yankel berel

@somejew

somejew to yb:

…regarding the Avnei Nezer and his point about “not haluche” is a language also used by Satmar Rebbe in Vayoel Moshe to describe the sugya.
But, that doesn’t mean that those gedolimm where – chas v’shulem – kofer in Toras Moshe, rather it means something different than you think …
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who mentions bichlal ‘kofer betorat moshe here ?

how does that come in to the picture at all ?

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not halacha means that – it does not have the weight of halacha.

chazal say a person should not get angry
chazal also say one should not 4 amot in reshut harabim

both are chazal

one is halacha
one is not

big difference between the two

the oaths according to avnei nezer and rambam and sh’a and tur and m’b
are like the getting angry – not like the carrying 4 amot.

to point that out is kfira ????

come on … and on top of that …
to be accused of not posting in good faith ???

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@somejew

re the post on a different thread, you referred to as an answer

I will copy and paste it here.

====================================================
again, the shavuos are generally about our obligation to live under non-jewish rule and the issur to rebel against their government and its rulership. This includes, as stated by the Maharal and others, even at threat of death.

There is a separate obligation to save one’s life in the face of a random non-Jew or non-Jews who are being violent. This would have nothing to do with the Three Shevios.

Up to here, is everything clear? – because this is basic basics of thinking ….
=======================================================

You originally prohibited any organized fighting in any circumstance, even when it saves lives , because of the oaths

so I brought the sh’a hilch shabbat based on gm eruvin mandating organised fighting to save lives

organised fighting is mandated even when in our own locality there is no possibility for pikuach nefesh
nevertheless when the land will be noche lehikavesh

meaning the land behind our locality will be conquered easier and quicker if our city would fall
and in the places behind us there might be pikuach nefesh

one is mandated to organize fighters to defend our locality
because of the pikuach nefesh of the places behind us.

which proves that bimkom p/n organized fighting is mandated

it does not state in gemara eiruvin
nor in the sh’a hilch shabbat
any other precondition

i.e. that organised fighting to save people from p/n , would need the approval of the relevant authorities.

No, it says plainly – do it. Fight . Save the people .
I there would be a caveat , SHULHAN ARUCH or one of the other commentators would have said : STOP , only if this is bir’shut hamelech

why did not anyone say one word ????
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Al korchach that p/n is doche anything which is not part of the hamurot.
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have not heard anything from somjew katan or ujm yet

@non political

yes he did

parshat shoftim 5751

I still remember this from when it happened

the big problem is the verification …

at the time kfar habad and associated publications claimed that his “prophesy” that no one will be harmed in EY and that EY is the safest place in the world qualifies as an accomplished verification.

everyone knows now that this was incorrect.

according to rambam hilchot yesodei hatora

which incidentally they themselves were pointing to

when [it suited him/them]

he made the original claim

according to the very same rambam

in the very same halachot

an aspiring navi who predicts the future and

is off by even one small detail

is established as a vadai navi sheker

and therefore is hayav mitah bebeit din

i think that any further discussion of him being a navi

is totally superfluous
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@katan

katan permitted organized self defense in galut to save lives

but he rejected IDF because it is a shmad army

accordingly , what happens to bal tshuva who is a previous member of IDF and is now called to serve

he is not impressionable as he is older now

and knows he can withstand the tests how terrible they may be

q is

should he abstain from enlisting bichlal even though he is needed for defensive operations only [eg Arrow anti missile unit]
and he knows objectively that there is no replacement for him

or should he enlist because of pikuach nefesh
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could you answer this question ?

with the reasons .

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think we deserve to get clarity in to the exact positions of the commenters …
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@somejew

Looked in shulhan aruch and tur think YD siman 156

as clear as day

only 3 averot are yehareig ve’al yaavor

ALL OTHERS ARE YAAVOR VEAL YEHAREIG

including the so called oaths

I must say that you are getting me angry

you appear as someone who values torah above all

and when it comes to this extremely important halachic issue of pikuach nefesh

you suddenly depart in a very radical way from centuries established practice

of paskaning first and foremost with the established halacha sefarim like tur and shulhan aruch

and revert to agada sefarim AGAINST shulhan aruch !?!
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@somejew
…. Dismantling the Zionist state, may it happen soon, does not mean anything more that passing on control to any other self-identifying non-Jewish governance. This could be the USA, the UN, Jordan, or Hamas. I’m not intending to push my own opinions on what is preferred, I am only intending to point out the obvious reality that if the residents of Israel all wanted to give up their state, there are many relatively peaceful pathways to ….

