Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…

The Gemara in the middle of the last perek of Baba Kama, approx. daf 114-115, when dealing with gezel/to’us akum, is clear that causing a goy to think badly of a Yid is a chillul Hashem. Obviously what they glean from watching us does count.

I don’t comment anymore but couldn’t help myself.

Just want to clarify this for y’all. Marriage is not the final product, the cookies are.

Okay, I’ll break my rule one more time, only because rso called me out on it. Answer: I was laying a trap. They didn’t say it, they wouldn’t say it, they’ll never say it, and it should be obvious to all why. See my sign off post.

@CS- The rebbe’s hanhogo towards the frierdiker rebbe after death is extremely worrisome- his sichas that concern him are scary, and one cannot but wonder if he wasn’t setting it up so he’d be related to like that, too.

Here you go folks, this is who CS would like us to base our understanding of rational chabad on. Mods, this is not a link, I left out .html at the end. Enjoy folks. Like I said, CS just keeps digging herself in deeper and deeper, this is insane. And don’t cry foul that I’m quoting beis moshiach. You supplied the name, I just found his speech.

link sends to main site so removed
beismoshiachmagazine .org rabbi-reuven-wolf-my-fateful decision

And to chossid, and the others, if you cannot see why my posts above are accurate, this sure should clear up any doubt.

@username- Your taynos are not relevant at all to this conversation. (Besides the fact that the answers are simple) My questions about lubavitch are on ikrei emunah, not laxities in practice. Shaving and proclaiming a mortal man to be running the world aren’t exactly questions on the same footing. At best, you honestly have questions, as irrelevant as they may be, posed to discredit the other side of the argument, and attempting to win a debate with character assassination, which doesn’t work anyway. At worst, you’re purposely diverting or attempting to hijack the conversation, because you don’t have answers, but if you can make us look bad, you don’t have to answer either way.

As an answer to this:

“IS A SIGN OF WHAT THE MOVEMENT BELIEVES IN.

My point is that there’s no real “movement”. I’ll give you a Mashal. Take Breslov. There are Na Nachs and there are Yerushalmim. Is it a Yerushalmi Breslover’s fault that Na Nachs exist?

(WE ALREADY SAID THAT WERE LEAVING LITVAKS OUT OF THIS)

You see, I’ll understand if a guy from Meah Shearim, who is in Kollel learning all day and keeping all the Chumros feels that by becoming Lubavitch he’ll go down in Ruchniyus. I’ll argue with him over it, but I’ll understand.

What I don’t understand is when people who keep less than we do complain how “Lubavitch isn’t frum!!!!” Yes, we may not be as sheltered, and Tznius happens to be an issue. But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers. There are tons of people, who are more Maikil than Lubavitch in pretty much everything except for Zman Tefilla and possible Tznius (it depends against which Lubavitchers your comparing to).”

It’s important for you to understand for full disclosure, that the world at large (certainly the litvishe posters here) do/does not regard you as another chassidus, one that happens to have drastically different hanhagos than other chassidusin and happens to missionize other jews to join their sect. Would that be the case, the whole “anti-lubavitch” movement would never have started. That’s why your argument above will never be taken seriously. It’s not like another chassidus that may be meikil in some areas and more machmir in others, (or have wacky nanachs that we think are out of their minds) prompting a discussion as to whether we’d be frummer if we were like you or not. Frumkeit is not the nature of this discussion.

We have serious questions, and more accurately, very valid suspicions, about some practices/shittos your chassidus holds, that no other chassidusin subscribe to. These concerns include basics in emunah and hashkafa. There is some sort of sinister agenda, chassidus-wide, to try and “educate” frum, often frummer, yidden about alternate systems of belief. Our gedolim have come out in great force against lubavitch, and honestly, other lubavitch posters throughout the course of this thread have only served to shore up and strengthen those suspicions. They have proved proficient at either outright lying to avoid a question, or doublethinking/doublespeaking, and misleading posters as to the true nature of their shittos to make their view more appealing to the uneducated. So please, answer the very serious questions, without obscuring the conversation with stupid taynos on litvaks, or step aside and let someone else (profess to) do so.

