Forum Replies Created
“A social liberal may not necessarily be libertarian.”
True, but the category was a social liberal who believes in tax cuts and deregulation.
sifsei chachmim: I know several people voting for Biden for these reasons (if not necessarily sharing your political forecast).
Back in the 90’s many in the frum world stood with evangelicals who proclaimed that a president’s personal morality mattered. Now many in the frum world stand with evangelicals who say it doesn’t matter. Some in the frum world still agree with the 90’s version.
You’re repeating why you think the medical establishment is wrong about hcq (or more precisely, why some experts believe other experts are wrong about hcq) but none of that is proof of a conspiracy. If you have proof, please share it.
Since you’ve been mentioning Dr Harvey risch’s, you must know that a number of his colleagues signed a letter opposing his views on hcq on scientific grounds.
Values, you’re the one making this about politics. If you have evidence to support your wild conspiracy theories, please share it. The fact that most in the scientific community do not believe hcq is a miracle drug is not proof of a conspiracy.
“Defending trumps honor? Who cares about his “honor”, some of us are just marveling at how far people can stretch and twist to make even Gds hand come from the white house.”
Shocking how this comes back to defending trump’s honor.
Decency – it seems silly to disagree about facts, but I have to say again that from what I observed in numerous places, compliance in the orthodox community, including parts of Midwood, through the summer and most of September, was mostly non-existent.
To be clear, Cuomo has been very heavy handed about this. I’m also a little suspicious about improving numbers so quickly after drawing zone maps — I don’t see how clusters fade in less than a week. You would think that with effective measures infection rates to continue to rise for a bit before falling. In any event, none of that excuses the lack of compliance and lack of derech eretz.
torahvalues – There have been a many single minded hcq+zinc posts by people who clearly are not scientists, but have a political agenda, and they tend to push crazy conspiracy theories and misinformation. Your post was not the most egregious, so my apologies if my post went too far, although I still think that advocating for drug on a non-medical forum against medical consensus is inappropriate, even if you append a disclaimer.
My questions re your financial interest in hcq were obviously sarcastic. I’m sure politics not money is behind various people’s incessant hcq infomercials, but that just means hcq promoters are politicizing medicine. Granted they claim that hcq deniers are motivated by anti trump animus, but at the end of the day the vast majority of medical professionals don’t practice partisan medicine, so it is actually hcq promoters who are injecting politics and conspiracy theories into what under most other circumstances are things sorted out by doctors not pundits.
When a lay person tries to convince you of of something by getting into the statistics and academic literature, it’s kind of like a Jews4J nut on the subway trying to educate you by showing you passages in Isaiah.
I’m more likely to get a handle on this by knowing your financial interest in promoting hydroxychloroquine. Do you get paid by the post, the word, or are you on commission? If none, and your posts are acts of pure altruism, please explain why you (and other hydroxychloroquine promoters should feel free to chime in) believe that it is appropriate to direct your PSAs to non-expert consumers who routinely rely on medical professionals for advice. I like to understand what my doctor says, and it’s important to be an informed, but I don’t read medical journals and I don’t take drugs based on the recommendations from random strangers just as I don’t get my interpretations of Isaiah from brainwashed strangers on midtown train platforms. I have no idea what any of the gibberish you post means. I have no idea if you know what your gibberish means, although when considering the totality of circumstances I suspect not.
As an ethical matter, if you want to proselytize for a specific drug, you should take it to the experts, not YWN.
Thank you for you time.
…and there it is.
…wait for it…
Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel of America, an Orthodox umbrella group, said Mr. Tischler was a fringe figure who had “made an idiot of himself.”
“I don’t think anybody really knew him or had heard of him until he decided to turn himself into the wonderful spokesman he thinks he is,” Rabbi Zwiebel said. “This guy is supposed to be a community leader? Please. It is an embarrassment.”
Trump is walking around promising (or threatening) to kiss all of the men and the beautiful women at his rallies (evidently no beauty standard for the men). I’ll reserve judgment on how much he has recovered. Mike pence has resisted invoking the 25th amendment but kissing men may be the tipping point.
Decency, I don’t know where you live, but here in the red zone, from around a week after shavuous until just before Yom Kippur, the majority of frum Jews acted like they were only dimly aware that a pandemic was happening somewhere else. If it wasn’t exactly back to normal, that was only because it was harder to book a hall for a 600 person wedding.
If you’re going to claim that the frum community has in fact complied with the law all along then you must be saying that there has been an resurgence of infections in spite of such compliance. If that is true, then how does it makes sense for the governor to anything but order further restrictions. That in a nutshell was the self defeating argument submitted to a federal judge last week. But of course none of it was true. There are a few shuls that comply, including at least one of the plaintiff shuls, but those are exceptions and we all know it. Despite that, we’ll attack the governor for becoming an overnight anti semite instead of following health guidelines.
