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“@ujm The people who you affectionately call “LWMO” made up the vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” for decades.”
Yseribus: This is, historically, factually absolutely incorrect. The vast majority of Jews who consider themselves “Orthodox” during, let’s say, Rav Moshe’s time were most certainly not what is now called LWMO. They were closer to what’s now RWMO. They never had the slightest thought of supporting women “rabbis”, women egalitarian “minyan”, supporting homosexuals, etc. Au contraire, they were very opposed to all that and considered that garbage to be completely non-Orthodox, and only to be found in the Reform and Conservative movements.
“and most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox… So I don’t see the existence of “LWMO” as an issue that needs to be addressed, since it seems to be resolving itself without outside “help”…”
That’s a tragedy, not something that is “resolving itself”. What could be more tragic than a formerly Orthodox family, even if the extent of their Orthodoxy was Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha, now dropping the little Orthodoxy that they did maintain and no longer identifying or practicing any Orthodox beliefs and practices such as Shabbos, Kosher and Taharas Hamishpacha?
The very reason that, as you said, “most of their children grow up and either drop the pretense of being Orthodox” is directly because they were led to believe by their MO leaderships that all the rest of the Taryag Mitzvos were optional, and only practiced by the “fanatics” known as Chareidim.
They hardly have any converts in their membership. You must be mistaking their BTs, who used to be secular born Jews that joined them.
“If you can’t afford a chasunah, you should not be in shidduchim.”
This is a purely gentile viewpoint that is the antithesis of Torah Judaism, where Halacha mandates marriage even for the poor who are unable to afford a wedding affair.
Rocky: It is a Halachic obligation to give tzedaka to a person so that he can live the life he’s accustomed to. A rich man who lost his fortune must be given enough tzedaka so that he can once again live in the wealthy style he is accustomed to. In Eretz Yisroel, since they’re accustomed to giving a Chasan an apartment, it is obligatory to give them tzedaka so that they can do so.
Yseribus: Teaching women Gemara in a curriculum kneged halacha is also an actual direct aveira.
RSRH was the polar antithesis of MO.
Yseribus: The LWMO, who are mechallel almost everything in the Torah are a large majority of the MO population, whereas the RWMO are a distinct minority of the MO population. That’s certainly the case with the national/international MO communities. But even within YU the left-wing significantly outnumbers the religious right-wing.
CTL: You just solved the dilemma posed in the title of this thread. Thank you!
Dorah: If all you could afford was a wedding in your Shul’s social hall catered by the local butcher on Main Street, that’s the Chasuna you would provide for your child? If the only way you could “upgrade” from that de minimis wedding was to accept donations from other Yidden, you’d refuse it and simply have your wedding in the Shul basement?
“I can get behind increased government oversight on diet/exercise etc”
Next the government can get into the shidduch scene and have their shadchanim making shidduchim.
Pekak: RJBS was called by his rabbinic colleagues in YU as “JB” both directly when speaking to him and when referring to him.
Yseribus: It’s directly from Rav Moshe himself; nothing second hand. I cited above exactly where to find Rav Moshe’s speech published as well as where to find actual audio recordings of Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron denouncing going to college.
Coffee Addict: Try posting again with a slight rewording, removing whatever you think was inflammatory.
Yseribus: How much does a synthetic fur streimel cost and how much does a cubic zirconium ring cost?
Avira, no, but I remember his posts. I don’t think I made more than five posts there. I was more a reader than a participant (although I did have an occasion or two to email and speak to Rabbi Shapiro by phone.)
Avira, did you by any chance post on this forum as Matisyohu28, over ten years ago? And, perhaps, under a similar name on Rabbi Shapiro’s site?
Mod: I’m wondering whether my pending new thread from last night (not the one that posted already) is pending because of it’s length it still needs to be reviewed or if there’s a concern regarding a choice of words somewhere in it? If it is the latter, I’d appreciate if I could resubmit it with a modification, if necessary, as it took considerable time to compose the write up and I believe the overall sentiment expressed in it was written in a very respectful manner. Thank you
Yseribus: Is Rav Shach Litvish enough for you? First of all, before WWII, in Europe, virtually none of the Litvish Yeshivos had any serious secular studies program. All that is American. Secondly, Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances. Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.
