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To QWERTY613
You are right . we cannot save habad, but we can make sure that some of their most outlandish ideas should be recognized by the overwhelming majority of our people for what they really are .I have been around for quite a while b’h , and I have witnessed it myself , how something totally beyond the pale , slowly slowly becomes accepted as the norm .
Of course thanks to the passage of time and [ve’od vehu ha ikar] relentless and persistent “ta’amula she hazaka she’eno hozeret rekam” [in the words of the late Manhig and Rebbe of Habad himself] …..
Ta’amula and party propaganda larov , as amply seen on these pages …..A cursory and openminded read of habad adherents’ comments on this page ,bearing in mind the [r]evolution[s] in in habad theology during the last 50 – 60 years , will inorexably force the reader to accept Morenu Rambam’s saying :
HASECHEL SHAMASH LEHARATSON
Whatever the the ratson wants , the sechel stands ready to do its bidding , like a true servant .
With true elasticity ….@hakatan
you cannot prove satmar rav is more right than other rabanim who disagree with him , from the events of oct 7 .
Tach ve tat was much worse when compared to oct 7 . much more ‘matir bisarchem ‘ r’l .
There was no zionism at that time .
And nevertheless there was this ‘matir bisarchem’ .
Must be that there are other averot which could also trigger such an outcome .
If those [or other] averot existed then , they could exist now too .
So it might very well be those other averot at play now too .
And not zionism.@menachem
You ask for a source for the psak of RMS shlitah re praying for soldiers.Maybe . Again, maybe . His reason is as follows .
Zionism has proven to be a tremendous magnet to pull people away yahadut and from true chinuch .
If we popularize identification with zionist symbols – even when otherwise warranted- ., we risk reinforcing and strengthening the power of this magnet- with disastrous consequences.
Not that al pi torah we shouldn’t pray for them .
Its the probable , or possible , consequences which are the problem .
Just a suggestion .
Might be wrong .
@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
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Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
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Am still waiting for an answer from hakatan …..@hakatan
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
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in other words-
The Army is a non starter . The Jews are allowed / should.
Even on Shabbat .
So it seems it is pikuach nefesh . Even according to katan.
So if the ‘jews’ cant do the job . Follows that the Pikuach nefesh is still present .
Remember we had Shabbat . We had pikuach nefesh overriding shabbat .
We had ‘Jews’ trying to [be mechalel shabbat] and take away the p/n , but did not succeed.
So we are left with a problem of p/n , ‘jews’ who cannot solve it . And an army which can take away the p/n .
should we stop the army and keep the p/n ? or use the army and get rid of p/n ?
Katan paskened , keep p/n and stop the army .
Question is – on what basis ?
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We will need a very well based rationale for this psak .
Because the life , the well being and the property of millions of our brothers and sisters are going to depending on this psak ….@my voice
If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
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Hope You’ll notice the slight change …
——-@hakatan
You write to me – please don’t disrespect The RBSH’O ‘s torah .
Where do I ever disrespect the Torah ? CHVSH !think that misquoting from, and ‘deleting’ , acceptable shitot from ge’onim muvhakim is much closer to disrespecting the torah …..
@hakatan
If you want to favor Satmar Rav over Avne nezer , I will respect that .
No problem .
But that does not absolve you from honesty and stating the facts .
You cannot claim that ALL rabbanim are agreeing with you .
You have to state that there is a Machloket and that you think satmar rav is correct .
Otherwise you are plain misleading .@hakatan
I do not have avne nezer with me .
It is a good few pages .
I learnt it a few weeks ago .
Will try to look it up again .
But cannot rely blindly on hakatans quotes.
Had some experience already .@Evalemosivlo
you are not right that everyone should drop everything and come home … [as you portrayed it]Moving to EY is not a simple thing at all and lots of thought should be given with regards to one’s own yahadut and the yahadut of ones family and lots of other heshbonot .
I have seen many families in Chuts la’arets being matsliach with their chinuch and yahadut , and when they moved to EY everything unraveled Rahmana Litslan .
Only with yishuv hadaat and after extensive consultation with rabanim with yirat shamayim who know your situation first hand, can one move.
It is forbidden to ascend en masse, regardless, as the Satmar Rav shows from multiple raayos, etc.
[hakatan]
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Not sure why you keep on omitting the clear psak of Harav Avnei nezer , that LEHALACHA it is mutar to ascend en masse as a bloc .So it is a machloket .
A machloket between two chashuve rabbanim in halacha .