@CS- Please cite where belzers write to their interred Rebbe to answer their prayers. Notice how your post trying to discredit my arguments didn’t say “No you moron, we’re not asking the rebbe to answer our tefillos, Hashem answers tefillos, Rebbes are, at most, a meilitz yosher”. Because you wouldn’t say that, would you, because that’s exactly what you are doing, and you know it. If you can show me any belzer that davens to his Rebbe for the yeshua, waits for an answer/yeshua from his not living Rebbe, I’ll be maskim. Disclaimer: Not gonna happen, cuz they don’t daven to dead people, except to be a meilitz yosher, which you already admitted, by omission, that you do. Which is A”Z. The only answer you might try to give is betten/mimutza michaber, which we already discussed is predicated on the rebbe’s sicha of atzmuso areingishtelt in a guf, which we’ve already concluded is kefira (as in goes against the Rambam’s ikrim), so that’s a bad road to go down again.

@Chossid- Please answer, why Chabad desired to open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, the frummest chareidist community in the world, where there is no kirv to be done and no one to be mekarev, leading me to logically conclude that chabad’s desire was to spread chabad’s belief system within that community, and that’s scary and weird, because what exactly are they trying to do to those people? Also, please explain the video where Cunin (again, one of, if not THE most influential chabadsker on the west coast) proclaims unambiguously that the rebbe runs the world. A)What’s that supposed to mean? B) Why would no one in Chabad be mocheh or seek to explain what he possibly could’ve meant? Also, please explain what Moshe Kotlarsky, one of the bigwigs of the shluchim kinnos meant when he said “may the Rebbe look upon our gathering favorably, his presence is here with us now and may he grant our requests” at the annual kinus (quote from chabadtalk.com, seems the quote was edited out of the kinus CD, wonder why)?

Put these concerns to bed, and I’ll chill out. Real answers. No doublespeak. No evasion. And honestly, I won’t even bother with the rebbe being moshiach now (CS tried skirting that until it became obvious by omission as well, not surprised), let’s just straighten out the basics.

@Hoffinger- Classic chabad evasion: tough question= sinas chinom. Gotta love it.

I don’t hate you, I want you to answer basic questions. Can you do that for me?

@oyyoyyoy- I appreciate the compliment. Yes, I know people from the US don’t have a firm grasp on this issue. I’d say 95% of american yungerleit in israel don’t understand it either. You’d need to hear an hour long shiur on the subject to have a clue what’s really going on. It is not a one issue machlokes. It’s about revisionist history, with the eitzniks rewriting the past to justify their present. You can see how small this group really is with the number of seats they won on the city council, and you can see how deranged their current leadership is when they told the ostensibly more yeshivish/kanoishe oilam to vote for Berkovitch (a mechalel shabbos who desired the same for Yerushalayim ir hakodesh) in the last election. Some prominent eitz rabbonim (and I mean very very vocal, well known american born rabbonim who lead american kehillos) actually backed away from eitz when their leadership made that statement. I know that from over the pond it seems like a fight about reporting to the draft office, but it runs much deeper, and is more insidious than you think. Have you ever, ever heard R chaim come out about politics prior to this issue flaring up? Have you ever heard the chashuvste RYs in EY being so vocal, so forward and outspoken on any other issue? There’s a reason why their response to eitz is to remind them of what really happened in klal yisroel over the last twenty odd years- it’s because eitz’s whole worldview is based on utter falsehood.

The ‘only side’ comment was in reference to the mashal- in Moshe vs. Korach, there weren’t two valid sides.

Ah, see Joe, you are an eitznik, I told you. Will you admit yet that lehovin is a eitz propaganda paper? It’s a minute amount of yidden in IL, (1 seat on Jlem city council vs. 6 to degel and 3 to gimmel), and has just begun in the US because of these esteemed RYs. Don’t make it like it’s a “huge portion” of the torah world. That’s vaiter propaganda. I suppose a “huge portion” of the medical world holds that vaccines are dangerous?

Festivus for the rest of us.

@CS said”Gut Yom Tov!! I think if you understand more about what the Sefer Tanya Kadisha is, it will definitely help. To do that, I’ll write up a moiradike story a heard from a shiur in preparation for yud tes Kislev, maybe later tonight after I write to the Rebbe. Lshana toiva belimud Hachassidus uvdarchei Hachassidus to all 🙂”

And i laughed out loud. You go write to the Rebbe. Did you know he is dead? Are you aware that attempting to communicate with dead people is assur? Do you care? Is he not dead? Have you decided to show your true colors now that all bets are off and you’ve dug yourself in deep enough that anyone who reads this thread can quickly discern that your hashkafos (and that’s being generous) are utterly insane? Holy moley.

