Forum Replies Created
pba: it depends on what u hope to gain from your time there. to some, its just for the name, and your right, that wouldn’t be such a shame if they don’t get in. for others, it is a big deal. its all relative.
i definitely don’t advocate going to “brand name” schools, i think its silly and immature; however, if someone has real goals and things they hope to gain from a particular institution, then it is disappointing to not be accepted.
at the same time, not getting in to your school of choice does not mean you wont have a great experience elsewhere. sometimes, the second or third choices yield better results! but lets hope that all those who DO go to seminary WILL most definitely remember where they went and what they did there–if they can’t remember even that, then i guess their year wasn’t at all important to them.
popa, i can’t tell if your kidding or not, but your statement is not true. some people who go to seminary have very important years. if used properly, sem years can be potentially life altering.
i am thankful every day for the seminary i went to, and i am not going to forget its impact on my life so quickly.
i would hope that anyone i date can recognize and appreciate the profound way my seminary experience affected my life, and helped me become who i am today.
as for your other comment, no yelling, but it was not at all necessary to slide that in. it just adds fuel to a potentially aggravating reality, as it is.
there are many men that i know are going into nursing. i think the idea has already “caught”. whether a person can make enough money in it–well, that is their own choice and responsibility to work out, with their own factors and life circumstances–there are plenty of people who go into fields that they know will most definitely not pay the bills (think: teaching). nursing is a good profession with a lot of diversity and room to move around, and yes, certainly to advance. if a man wants to earn decent parnassah, and not be in school forever, it seems like a viable, solid option, one that many have already begun to pursue.
“people smart” is the way to go. someone socially savvy knows people-people interactions, a phenomenal skill to have in life. book smarts are great for a job, possibly, but you can’t argue that the social skills necessary are also invaluable. and, as was mentioned, its not the popularity per se that is important, b/c having millions of friends is a statement while a few close and trustworthy friends are what counts; its the social skills that i would find important. chances are, someone with good skills will be successful in numerous relationships.
Masa works with a lot of seminaries and yeshivos, and gives about $1000 to virtually all who apply.
each family had different dynamics, and so therefore, there really isn’t one answer about which is best. in every case, the response will be different.
popcorn and sac:
obviously, singers should also get married. maybe this thread is suggesting that those who want to pursue careers in the music/singing industry should not come out and do so in public until they are married. that way, they have no public name before hand
there is a lot of controversy in the definition of “frum”, and I am not at all prepared to discuss the nuances of such a broad word, especially with someone as well learned and knowledgeable as yourself.
define shomer shabbos for yourself, and use that as your own definition of frum.
theres got to be some ground that we can all safely call frum/shomer shabbos.
I second the motion.
1 day and dunno
ur back and forth discussion is hilarious. sorry 1 day, but on this issue, i see no way that you are gonna win. unless u need to drive for more than 2 hours to get there, it is well known that it takes girls much longer to get ready for dates. got a good laugh out of the competition, tho.
i really think that opening the car door on the way out is not at all necessary. at all. its not even polite, its like, trying too hard. im all for menchlichkeit, chivalry, whatever. i dont think this falls into that category. its no longer a show of etiquette and politeness, its just way over the edge, u know?
asking is very awkward. either do or don’t, but dont ask. once a guy asked me if he should hold the door open for me. very weird! i dont really care if u do or dont, but dont ask me! when i see uncertainty in a man, that is worse for me than if he holds the door open or walks me anywhere. make your decisions and do it. its the way you do it also that either makes it awkward or not. there are ways to be smooth, you know? if you have a bit of class, you’ll pleasantly walk with your date to the door (avoiding all tznius issues this way), wish her a good night, wait till she gets in and leave! dont make it a big deal and dont make it awkward. come on, i can think of more awkward things in dating than this.
i agree with eclipse.
yes, its appreciated. its not a make it or break it. sometimes its a little awkward, its the gesture that counts. the fact that you are getting out of the car, walking her to the steps, even, is also good.
yeah but…….black is slimming……..