Why does hakatan feel the need to usurp the whole playing field for himself ?Satmar rav is the only Rav around ? There are others too …
Why this ani ve’afsi od ?@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
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Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
Hakatan is trying to knock his [and by extension also all our collective heads] through the wall .
What he does with his own head is his own business , but let him please spare all other yidishe heads ….His fanatical Shibud to his Shitah Kdosha makes him believe that he can pasken she’elot hamurot mamash ,without a even shred of cognizance of a weighty and bitter reality .
This reality is unambiguous , and it is very clear and very immediate.
If the IDF goes on strike now , or it doesn’t have sufficient weapons to do its job . Or it doesn’t do its job for whatever other reason, it is very likely that Oct 7 will chvsh repeat itself in a multiplied fashion, hoyo lo tihyeh , yishmor hashem veyerachem .If that does not constitute immediate mass pikuach nefesh , then I am a banana , and hakatan is a cucumber.
Those monsters have to be stopped .
Have to .
Because al pi derech hateva , NO ONE ELSE WILL .Do we need Siyata dishmaya – for sure .
Im Hashem lo yishmor ir , shav shakad shomer ?
Sure , 100 % !!!This is alef bet. Pashut kebei’a bekutcha.
I wonder why such dvarim pshutim even need to be written.We have to do whatever we can ,to save yehudim .
No less than if there would be an earthquake ch’vsh .
We would mobilize . We would write our representatives in government.
Exactly the Same here.@ menachem shmei is correct
Pikuach nefesh warrants a response . not less than pikuach nefesh from a machala l’o.
Doing nothing is a travesty .
Doing nothing [where your action could have made a difference] makes you [partly] responsible for the bloodshed .
Elementary torah logic .So – WRITE TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE in Congress or Senate .
As Most Rabanim Ruled.I think it says בהר ציון תהיה פליטה……
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Katan to Evalimoshavlo:
It’s a machlokes to when that even refers, including yimei Chizkiyahu, bayis sheini – see Ibn Ezra
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Actually ,that’s the pasuk the Hafetz hayim quoted to Rav miPonevezh . Hafets Hayim spoke in 1933 before his petira and cried about all the terrible things which were going to happen to the yidden in Europe. When asked where will be the yeshua , he quoted that pasuk .
Rav miPonovezh , Rav Kahaneman inscribed those words on the outside wal of his yeshiva…
So, at least an authority no less than the Hafets hayim , who could safely be described as the greatest rabban shel yisrael in the last few generations [whose sfarim on sh’a are considered lehalacha in the overwhelming majority of haredi jewish homes],who connected this pasuk to our present situation.
So ,Evalemoshiv can’t be that wrong ….
Hello ?
@ my voice
‘Just look at how many Jews have been killed in Israel because of their Jewish identity in the past century over the USA, and that should put that argument to rest.’
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Sorry but you are mistaken .
You might be correct in your assessment of the past .
But what is kove’a, is not the past .
Only the future is kove’a .
If you close down the medina , you have millions of innocents who will be in harms way chvsh . Clearly and Immediately .
Not the UN , not NATO , not the Arabs States , not the US .
No one else will be able to protect the yidden there .
Not in the short term and not in the long term .
No point in deluding yourself ….@ hakatan
1] There is a clear Mizvah nowadays to live in EY .
And to buy property in EY .
Am quoting Shulhan Aruch and Hazon Ish here.
Accepted Psak Lechol hadei’ot.2] Whether ascending to EY as a bloc is halachically prohibited nowadays is a matter of dispute amongst the poskim . It is imperative to remain honest.
3] Sending emails to Congress is imperative because of Mass Pikuach Nefesh .
It is as clear as day that those monsters want to repeat Oct 7 until there is no one left .
It is equally clear that no one is interested / capable to stop them .
So – yes it is imperative to send emails to Congress .
Lo ta’amod al dam rei’acha.
It is a Lav De’orayta.4] Katan is so brainwashed by his ‘shita kdosha’ that he ends up being megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha .
His personal history is irrelevant .
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Fact is and remains .
Habad pre 94 , including ALL their rabbanaim etc etc .
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ALL of them proclaimed that mashiach is only from the live [not fom the dead , not from the ‘invisible’ , not from the ‘disappeared’ or whatever other label you want stick on]
Thats how THEY proclaimed their rebbi is mashiach and that this is part of the ikarei emuna .
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We know one thing for sure – habad is never wrong in their theology ….
So it MUST be like that .
Doesn’t make one iota of a difference what this or that gmara says , what this or that Rishon says – habad is never wrong ….
so the matter is settled forever and ever …..