Perhaps if the approach had been to acknowledge lax compliance with existing laws and presented a plan going forward, the state would have given it a shot. For all I know, agudah tried it. But the kicker is that so many of us are so sold on ridiculous conspiracy theories, on the notion of our personal rights obliterating any moral responsibility, that we can’t even commit to following laws. From what I observed, compliance ticked up just before Yom Kippur but had already waned just after first days of yom tov, even before the governor announced plans about zones.
The fact that yeshivas are closed and tinokos shel beis rabbah are sitting at home or struggling to learn on zoom, is a direct result of our community’s misplaced priorities and our willingness to embrace politics and conspiracy theories over derech eretz and common sense.
“best way to achieve that goal is to be extra careful in both medical and political aspects”
Right. If we really thought yeshivas were the most important thing, we would have been doing it all along instead of foolishly insisting on the our rights to go maskless during a global pandemic or blithely ignoring our responsibility to everyone else.
Azoiy, that other comment was by me, and I was being satirical.
Yes, Dora the explorer is a kids cartoon about an illegal immigrant who gets separated from her parents at the border. She is trying to get to her grandmothers house before ICE catches her and puts her in a detention center. Sad actually.
Good luck. 83% of the frum world gets its clues from fox news hosts and presidential twitter rants — fight to the death for personal freedom and have zero regard for social responsibility. We cry about tinokos shel beis rabban until we have to wear a mask so tinokos shel beis rabban can continue going to cheder. Draw the line right there. My kids will stay home and watch dora the explorer until their eyes fall out if need be but I will not wear a mask or skip simchas torah shul kiddush just because cuomo said so.
If the Sikh doctors get an exemption, then the policy is not absolute. Find out how you can qualify for an exemption. If your beard is a minhag not a grooming choice, then perhaps your rav can say that in a letter. I would probably avoid using the word “customary” because it sounds more wishy washy to me than most minhagim actually are. Tradition is probably a better word (imagine if Tevye sang about “Customs! Customs!”) but also be clear that there are different strains within Orthodox Judaism, or otherwise you’ll have to explain why some other orthodox men are clean shaven. I know nothing about why Sikhs don’t shave, but I can’t imagine it’s anything more compelling than a minhag or tradition.
“So is number of infected per 100,000.”
I’m not saying that number isn’t important and you often see tracked in the media. But you’re only reporting results of people actually tested, so it’s less useful in trying to get an idea of how widespread the virus is if the number of tests vary.
Take extreme examples where testing rates are more useful than positives per population:
Area A: 100,000 random tests with 1,000 positives
Area B: 1,000 random tests with 1,000 positives
Or the following:
Day one: 10,000 random tests with 100 positive.
Day two: 5,000 random tests with 50 positive.
In these examples, if you looked only at positive tests per population, you’d get a very distorted view of what’s actually happening.
A populist vs a libertarian. I’ll take the libertarian (aka B) because the country can bounce back from incompetence but corruption sticks around. Wake me up when it’s 2024.
rationally – I was trying to show you the absurdity of focusing on test positivity results in a vacuum, but I think you went down the slippery slope and stayed there. If only 229 people had been tested and 229 had been positive, then test positivity is 100%, but obviously that doesn’t mean all 8 million people have covid. That means we aren’t testing enough. That’s exactly where we were in March. We were able to test people in hospitals, but we had very little data on what was happening outside the hospitals. If you remember, it was a stressful time. I don’t know why anyone would voluntarily go back there.
As regards the morality of your scheme – if you did succeed in kicking sand in the eyes of health officials trying to monitor outbreaks, then they can’t update guidelines and people won’t know when to be vigilant, so you will be responsible for illness and possibly deaths. You argued that that doesn’t make you a rodef. I disagree. I’m not sure what Sweden has to do with anything. If you deliberately frustrate efforts to put out fires in NY, it doesn’t matter what the fire department in Stockholm does.
It’s not hypocrisy when everyone knows you’re exercising raw political power with a flimsy excuse. It’s disingenuous, but not really hypocritical. If Democrats controlled the senate right now, does anyone really think they would hold hearings, regardless of what happened in 2016. If Republicans had said then that they are not holding hearings on garland because they didn’t have to, and said now they were confirming Barrett because they could, they wouldn’t be hypocritical, they’d just be more honest.
As an aside, I seriously wonder if republicans will be happy with Barrett in 10 yrs, or even 6 weeks.