(just had to throw that in there)
sac i know ur kidding but there has to be something in between black and fuchsia 😉
oh also riki, why don’t you wait to see where you get in before making your decision? im not implying that you won’t get in to one place, but its often wise to be sure that you have options before setting your heart on something and then its not even shayach.
obnoxious: just one little nit pick:
meohr dorms are not crowded, they moved last year from bayit vegan to malon reich in beit hakerem, and the dorms are now big and spacious. also, they have a little over a hundred girls.
if its really bugging you, make an appointment with a dietitian. if your relatively thin and are just trying to lose those last stubborn pounds, it shouldn’t take so long, as long as you stick to your diet plan seriously, + exercise. its usually between $100-$200, depending on where you live, and its a worthwhile investment, since it saves you all that agmas nefesh, time and energy trying to do it yourself and not really getting anywhere. some even accept insurance.January 23, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm in reply to: Did you go Seminary in Eretz Yisroel? What did you gain from it? #730842
that definition of finishing school would be the most ridiculous definition of seminary i ever heard of.
the aspects of self development that begin in sem are intended to continue throughout life. that is a Jewish concept–that we are continually growing and becoming better. the idea of finishing schools is to produce complete products, that young ladies become “finished” in matters of etiquette etc. that is not the point at all.
the only resemblance i found to sem was that part about finances 🙂January 23, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm in reply to: Did you go Seminary in Eretz Yisroel? What did you gain from it? #730840
read my last paragraph. i clearly said that it is NOT finishing school. at least for those who choose to take what they learned and apply it to the rest of their lives. i guess some might stop their growth process after sem, but that is certainly not the intent.January 23, 2011 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm in reply to: Did you go Seminary in Eretz Yisroel? What did you gain from it? #730838
i posted this here:
a few months ago, but copied and pasted it in this forum again.
apushuteyid: I will try to explain my own experience. its hard for me to capture it in written words, so a) if anything is unclear, i will try to clarify if you need b) i dont know if i can adequately explain my year, so i hope this is sufficient for you.
first, please understand that each person’s experience will be different. it is entirely dependent on the seminary a person went to in discussing what/how they gained. further, not everyone who goes to sem does so for the right purposes, so the responses you get may be varied.
I am a few years out of sem, not on the “straight back from sem” high, so I am not speaking from 9 miles up in the air:
in my own experience, going to EY for seminary was life changing. i am not saying this to be dramatic, (as in: some sem girls are known for saying their sem experience was AMAZING!!!!!!!!) there were a number if contributing factors to my experience:
being in EY is a huge deal: first of all, being away from home, and spending a solid 10 months independently, is a huge tool for growing up. learning coping skills are a must: dorming is not easy, necessarily, and you learn real fast how to get along with others in a forced environment (great middos opp!) it is also tremendously liberating to be away from the environment in which you grew up. even in “open minded” homes, the fact is, that for most girls, for 18 years,sh has been in a stationary setting. moving out into something different gives her the chance to view lifestyles that may be different than what she is used to, weather that be the simplicity of life in EY, or just even stepping back to view her lifestlye in a more objective way (i am NOT discussing here the negative sides to being away from home in a “liberating” environment. thats for a diff. discussion).
also, there is no denying that living in EY for a whole year enables a person to develop a profound connection to it. the fact that there is kedusha, which she is hopefully tapping into, and special mekomos that enhance tefilla (i.e. kosel, etc), literally strengthened my year. living in EY, spending shabbasos in various cities/locations in Yerushalayim, actually seeing all the proverbial chassidim running as the shabbos siren goes off, sensing the neis of rain, etc, all the small things, are massive benefits and contributed in huge ways to my year. i would not have gotten these special advantages anywhere in the states. i think that being in EY at the same time as being in a full time learning environment, gives the dual benefit of really immersing oneself in a positive, growing environment.
my school: i went to a seminary with a whole different style of teaching and learning than i was used to. the approach of the staff, presentation of the classes, open-ness and warmth of the administration, the depth of the material i was learning, were all different than my high school experience. i developed kesharim with some of the teachers, and the things i learned from them individually (not only in the classroom, but also on a personal level) have literally set me on a derech for life. i was given the opportunity to question, and i was forced, in a way, to question myself and my place in everything i was learning. i learned to take the lessons, and apply them directly to my own life. i was forced to take some real close looks at myself and answer tough questions about my identity, my commitment, my relationship to Hashem, as well as to others, and what i want for myself in the future. i remember seeing somewhere on this forum, i think in a thread about baalei teshuvah, that at some point in life, we all need to make a choice of what we want: my turning point, where i actually felt myself in a position of choice making, was in seminary.