Mashiach is Only from the live !@qwerty
Their theology does not have to align with facts . Maybe that is included in the motto of ‘lehathila ariber’ ?
Meaning – we will not be ‘gores’ any obstacles, if they come and obstruct our path in avodat hashem [or avodat harebbi] .
Which is an understandable and admirable approach.
.
But ….
Inconvenient facts could also sometimes function as obstacles , or not ?@qwerty
just for the record – even those two inventions [1. not dying at all or 2. yes dying but being more alive as a result of dying] were clearly rejected by habad pre 94 .
Not just rejected , but being proclaimed as going against ikarei emuna .
Because mashiach HAD to be from the living AND the present , which axiomatically guaranteed that their rebbi would not die or even ‘disappear’ before leading us all definitively out of the galut.
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Which was obviously proven wrong by the harshest judge of all – Reality…..
.@sechel
Dont falsify history .
They clearly said that he has to be from the living and cannot be from the dead . I remember it .
Its all over Kfar habad newspaper and articles by leading habad rabbanim and Mashpi’im .
R Shach accused them of apikorsus already before the mashiach debacle started . No connection .
If those who say mashiach cant be from the dead are kofrim , then habad pre 94 are kofrim and the ramban too .
Honesty morai verabotai . Honesty ….@Qwerty
The glaring inconsistencies of modern habad theology are so glaring that it serves as a perfect example of ‘en adam ro’eh et mumei atsmo’.
Besides, the fallacy of the equation of criticism of modern habad theology with sin’at hinam, reminds me of the leftists in Israel employing so called ‘demoktratsia’ as a rallying cry for their troops.
In fact , arguments about our mesorah , serve as an iron guarantor of the veracity of said mesorah . Imagine impostors through the ages , attempting to corrupt it . They would be greeted by howls of protest. Those very howls of protest are the surest indicator that no corruption occurred. And are not at all an indicator of so called ‘sin’at hinam’ [chvsh].
It is perfectly possible to criticize habad theology and still love the habad hasidim .MisheMetu Hananye Misha’el Ve Azarya Batla Ruach HaKodesh [Gmara Yuma , Sanhedrin]
Half of my posts are not published .
Why ?@anypotato
“….It’s not shayach b’metzius for a Rishon acharon or posek halacha to rule against Moshiach coming from the meisim…..”
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So pray tell , how was it shayech for ALL habad rabbanim mashpi’im and their rebbe that it is impossible to have mashiach come from the meisim ?@alwaysask
The issue is NOT whether R Moshe’s psakim are universally accepted or not.
The issue is whether he is universally RESPECTED .
Whether he should be mentioned as Moshe Feinstein or rather [as should be] R Moshe Feinstein .
That was the topic under discussion .
My point is that UNIVERSALLY he is quoted with respect , as R Moshe .
As opposed to Moshe.
And that this respect is MANDATORY , not voluntary .
Not depending on readers preference .
Not depending on expediency . .
.
And that ONLY in one specific circle that respect is not there .
For a reason .
Which happens to be the main bone of contention between them and all the rest of klal yisrael.@alwaysask
Ayen Darke Moshe Hearuch OC 472:3 in name of Terumat Hadeshen and mechaber hilchot kvod rabo [YD] ,re status of gadol hador / chacham muflag , that they are like rabo muvhak .
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R moshe is accepted as qualifying for the above , so the appellation of Reb / or rabbi / or rav , is mandatory in his case, not voluntary, nor depending on readers preference.
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seems to me , based on my experience at least , that in all circles in klal yisrael [from satmar to mizrachi , from hasid to mitnaged , from sefaradi to ashkenazi] , whether they agree on a specific issue or not , this appellation is universally employed.
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Besides for one circle ….@any potato
Sorry , but habad lost their ne’emanut in these matters a long time ago .
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It is crystal clear to any impartial bystander that they have one goal and one goal only . And that they are determined to get there , no matter the cost , no matter the acrobatics .
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There is a source to totally negate the whole mashiach from the dead idea , MUCH MORE POWERFUL AND CONVINCING that any ramban or r akiva or other relatively ‘small’ people [evidently meant sarcastically].
HABAD itself , based on the greatest human who ever tread on this Earth , all its rabbanim mashpi’im and its chozer have conclusively determined that it is AXIOMATIC in the Jewish Religion that mashiach comes only from the living .
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Who has any use for any ‘sefer’ printed in lakewood when it has the chutspa to disagree with all of the above ?