A”Z mamash tekef umiyad mamash. Didn’t you see the video of Cunin from LA (one of, if not THE, most powerful chabadsker on the west coast) proclaiming unambiguously that the Rebbe runs the world? Oh, ya missed that one?

Oh please CS, don’t equate me with this newcomer loonbag. That’s insulting. You may not like my posts, but every single one was on point, even if they made you uncomfortable, and even if I didn’t couch them in politically correct language to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. But I’m not a nutto like your friend. I already told you, I think you’ve unconsciously done enough to harm your own position, you’ve shown what chabad is all about, and so my posts aren’t really accomplishing any more; you’re just too good at this for your own good. And for some reason Syag and others keep digging, like they’ll find some new info or rationalizations on the subject. Enjoy life down that rabbit hole.

You guys are making a very misinformed hanocho. There is no such idea as free speech being a right, like an actual right, outside of the US where it’s a part of the constitution. In europe, the UK, canada, south africa,etc. there is no such “right” enshrined by law. So this whole thread is dumb, because who gave them the right to take a knee where freedom of speech/expression doesn’t exist?

@CS- They’re one and the same. You know that, too, you just know that admitting it publicly will send your intended converts running.

@Cs- “…And step 3: the ultimate (which sechel didn’t address) everyone, while remaining in their own kreiz, with their own unique minhagim and chumros etc, should unite under the Rebbe/ the Rebbe’s horaos and if this would happen for sure moshiach would be here, no doubt about it….”

This is not “step 3” this is “objective 3”, which just confirms everything I and others have been saying- your ultimate goal is to convert everyone to lubavitch (call it what you want- it’s semantics), not about frumkeit or anything else. Thanks

I reread Cs’s explaining away and can’t get over how consistently illogical it is. I’m honestly floored you could write that reply. can someone please pick it apart; im far too lazy to address each crazy point.

Ya, not that I do this wrong but worth noting, where you put the emphasis on ve’uhavtuh in K”S will dictate whether you’re yotzei acc. to R Shloime Miller. I think R Belsky held that it’s obviously better to do it correctly but not me’akev, though I don’t understand why, as mis-emphasizing changes the tense from future to past.

Hi DY, nice to see you.

Anyone seriously debating whether chabad’s tznius standards are on the level of chassidish/Litvish BY standards is out to lunch.

warning bells ….”More likely”….as in the Rashba was “more likely” bigger in spiritual stature than the chabadsker rebbe. You can’t make this stuff up.

It seems this thread has come to a crashing and crushing close. There are no more ambiguities (except for whether CS thinks the rebbe is moshiach), and the lubavitch approach to the rest of us is pretty clear at this point. Also clear, is why they b”H won’t make any headway with the rest of us; when your doctrine hinges on beliefs and klehring whether the avos and Moshe Rabbeinu were beinonim or tzadikim of the Tanya, and comparing them to the rebbe who was ostensibly the only tzaddik of the tanya to have lived since, well, the tanya, you’re not gonna get very far. And thank G-d for that.

BAM! and @RSo lays it down

Guys, how are you not bored yet? Do you not see you will not get anywhere with her?

I don’t get it, CS: a)Yes b) No. One word. Nu??

Lol, this is classic chabad skirting the issue. She will not, under any circumstances, state the the rebbe is not moshiach. Because she believes he is. but she knows that we’ll think she’s nuts for confirming that belief, so she won’t admit it. As far as R’ Shach goes, he was viewed universally in the livish oilam hayeshivos as the manhig hador. Literally the chad bedoro. No one, again, in the litvishe oilam hatorah, would dispute this. He was seen as the hemshach of our mesorah from the Gaon and his talmidim. This is common knowledge. So CS sidelining him and saying, “wellllll, if you were his talmid, then maybe, you know” is also a joke. Every.Single.Litvishe.Yeshivamahn. Sees himself as a talmid/follower/mekabel from R Shach. And yes, the issues he raised, plus the issues that have been discussed here at length, are the reasons why 99% of the litvishe velt (not baalebatim) do not hold of lubavitch and the rebbe.