i learned what true growth (both personal and in Torah life–or are they one and the same?–means, i was presented with a Torah hashkafa that enabled me to clarify key points in yiddishkeit and learn what that means for myself; i learned so so much about middos, both from my peers and the staff; i was set on a “growing path”, inspired and encouraged to keep growing on my own and to constantly reach higher; i was in an environment where i felt comfortable to ask questions, and received answers that i was satisfied with…..etc. i walked away feeling empowered in my yiddishkeit, and motivated to keep learning and growing in a certain direction. i am still in touch with several teachers: i value these relationships, as i can continue to seek guidance with various aspects of my present life circumstances, and it is really meschazek me to speak with them when i need to.
note: for all you people who will say “im not the type to get close to teachers”: neither was i!! but at a certain point, i needed to swallow my pride, all of it, and get the hadracha that i knew i would need and appreciate for the rest of my life. i am still so thankful that i had this opportunity. i learned how to think for myself, not to live according to assumptions, to develop and strengthen my sense of self….etc.
everyone knows sem is different than hs (even text based ones). hs is for the sake of education (at least thats how mine seemed), while i viewed sem as a school that teaches you how to live. and thats what i did. there is something special to be said about going to school that is round the clock devoted to teaching and inspiring young women how to live b’derech Hatorah, in a way that will bring them happiness and fulfillment, weather that be learned inside from the text, or taken out and explained in class. the uninterrupted flow of the year helped me to stay focused, and it is because i was so far away from my “former” life that i was able to make such great strides in my growth, steps that have stayed with me.
peers: in personally think there is something important to be said of the fact that in sem in EY, there will be a mix of girls from all over the world. its a great opportunity to learn from all different kinds of people, with various backgrounds, and to learn from them. each sem will have a diff crowd, and you can for sure learn from the people in your environment in the states. in my personal experience, my peers and friends contributed tremendously to my year.
seminary is in no way the finishing touch: it is supposed to set a young women in a direction for life, but should in no way be viewed as the end product! if anything, i am more aware now of what i need to do, what i CAN do, and my potential, but i do not think that sem is the be all end all. its just the beginning. i am so so thankful that i had the opportunity to go to sem, and to learn what i did, from the people i learned from. i think i can honestly say that i am a very different person from before/after sem, and thats for the better.
i hope this made sense–if you need me to clarify, i’ll be happy to. hope this helps!
yeah but we are not living in the alter heim. maybe we should also drive horses, they also did that in the alter heim. nowadays there are so many factors to consider, you can’t even compare that world and how they did things–one minor example being school. girls weren’t in high school in the alter heim, here they are. just an example. besides, whoever said that how they did everything in the alter heim is the right way? not all the customs are Torah m’sinai, some where technicalities, just they way things were.
another example is eating potatoes as karpas on pesach. thats not the ideal vegetable to eat, but many families do, because “thats how they did it in the heim”. well, why did they do it? thats the vegetable they could afford/thats what was available, etc.
we dont need to translate everything from the heim into our lives today. sure, there are many of us who have ancestors who married between the ages of 12-18, older than that was downright old. but that doesnt mean that today that would be appropriate.
post sem, yeah of course other things are MORE important, that doesn’t mean this doesn’t count for some. besides, you can’t really judge people who are taller than you who want someone at least as tall as them–what if you were redt a guy who was 4’8″? (compared to ur 5′) yeah…….thats what its like for a girl who if 5’10 to be redt a guy who is 5’7″. the end of the world? no. a certain comfort level? probably.
its not that jeans are indicative of religious level. obviously, mike, if someone were to bring an argument about the fabric of clothing as an indicator of frumkeit level (aside from shaatnez, of course)that would be silly. the reason why this is even a discussion is because the association and affiliation of jeans (i personally think skirts are different here than pants, but thats my own opinion, others might disagree)is what concerns some in the yeshiva world. “yeshivish” people associate with the black and white “penguin” look crowd–its not that wearing that uniform makes them more frum, but it definitely provides affiliation. someone who identifies as yeshivish, yet wears jeans, is making a statement. its not a problem with the jeans; people just need to understand that they are choosing to deviate from what is considred normal by yeshivish standards.