Rationally realistic: morality aside, if the only people who get tested are those taken to the hospital with covid, then the positivity rate will be 100%. Brilliant strategy. Obviously no one will think every person in 11219 has covid, but what exactly has been accomplished.
Syag, on the other hand certain professions like health care workers, and perhaps yellow zone schools, are required to test frequently, resulting in repeated negatives. The point is not that positivity rate is a perfect metric, but that it helps spot trends. If an area was at 1% and has steadily increased to 6% over the course of several weeks, and neighboring areas have stayed at 1%, then it’s a concern.
Daasyochid, because even though it has its limitations, it is a useful way to monitor trends. Anyone who advocates trying to fool health officials should realize that a) it probably wouldn’t work, and b) if it did, you’d have blood on your hands. There’s a more reliable and more moral way to improve health statistics. Follow health guidelines.
If the positivity rate fell, but positive cases and hospitalizations rose, don’t you think the health dept would adjust the criteria for what constitutes a problematic area?
If you’re serious about trying to mess with public health data, then you want sick people to get tested many times over using disguises and aliases if necessary. This way the cases and the positivity rate skyrocket with a comparatively small percentage of hospitalizations, leading to the mistaken conclusion that the virus is now weaker than it really is. If more people die as a result, well then, as they say, it is what it is.
Reb Eliezer, as quoted in the article:
“If the patient was already unhealthy even before he contracted the coronavirus and maybe he wasn’t even completely in his right mind, we have a chiyuv to daven for him despite the fact that he didn’t wear a mask.”
Maybe Rav Zilberstein is saying that Trump wasn’t in his right mind before getting sick.
Ben Levi, I understood what you wrote. However you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that one Midrash cancels out another. That’s not how Midrashim work. The Midrash you cited is followed by a number of commentators. Other commentators follow the plain meaning of the Pasuk. See Radak for example including both as alternate understandings, as he often does.
The Midrash I quoted above from Kohelet rabbah has nothing to do with with the Midrash you quoted. These are different drashos, with different messages. Midrashim do not have to be consistent, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Pirkei derebi Eliezer doesn’t shlug up kohelet rabbah. They offer alternate explanations. As to the question what the purpose of physical work would be, there are several ways to understand the Torah’s purpose of telling us about gan eden. If you want pashtus, the netziv writes that although gan eden did not need work as it was created in a perfect state, it did need cultivation as time went by. Kohelet rabbah seems to be understanding gan eden as a microcosm of the entire world as it transitions from the trees of gan eden to all of creation. Also as I clarified above, the Midrash doesn’t explicitly read it into לעבדה ולשמרה. That was my addition. If you don’t like it, I won’t be insulted.
All of this is interesting, but to your original point, chazal do indeed mention the obligation to protect the natural world.
Reb Eliezer: “We are not suppose to throw a rock in a well or step on a piece of bread because we are denying the good He bestowed on us. Similarly by destroying the environment we are denying His good.”
This fits well in the language of the midrash. The warning against destroying the world is prefaced by the statement “רְאֵה מַעֲשַׂי כַּמָּה נָאִים וּמְשֻׁבָּחִין הֵן, וְכָל מַה שֶּׁבָּרָאתִי בִּשְׁבִילְךָ בָּרָאתִי”. The natural world was not accidental or incidental; it was created specifically for Adam’s benefit, and therefore, Adam was given the responsibility of protecting it.
To clarify, the words לעבדה ולשמרה are interpreted by some commentaries to refer to spiritual work. Others interpret it to refer to physical work and guarding. The midrash (Kohelet Rabbah) I quoted above does not reference the words לעבדה ולשמרה, but it clearly states that Hashem warned Adam about destroying the world. If you want to explain that as spiritual in line with commentaries on Bereishis, go right ahead if that fits with shmuessen, but you need to first acknowledge the plain meaning of the midrash. See Etz Yosef who understands the midrash as referring to the destruction of the physical creation.
You said in passing that nothing you have learnt includes environmentalism, so I thought you would appreciate having the midrash pointed out to you. If you knew it but disregarded and/or reinterpreted it to fit your politics, then as I said, I’m not the orthodox police, but don’t act like you are either.
My point is that there are references in words of Chazal that support the notion that humans are responsible for the environment and that Hashem does not promise to intervene to clean up our mess if we destroy the world.
Speaking of orthodox judaism, I’m not the orthodox police, but reinterpreting the plain meaning of a midrash to suit your politics is not usually considered orthodox.
