“but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah. “
Do that and you will GUARANTEE them going off the derech. Make sure you are 100% a tzaddik yourself, before you think to give such mussar to someone in a public palce. YOU should NEVER embarrass anyone in public, unless that person is committing a yehareig v’al yaavor.
Why – you can’t go out for pizza?
Mazel tov, mazel tov! There is a gemach in Far Rockaway. I believe Raizy Adler has it in her house. I think she lives on Broadway or Empire (whatever the street is at that point, one is a continuation of the other)
“There are thousands that dont work and learn all day and financially survive obviously we are talking about such people but some paremts need thrir kids ro be rich and to afford all the things they would want when all the child wants is too learn who gave the parnts the right to have an opion in such a case~! “
The people you describe are not surviving, they are relying upon everyone else (including your and my tax dollars and tzedaka gelt) to pick up their tabs. Whether it is Section 8 or Food Stamps, or Welfare, or Tomchei Shabbos, SOMEONE has to pay for it.
Suppose ALL those other people who are paying for these kids’ expenses suddenly decided they, too, wanted to do nothing all day but sit and learn? What if all the fathers decided collectively, “We paid our dues, we brought up our kids, now it is our turn to relax in the Beis Medrash and enjoy learning all day?” (something which they could not do when they were busy providing for their families).
And what if the mothers who already raised THEIR own children, did NOT want the achrayus of having to commit to raising their grandchildren during the day while their daughters go out to work to support their husbands who don’t want to go out and work for a living, so they can sit and learn? This becomes very old very fast for many young women, who become disillusioned with the whole “eishes chayil” idea. I speak to a lot of young women, several of whom are now divorced, btw, and they all say the same thing: “In seminary, they never told us it would be like THIS!”
“As for a wife putting themselves out a bit for the sake of what their husband’s love, that is a two way street and husbands have to do the same for their wives. Maybe moreso in this type of situation because they should be showing hakaros hatov, gratitude and appreciation for all the time and opportunity their wives gave them while the wives carried their responsibility of being mepharnes the family and allowed them the luxury of learning Torah. “
This was so good, I had to post the entire paragraph. And yes, at some point, choosing to sit and learn when your family is in dire need of your earning a parnassah IS a luxury. You can always learn early in the morning, on your breaks, while commuting by train (not by car, because gas is more expensive), and late at night AFTER you have helped take care of your own kids, spent some real time with them, and reminded your wife of why she wanted to marry you in the first place.
“Not “Judging” has become a password for “leave me alone I can do what I want and you should still think the same of me’.
Real Ahavas Yisroel has nothing to do with not “Judging”, “
Not quite so. Al tadun es chaveircha ad shetagiyah limkomo. The concept of not judging does not mean leave them alone. It means don’t be holier than thou and ASSUME that what you believe and follow is THE only correct path. Many frum Jews who are scrupulous in their adherence to the Torah, do not feel that their observance has to parallel yours. You want to wear only white shirts – fine. But do not negatively judge someone who wears clean and pressed BLUE shabbos shirts, or striped ones, or any other type, as long as he is clean, neat, and presentable l’kovod Shabbos. That is just ONE example.