also, i think some people will say that jeans is not a refined look, so they try to stay away. meaning, most “chashuv” rabbonim would not wear jeans, even when doing physical labor. if someone chooses to wear jeans from the practical standpoint (as wolf claims) that is also fine, but they just need to realize that they may look to others as wearing a more casual, coarse look than may be accepted by the yeshivish crowd.
its all a matter of affiliation. its not inherently wrong. the association that comes with it is what is confusing to some.
can we please please please stick to height and not weight, people?? i appreciate all your responses, but lets leave the weight discussion for the weight threadSSS–this is different. thanks!
I just want to say that your posts always are right on the mark. thanks you!
i like BP Totty’s model:
fill up a plate as follows: 50% veggies, 25% carb, 25% protein.
drink lots of water.
what about with a doctor you never met?
i always wonder what to do: it gets really complicated in explanation, b/c how come the doctor can touch you, but not shake hands? they dont get it….what do you do?
dunno, ok, i hear your point. sorry you missed mine about the whole society thing. i guess we’re disagreeing on two different points.
somehow, i find your logic skewed. your attitude seems to be “so what if its a rotten approach, so what if my values are off, its important to me, so i am going to chase it anyway”.
yeah, no wonder people chase themselves in circles, they are searching for perfection, something non-existent. but if thats whats important to you, by all means, keep looking, and I wish you hatzlacha in your search.
dunno, u wrote: “And girls should by all means demand the gorgeous football player if that’s what they want”
yeah, but dont you get it? even if they want it, they WONT get it, at least not as understandably as the guys who demand barbies will get barbies. and also, if she isnt exceptionally pretty, she for sure can’t say she only wants the best looking boys, whereas it seems that any guy has the right to demand miss model, even if he himself looks like a shlamazel.
dunno, in essence, yes, that is what i am saying. maybe you look like a movie star, i dont know, but when i think of what so so many girls put themselves through to look a certain way just because our frum, middos-dik, learning, boys demand drop dead gorgeous barbies, i am sickened at what our society has come to and our standards have become.
i am not saying they should look for less. i am saying they need to look for different. i think a person has every right to demand for themselves sensitive, caring and compassionate, giving, friendly, warm, intelligent, responsible, capable spouses. they can even demand a spouse they will find attractive. BUT. when i see a system that is so off, a reality that is completely unnatural, then yes, i take issue with that. i see no reason why girls need to strive to meet impossible standards. and i am not one to say that men dont need to be attracted to their wives (as per the argument in another thread); i think that men absolutely MUST find the women they date attractive. but the emphasis that is placed on physicality, the demand that comes with it, the expectation, is totally out of sync with the rest of kind of person a ben Torah is! it doesnt make sense.
girls must strive to always look put together, pretty, feminine, and of course, to be healthy. i dont know if anyone will argue with that. but i cannot agree with you that just because the guys want it, that girls need to starve themselves, get plastic surgery, wear inches of makeup, buy multiple wardrobes, etc. if thats the case, then all girls should be allowed to demand tall, built, strong, good looking football players. which means that all those yeshiva guys need to get off the bench fast and start pumping iron big time. and grow several inches. ok? thats what our value system has come to. physical, physical, physical.
i want it. i will demand it. i will get it.
to me, this “hashkafa” sounds strangely familiar to the culture we try to differentiate from. to be better than. to have deeper values than.
this is the issue people complain about when they blame the boys. its a big issue, not just “unfair” to the girls, as you wrote. its way, way, more than that. if you want to reduce relationships to the physical elements, that would be your choice, but it is wrong to create a system where everyone else is dragged through the dirt with you.
you are missing the point that boys are being crazily unrealistic and that is generating major problems in girls lives, not only in regard to shidduchim. everyone is entitled to want certain things in a spouse; when those “certain things” are totally unnatural, we as a society need to assess what is going wrong here. since the boys seem to be at the front of this offense, that is why “all shidduchim threads blame boys”. they appear to be the ones responsible. if i am wrong, and they are not the ones guilty of creating a system that wont work for too many girls, then i ask mechilla from them all.