“We are witnessing an unprecedented chillul Hashem…”
The entire city, if not the whole country, is looking at the orthodox community and wondering why and how it justifies exempting itself from emergency rules of general applicability designed to protect all people during a pandemic. Because we are dealing with a community whose outlook on life is dictated by the Torah, the assumption is that this widespread breach of derech eretz and disregard for other people lies in some interpretation of the Torah that escapes everyone else. If that is not a chillul Hashem, then what is.
“There are plenty of videos from people with degrees and experience in these areas who say that masks don’t help.”
Are there specific reputable sources for this? You’re not the first one to reference numerous unnamed supposed experts, but somehow it never seems to get more specific than that.
רְאֵה אֶת מַעֲשֵׂה הָאֱלֹקים כִּי מִי יוּכַל לְתַקֵּן אֵת אֲשֶׁר עִוְּתוֹ (קהלת ז, י״ג) , בְּשָׁעָה שֶׁבָּרָא הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא אֶת אָדָם הָרִאשׁוֹן, נְטָלוֹ וְהֶחֱזִירוֹ עַל כָּל אִילָנֵי גַּן עֵדֶן, וְאָמַר לוֹ, רְאֵה מַעֲשַׂי כַּמָּה נָאִים וּמְשֻׁבָּחִין הֵן, וְכָל מַה שֶּׁבָּרָאתִי בִּשְׁבִילְךָ בָּרָאתִי, תֵּן דַּעְתְּךָ שֶׁלֹא תְקַלְקֵל וְתַחֲרִיב אֶת עוֹלָמִי, שֶׁאִם קִלְקַלְתָּ אֵין מִי שֶׁיְתַקֵּן אַחֲרֶיךָ
And yet this statement of chazal interprets it with respect to Adam’s responsibility to the physical world. You can pick and choose which statements of chazal you disregard, but don’t say it isn’t there.
( I tend to hold the view that the Orthodox Judaism is pretty specific about why the world was created and what our purpose here is and nothing that I have learnt yet includes environmentalism).
Midrash says that Hashem showed Adam all of the trees in Gan Eden, told him all this beauty was created for Adam, and warned him to not destroy His world because if he did no one would repair it after him.
I was responding to reform rabbi who posted a reckless statement falsely attributed to the cdc.
Fake news. The cdc website says:
“CDC recommends that you wear masks in public settings around people who don’t live in your household and when you can’t stay 6 feet away from others. Masks help stop the spread of COVID-19 to others.”
“ Screaming about masks? It’s not proven if they fully work or if they do at all. Forsure the cloth ones.”
Can someone please point me to a legitimate medical source that concludes that masks don’t work. This kind of misinformation is dangerous.
Fred trump had a middle name.
“If masks are what saves lives is [Fauci] not then directly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths?”
If he knowingly downplayed masks to win an election or to improve his public image or some other selfish reason, the answer is clearly yes.
If he downplayed masks because presymptomatic and asymptomatic transmission was not understood (as I think he has explained), then no. Remember we were and still are learning about the virus.
If he knowingly downplayed masks because there was a shortage of PPE and he wanted to minimize PPE hoarding so doctors and nurses could get it, then it gets morally ambiguous. I don’t think it would be accurate to say he’s responsible for tens of thousands of death, because the justification is that by allowing PPE to flow to hospitals he saved more lives; on the other hand, it is in a sense playing god. Whether you would agree it was the correct moral decision, I don’t think you can say unequivocally that he was directly responsible for those deaths.
Aside for the hypotheticals about what he knew and why health officials did not recommend wearing masks at the time, how many people asking this question would have worn masks at the time? How many wear them now?
Let’s turn the question around. If we take it as fact that masks do save lives, and if someone does not wear a mask and infects someone and causes their death, is that person not responsible for the death? Of course, no one can prove in any given situation which person caused the infection or if a mask would have helped, so we’re not going to convene a beis din and make a capital case out of this. However, that person should at least wake up to the sofeik that they may infect and kill someone.
Secondly, from a community wide perspective, health officials say it is a vadai that people will get sick if the community does not adhere to masks and social distancing. If you’re not convinced, look around. So while we can’t say with certainty that one particular person is responsible for someone else’s death, we can say the community is responsible for the deaths in the community. And if you’re not convinced it’s a vadai, then it’s at worst a sofeik and people should act at least as stringently as they would act if there was a sofeik chillul shabbos deoraysa. If you want to argue it’s not even a sofeik, I’m all ears. My phone is lighting up with tehillim names; we all know people who are critically ill, and some of us know people who have died in the last few weeks.
I’d like to hear the argument that it is a mere coincidence that neighborhoods next to frum neighborhoods that were better about masks and social distancing are not seeing the same spikes. If anything, based on the logic prevailing in mid-June that the frum world has antibodies and herd immunity, those neighborhoods should see more cases, not fewer.