—

Absolute hogwash .
I have not heard bigger shtuyot than this comment in a long time.

USA ?

How many soldiers are the US willing to sacrifice for the big ‘merit’ to govern one of the most volatile places on earth ?

I remember how one or two attacks by hezbollah got the mighty US soldiers packing from Lebanon in 1983.

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The UN ?

they were meant to guarantee the demilitarisation of Sinai after 1956. Right ?

how much resistance did they put up when threatened by Nasser ?

they folded without a shot being fired .

—

Jordan ?

how many of the 37 shuls left in the jewish quarter of the old city in 1948 were still intact when the Jews returned after 1967 ?

how many jewish residents still lived in the old city during that period ?

do you really think Jordan would be able to suppress Hamas from their stated aim to drive out every Jew who cannot prove that his ancestors lived in Palestine before 1917 ?

—
Last but least – the most spectacular of all of your stupid claims

Hamas ?

you are putting the fox literally in charge of the hen house.

any further comment is totally superfluous

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schar va’onesh is only AFTER we do all possible to avert pikuach nefesh

never heard hatsalah saying anything like your krumme svarot.
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@somejew

for the sake of honesty , you and your compatriots ujm and katan should stop quoting a so called ” universal all poskim agreement that the shavu’ot are bnding lahalacha ” .

Dismissing AVNEI NEZER who is basing himself on omission of yad hachazaka, tur and shulhan aruch , is dishonest.

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@somejew

somejew to yb :

You push the zionist propaganda that the Arab world want to mass murder all Jews while conveniently ignoring the clear truth that this fear is a direct explicit result of Zionist political activity in the region, turning our traditional friends and supporters in the Muslim world into our enemies. I can’t know what ‘s in the hearts of those non-Jewish nations, but the words they say align with historical precedence that they only have issue with zionists, not (per se) Jews.

===

Your claims here seem to come from another planet.

Ask the Druze about the reliability of what comes out of Arab Leaders mouths.

Ask the Alawites .

Ask the Kurds.

Ask the Yazidi’s.

Ask the xtians .

The Hamas supporters in Europe claim that the jews will have to choose between the coffin and suitcase.

Thats what they say now.

And what will happen if there [for some silly technical reason] is no option of suitcase ?

And what will the average Arab do when his leader is overthrown and there is no obvious replacement ?

Who do you speak to then ?

===

The real reason you do not take any of this into account is like I wrote:

According to you the whole existence of IDF is yehareig ve’al yaavor, meaning that even if [chvsh] millions of innocents would be barbarically slaughtered , you still would close down the IDF .

So thats why you have the liberty to come up with total nonsensical non solutions .

You anyway ARE NOT CARRYING THE RESPONSIBILTY OF PIKUACH NEFESH on your shoulders .

This is crystal clear from your whole approach .

And on top of it, we heard it from your own mouth , claiming to rely on some [still] source less agadic maharal , contradicting clear poskim clearly traced back to gemara without holek , and poskim without any preconditions.

So this whole discussion , according to you, is anyway totally irrelevant !

—

Summary :

one side is attempting to have real responsible pikuach nefesh discussion based on cold reality as it is now

while

the other side has bekalut da’at dismissed the pikuach nefesh side of it and therefore comes up with clear flippant theories [supposedly based on long gone history] on which the originator himself would not dream to rely on if it would pertain to his very own little daughter’s health and wellbeing.

—

somejew has not yet answered how A fits with B …
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@somejew

examples of yb’s supposed kefira , according to somejew:

======================================================
1] You’ve construed a false binary between a Zionist state and another Holocaust …
[somejew to yb]
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That’s not kefira .
Even according to you , that somehow there exists , a realistic totally safe path for the medina to be dismantled . Even if that would have been a correct description of reality, even then.
My portrayal is at most, nothing more than a misread of the reality in front of us.

Kfira, man dechar shemei !

==================================================

2] You’ve rejected the axioms of schar vonesh on it’s face in thinking that the actions of the IDF exclusively decide life and death for the millions of people living within that evil state’s borders, and not their gzar din from Rosh Hashuneh.
[somejew to yb]
—

Sheker .