b/c the main issue is not the guys getting what they want. the main problem is the encouragement of values that are the antithesis of what they allegedly stand for. you are right, its no ones business what individuals do in their own life, but when it kind of becomes an acceptable “movement”, thats when society protests.
the erosion of basic values is what I find wrong, especially when it seems like “bnei Torah” are the ones calling the shots. when you hear that the guys want looks, money, yichus, talent, blah blah blah in addition to everything else (middos, chesed, etc)it seems that b/c of their status as shtark learners, they can demand whatever they want.
its also everyone’s business because of the pressure this puts on girls in our society, to always look like models, dressed to kill, say they want only learning boys (pressure gets transferred to daddy to foot the kollel bill), get into to the top seminaries, etc….
again, what each individual does is their business. when it becomes a societal thing, its a big deal. it is NOT ok to have boys demand perfection, just because they can get away with it.
i would not appreciate going on a train on the first date. maybe 3rd or so, but initially, no. i find the whole story a bit odd.
mewho: equating smoking with plastic tablecloths is foolish. they are not in the same category in regard to shidduchim at all.
I dont think this is a matter of people not agreeing that it is a sensitive situation, nor is it any implication that people aren’t caring individuals. the point that YOU are missing is that even if it is a sensitive circumstance, a person still should go ahead and date someone who they think is appropriate for them.
this does not mean they should not act with utmost caution and sensitivity to their friend–by all means, they should! but they should still go out with whomever they want.
there are ways to do things carefully, with sensitivity and kindness; just because you disagree with the premise does not mean that the people who you are arguing with are uncaring individuals.
bp totty, i know this is not the point and is off topic, but 10-12 grand? ur kidding. try 16-19 grand for the 2011-2012 year, thats more like it………. (not to mention other expenses)
dunno, i partially disagree. i wouldnt want to be playing mini golf (or almost anything else) with a total stranger. its only fun if you make it fun, meaning, you are enjoying the company. if you have no clue who the person is, that is awkward.
your ideals are beautiful; your perception of reality is delusional.
The actual problem is in the way you phrased your question: “is there anything wrong?” Based on this terminology, you are going to receive a variety of answers from people who have different views of what the right thing to do is. Some people feel that not only is this not wrong, it is the responsible thing to do, and a boy who doesn’t go to school is doing something wrong by not taking steps to provide for his family. There are those who might say that yes, a yeshiva bochur going to college (even at night) is wrong, because college is no place for a yeshiva boy, and it is taking him away from his learning at this most important stage of his life…etc. All these responses also contribute to the relativity of what a “good shidduch” is. after all, “good” is an extremely relative term, and the point of reference of the responders is diverse, so only you can really answer what this means for you. Perhaps your query needs adjustment: what are the pros and cons of a learning boy going to school at night, and how will this impact his shidduch options; how does the yeshiva community view boys going to school at night; etc. These are valid questions to ask the klall, because it is not a matter of right/wrong, but of opinion, and people can describe their choice and how that worked (or didn’t work) for them.
This question will be personal to each individual and his life circumstances. It’s hard enough to make this decision as it is in “real” actual life, so when the question is posed hypothetically in a public forum, I am questioning if there is an actual answer.
Understand what I’m saying?
if you think its not tzniyus, you can open the door, and walk around to your own seat then–don’t watch her get in. that way, its the gesture and etiquette that matters, not that she can’t open and close the door on her own.
there is nothing wrong with asking you to move your continuous conversation to a new thread so that the original topic(s) can still be discussed without disrupting your date plans.
sorry if you were offended by my tone.
there is no need for me to take any chill pills.
ok, this is getting ridiculous. can every single shidduchim thread stop being hijacked by “the 3 musketeers”????? start a thread called “group cr date” and walk in circles about whose gonna date who over there. i feel like the same conversation is being repeated in numerous threads. sry to sound so annoyed, but like, c’mon. go out already and then fill us in–all this talk about it is a bit much.
people who are smug and “holier than thou”. can’t stand it.
sam i am, i hope you are joking, because that is nauseating.
count me in. great idea.