But it is definitely looked upon not as a l’chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.
Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America – particularly in Lakewood – that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.
Is Rav Moshe and Rav Ahron Litvish enough for you? Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac’s (yes, this was said in the “olden days”), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college.
Syag, we’re missing your valuable input. Please share a few thoughts on the issues at hand.
Mazal Tov, LF!!!
How’s it any different than other Gedolim having very strong words against the actions of other Gedolim? i.e. In Ponovezh, Chaim Berlin, Rav Yaakov Emden and Rav Yonosan Eybeschutz, Rambam, etc.
The OPs point was that diamond engagement rings came directly from the goyish world. Of course give expensive presents, etc. But this particular “thing to do” is a foreign import.
Bravo! I second the OP.
Next thing you know some buffoon will have the old lady arrested because she held the hand of a teenager who helped her cross the street. Or have an adult arrested for having held a child’s hand to cross the street to their home after getting off the bus. Or having a neighbor arrested for giving a child a light congratulatory pat on the back for graduating elementary school.
None of the feeble-minded who opined that there’s some kind of issue for an adult to lightly put his hand on the back of shirt of the shoulder of a teenager for the twenty seconds they walk through a very crowded hallway, addressed Menachem’s very pertinent point regarding whether you call 911 at every Chasuna you attend and at every Shul during Simchas Torah when adults put their hand on the back of a child or, the much worse crime of, holding a child’s hand in the dancing circles.
Every wedding and every Simchas Torah should be seeing dozens of men being led out in handcuffs.
akuperma has good data to share about this issue.
DaMoshe: Did you hear any other bubbe maisas that you want to share?
Recorded, as in a 1950s era video or audio?
No one has the right to tell any family that the wtfe has to get a job in addition to the husband’s job. Period. The normal default expected behavior of humans from the beginning of time until recent history has been the husband works and the wife runs the home and takes care of the children. That the world has gone beserk and started sending mothers out of the home is absolutely no reason to try to force Jewish women, Chasidish or otherwise, to do so. End of discussion. That is the Torah way. Halacha is full of admonitions that women should not leave the home other than the few times it is unavoidable. That others are following the Torah and Halacha on an issue where you feel you had to change b’dieved to do otherwise, is no excuse to try to force anyone else to take up your heter. And, no, entitlement programs do not require a two income family to qualify.
So with the primary reason for the disparity in income between Torah Jews and the national average being a one income family versus a two income family (especially two full time working adults), that disproves the lie that a lack of college or other community education decisions contribute to a notably lower income than average public school graduates in New York.
Furthermore, much like the Park Slope hippie with his archeology and anthropology degree not earning him any especially high income, a decision he consciously made since archeology and anthropology is his passion, something he’s willing to take a significant pay cut compared to other educational choices he had, something that is absolutely his right to choose. You are no one to tell anyone else to become a doctor, lawyer or whatever else you had a cholem about. And, yes, even with that decision should that goy have ten children no one else has any right whatsoever to complain. And on that same token, any Jew, Chasidish, Yeshivish or Litvish, has that same right to choose a lower earning parnassa to trade off for more family time, more Torah time, more educational pursuits or whatever else he rationals his decision on what career and incoming earning potential he decides.
If the government doesn’t want to give welfare to families with “too many children” who pursued a career in a lower earning bracket, the state legislature can disqualify such families from snap and Medicaid. But should they ever have the chutzpah to propose such legislation, the African-American community will riot in America’s cities, since that would bankrupt all their welfare queens, who are the real and most numerous beneficiaries of the entitlement programs, rather than any demographic of Jews.
The New York Post got wind of the “story” from the so-called “frum” websites. The rest of the media got wind of it from the Post.
Shimon: A far better idea would be for you to put your head in a Gemora, for once.
Yseribus: That’s median household income, not median individual income. The artisian hippie from Park Slope lives with his girlfriend, who also is earning an income, a dog and maybe one child. Their combined income for a tiny family puts them squarely in the middle class. The Satmar guy earns more than either him or his girlfriend, but not both combined. And his Rebbetzin is running a nursery in her home — of her own ten kids, which she isn’t formally paid for.
So, sure, the goy has a higher combined household income with their 1.2 children, but the guy in KJ has a higher individual income, which isn’t reflected in the household income stats you refer to.