I never rejected s’char va’onesh in any way, shape or form.

I merely put into practise centuries old halachik practise. When dealing with a choleh and the best way of treating him , we have to establish the metsi’ut first. Same with pidyon shevuyim .

We have to decide on who the best surgeon is AL PI DERECH HATEVAH, which way of treatment is the most mutslach AL PI DERECH HATEVAH , which approach to take with the kidnapping party AL PI DERECH HATEVAH .

That is our very grave responsibilty when confronted with a pikuach nefesh choleh r’l.

And if we are light about it, flippant about it, then we are shofech damim.

One cannot ask – it is already decreed anyway from rosh hashana , so what’s the big deal which surgeon we will hire.

No , it is a big deal !

Rav Yisrael Salanter famously explained that bitachon is not warranted when another jew needs your help, for sure not bimkom pikuach nefesh.

Rather one should do EVERYTHING one can .

No contradiction whatsoever to schar va’onesh.
Or to gzera mirosh hashana.
Or to ani mamin sheboreh yitbarach shemo boreh umanhig et kol habru’im.

If that is correct for one choleh , why is this not correct for millions of them ?

IDF , or any jew , or any other collective or organisation of Jews [eg hatsole shomrim] are obligated to act as if there would not be any notion of bitochon

After one does EVERYTHING POSSIBLE and there is a result , we know and believe that the result is totally min hashamayim. Here we use schar va’onesh.
And the gzera mirosh hashana.
And ani mamin sheboreh yitbarach shemo , oseh et kol hama’asim, boreh umanhig et kol habru’im.

But before, when we have to act , we act AL PI DERECH HATEVAH !

Proof is in the pudding . Puk Chazi – how does hatsole act ?
Exactly the Same with pikuach nefesh in our Holy Land.

Are hatsole kofrim ??? Has veshalom. But they have to act AL PI DERECH HATEVAH and
do everything humanly possible, as if it depends on them.

Exactly the Same with pikuach nefesh in our Holy Land.
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No kfira whatsoever in my words .

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@somejew
… nor does my allegiance mean only thing, rather the only thing that should matter is the Holy Torah we have from Sinai.
[somejew to yb]
—
Could not agree more.
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@katan .

This is very important.

here katan broke ranks with somejew.

if we are to take katan at face value [no reason not to]

katan agrees here that pikuach nefesh supersedes any understanding of the three oaths

so [even if] organizing an army to defend the yoshvei EY would contravene the oaths , nevertheless bimkom pikuach nefesh , this is mandated

katan argues that the IDF is not a good fit, because its involvement with the three hamurot.

meaning avoda zara giluy arayot and shfihut damim.

—

the Q is now . the mere fact that the IDF is osek in those three , is that enough to stop a frum jew’s involvement in the IDF

or do we need to consider the candidate, the frum jew’s own participation in the three hamurot ?
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meaning : if the frum jew himself will not participate in the three hamurot , but other people within that army are,

is that ground to prohibit the frum jew’s participation in the IDF to save lives ?
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Where is somejew ?

Is he reconsidering his allegiance ?
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@katan

@somejew

@ujm

am still waiting for yr answer[s]

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Nu

Mr Katan ???
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@katan

am still waiting for yr answer
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reminder

according to katan somejew and ujm

oaths are “undisputed halacha”

Are they UNDISPUTED ?????????

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@ qwerty

even if the leader of habad would miraculously reappear I would not follow him

neither should any believing yid.

there is a whole parasha in the torah addressing this phenomenon specifically

what happens when the navi sheker gives an ot or makes a mofet ?

moshe rabenu our thue and klal yisrael wide true prophet forewarned us

ki menasseh hashem etchem

HKBH is testing us

are we truly following the torah or not

so definitely , no

even if habad’s leader will pretend to duplicate j’s alleged moftim

or pretend to copy shabtai tzvi’s rumored supernatural wonders

we , the collective yidden all over the globe , spanning all our generations , both present and future

will NOT bow down and will not be duped .