Yserbius – I agree with that. “Stand by” means either “show support” or more ominously in this context “await further commands,” but I don’t think Trump meant to say either. He wasn’t helped by his pivot to insisting that the problem is antifa because it made it sound like he was telling his troops to be on stand by, but again, he didn’t seem to mean it that way. Truth is, “stand down” is not the appropriate phrase either. It implies that proud boys are your thugs that you can command. He should have been asked to condemn them and disavow their support, not give them orders to stand down.
The real problem is that Trump craves adulation and has shown time and again that he cannot bring himself to disavow the most odious supporters. It takes a lot of blowback and follow up lies until he can utter the words, which then comes across like a little kid being forced to say sorry when not at all sorry. In the meantime, his kkk and white supremacist supporters see all of the delays and hesitancy as proof that he is on their side, which by the way is on him. As with everything Trump, it’s hard to say for sure when he’s intentional, opportunistic, ego-driven, or just plain lucky, or all of the above. I would bet he doesn’t know either. He’s not exactly the self reflective kind.
Health – overturning roe v wade or marriage equality will mean very little in liberal states. Overturning roe v wade will mean states may restrict or criminalize abortions, not that they must. The Supreme Court doesn’t actually ban abortions. That would still be up to the states. In fact, if restrictions imposed by conservatives states are upheld, liberal states will have an influx of people coming from other states for abortions. As for same sex marriage, there can be some federal ramifications, but states like New York and California aren’t going to ban gay marriage no matter what the Supreme Court says. If a state like Arkansas won’t allow gay marriage, then gay people from Arkansas will go to New York or California to get married.
Interesting variant on the nusach in aleinu is “לתכן עולם” which would give it a very different meaning from the way the phrase is used to promote social causes.
Attention one One (1):
Re: learning reading comprehension
I am trying, although I suspect I will never fully comprehend your compositional gems. I have several questions.
1) You now appear to assume that no frum democrats attend blm rallies. This is false. My grandmother is a frum blm rally attender. She does not talk to my mother-in-law for obvious reasons.
2) I can’t understand the words “less in population than.” Is it English?
3) I fail to see how “you” in “if you can attend a blm rally” meant “you who are not frum democrats” when the post was addressed to frum democrats (or frum democrat apologists, whatever that means). If you were addressing non-frum democrats, you probably should have posted your question on reddit or something.
4) What does religious observance have to do with the perceived disconnect between protests and mail in voting?
“Vote for Biden if you hate Jews and Blacks.”
Is Trump’s base in play?
Reading my comment above (#1906358) , I feel compelled to correct the record. My mother in law is not 100. I have no idea if she has a facebook account but she does comment on ywn and I don’t know if she knows who I am or that lied about her age and maga hat. I hope not. She is a democrat. The only thing we agree on is that trump is repulsive. Thanks to Trump we have his repulsiveness to talk about instead of alternating between glaring at each other across the shabbos table and screaming.October 1, 2020 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm in reply to: Joe Biden seemed to be using some sort of earpiece during the debate #1906352
What would be the point of a wire? A wire usually refers to a microphone or recording device on the body, which obviously wouldn’t help Biden. He supposedly needed to get help not secretly transmit audio of a live debate. If you’re speculating that the wire was related to some kind of receiver on his body that relayed someone’s voice to a hidden earpiece, that sounds like 1980’s radio shack era technology. Also, if Biden was in fact wearing some kind of hidden device with a wire, wouldn’t someone think to put it under his shirt rather than over the front of his shirt where it could be seen if his jacket shifted. And also, a campaign with 500m on hand would probably spend the additional $20 to get the wireless version of whatever the device was.
Attention One (1):
You seem to be under the impression that all democrats have attended at least One (1) BLM rally. I am here to inform you that although said impression is excusable, it is very much mistaken. My One Hundred (100) year old mother-in-law is a democrat and has not been out of her house in Six (6) months. Is it your opinion that she can vote by mail without thereby succumbing to imputations of hypocrisy? Also, she’s been on facebook for Six (6) months straight and this once proud democrat has taken to wearing a maga hat over shaitel. I mention it because I want to know if you think filling in the Trump bubble takes care of all of the fraud concerns.
Since Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky supposedly endorsed trump before the frum second wave, we don’t actually know if he still holds of the endorsement. Specifically, his basis was hakaras hatov, but does that still stand considering how trump misled us? Unless Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky reendorses trump, then we have to fall back on the halachic principle of safek derabanan lekula (even assuming that a rav’s political endorsement is binding in halacha).