==
ani maamin be’emunah sheleima … shezot hatora lo tehei muchlefet .

the following is an excerpt from tunasifish

…. [the leader of the habadi’s] got very upset at people in 1960 when they wanted him to take on the leadership and he made reb avrohom hayor pick up thousands of pamphlets saying the rebbes moshiach in e”y …

meaning the leader of habad made his hasid retract claims that the leader is mashiach [claim by tunafish]

why then did the very same leader encourage and publicly validate his own mashiach claim ???

did he consider himself mashiach or not ???

if he did , why did he order the retraction of the pamphlets in the 1960’s ?

if he did not , why all the crazy [pseudo xtian] public mashiach frenzy in the 1980’s and the 1990’s ??

what is tunafish’s REAL opinion ?
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Oh .

in the other thread katan agreed that

pikuach nefesh overpowers [even his understanding of] the oaths

but now he is reverting to his old position

and he quotes a maharal

but without any address

we cannot check it

would he be so kind to give an address
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thanks
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There were two entities who had a problem with the jewish mass return to EY

the vatican and lehavdil satmar

both built their worldview on the fact that most yidden are exiled from EY

and both have a problem

vatican solved it by refusing official relations with israel for half a century

but caved in since

satmar lehavdil is still holding out

because it is apparently holding that most jews do factually not reside in EY

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@katan .

Thanks for this clarification.

This is very important.

here katan broke ranks with somejew.

if we are to take katan at face value [no reason not to]

katan agrees here that pikuach nefesh supersedes any understanding of the three oaths

so [even if] organizing an army to defend the yoshvei EY would contravene the oaths , nevertheless bimkom pikuach nefesh , this is mandated

katan argues that the IDF is not a good fit, because its involvement with the three hamurot.

meaning avoda zara giluy arayot and shfihut damim.

—

the Q is now . the mere fact that the IDF is osek in those three , is that enough to stop a frum jew’s involvement in the IDF

or do we need to consider the candidate, the frum jew’s own participation in the three hamurot ?
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meaning : if the frum jew himself will not participate in the three hamurot , but other people within that army are,

is that ground to prohibit the frum jew’s participation in the IDF to save lives ?
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@qwerty

Re examination of passionately held beliefs should not be cause for a breakdown

It should be a cause for the heady feeling of freedom and maturity

a feeling of not being enslaved by previous opinions

a feeling of openness and willingness to always learn more , know more , and

grow
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sechel , like the long disappeared menachem , is most probably digesting the new information and re considering his identity

otherwise why would they be so quiet for so long
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Nu .

a to the point answer ?

when is it coming ?
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Sounds like a joke

katan claims

“Please stop already with the nonsense that it is “non-halachic” just because it’s mentioned in an aggadita gemara”

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We never said its non halachik because it’s in an agadeta gemara .

We – repeating Avnei Nezer here – argue its non halachik , because it’s omitted by

MISHNE TORA LEHARAMBAM

TUR LERABANU YAKOV BAL HTURIM

SHULCHAN ARUCH LEMARAN HABET YOSEF

HAMAPA LEHARAMA

MISHNEH BRURAH LEBAAL HAHAFETS HAYIM

all of them , unanimous and undisputed pillars of halacha .

How much ink has been spilt over the centuries to explain omissions in our pillars of halacha ?

This is not a coincidence , nor happenstance.

This is halacha .

—
Message to mr somejew , mr katan and mr ujm

Running away doesn’t help

A major posek , AVNEI NEZER maintains its not lehalacha

based on [amongst other proofs]

the blatant omission of the oaths from all major pillars of halacha

ignoring this , and burying your heads in the sands does not make it go away

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@sechel

according to the gmara

a] j was busy with kishuf , which might explain the so-called wonders he allegedly performed

and that

b] j was meisit umediach et yisrael

a term which normally is used for causing and promoting avoda zara
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gmara does not state which avoda zara

the only avoda zara from those times we know about , is the belief and worship of j himself

so , besides j’s kishuf

and j’s promotion of self worship

according to the gmara

he would not be worthy of any punishment

possibly because he was a shomer torah in all other aspects

as is documented , if we are to believe this pupil of j , called mathew
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so-
was j shomer torah ?

yes.

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@katan

@somejew

The Q I posed to you , and

you ignored it , was

whether organized self defense to save millions from mass murder

is mandated , or

prohibited ?
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you have not answered this very simple question ….

Am still waiting for a TO THE POINT answer ….
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