Can’t understand how you can even think differently ….@anypotato
This not merely a quote as a record of what Ramban happened to say in an argument with a Min .
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THIS IS A QUOTE OF WHAT RAMBAN HIMSELF WROTE FOR THE JEWS , AND EXPRESSLY DISTRIBUTED TO THE JEWS – AS PROPER HASHKAFA.
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Without any ‘manipulation’ for his own benefit [chvsh].
The Emet as it is ….
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“We know he is not mashiach because he died and the nevua of the nevi’im did not materialise in his lifetime .” [Leshono HaTahor Shel Rabban Shel Yisrael HaRamban Zatsal]
.@zaphod
who said that, that ‘ someone else ‘ has to exist now ?
the main thing here is that the mitsva should not become batel .
why should there be a difference [from the mitsva’s viewpoint] between ‘presently existing’ options compared to ‘future existing options’ . In both cases the mitsve is not abandoned . There is a viable realistic option of kiyum hamitsva in both cases .
seems that r elchonon ztsal meant the above , or not ?
besides the point , am not sure about the two tsdadim of the she’ela , isnt it just playing with words ?
am happy to be enlightened here@anypotato
….then say we reject him because he died without bringing the redemption as a fraud and grotesque manipulation of the truth and an insult to the martyrs who died Al kiddish Hashem…..
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Thats exactly what the RMBAN writes .
We know he is not mashiach because he died and the nevua of the nevi’im did not materialise in his lifetime .
The Ramban was not ‘manipulating the truth’ chvsh . Neither did he ‘insult’ the martyrs .
I happen to know , however, of some other people attempting to manipulate the truth .
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Manipulating the truth for their own benefit .@always ask
I ‘ll let you in in to a secret . The guy who said Moshe Feinstein [without rav] was a habad hasid .
Don’t tell me rubbish that he meant it similar to Hillel and Shammai.
Would he also say Menachem Mendel , like Hillel or Shammai ?
Or would he say ‘the rebbe’ ?
So why is R Moshe any different ??
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Sh’A says Lo Yikra Et Rabo BiShmo . And gadol Hador Kmo Rabo Muvhak . You do not call your parent by their first name either .
Alef Bet.@ arso
Can someone cite for me the first source for the celebration of 20 Kislev being due to the Baal Hatanya being taken to the misnaged’s house?It seems so strange – according to the story he said that the hours he spent in the misnaged’s house were worse than the entire time he spent in prison – to have a MAJOR celebration based on that. Furthermore, it seems so out-of-sync with today’s Lubavich and their claimed love of every Yid.
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Question back – Re ahavat yisrael .Who does a habad hasid love more ? a mechalel shabbat [even shana upiresh] or a frum ‘mitnaged’ ?
.They say that the first mesirah in vilna was from the hasidi ‘s side . As the Kahal belonged to the mitnagdim since they won the elections [that was in the beginning] . And the hasidim were the underdog ,and suffered under the kahal . So the hasidim ran to the government . So as reaction the mitnagdim also ran to the government . Thats how the baal hatanya ended up in jail .
Cannot vouch , however, for the accuracy of this chain of events .
Be it as it may , this is only history and b’h totally irrelevant nowadays .
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Since then we had many generations of hasidim and non hasidim living side by side in harmony , and even many times fruitfully cooperating for the common good .
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Any arguments about modern habad theology is a totally different issue and not connected to this historical saga.@ always ask
You mean
According to the Sh’A preferences [- meaning the RBSH’O ‘s preferences ……]
Appellation of R is mandated by Sh”A .
Not optional .
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Neither to satisfy ‘readers preferences’ .
No difference whether the towns name is following the first name, or not .
This is Accepted all over klal yisrael .
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Met someone in shul a few months ago , a very nice guy , a talmid chacham , was discussing some halacha with him and in the middle of the conversation he tells me the following – you know Moshe Feinstein writes about this ….
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Was SHOCKED to hear his name mentioned without appellation…..
.@Emunas1
Thanks for your post .
appreciated it very much .@qwerty
yes@ menachem
The GroupMind you , the above sicha about the chazon ish was said on Purim 1956 .
Merely Five years after he became the rebbi of the habad hasidim .
He was only fifty four years old at the time .
@menachem
REALLY TO ALLI took Menachems advice and was not relying on mere ‘hearsay’ as it was quoted to me by the habad hasid in EY [who claimed that there is a part of the sicha which is NOT PRINTED and only for PNIMI , only for habad consumption] but checked it out in torat menachem itself ,and want to share with the readership here the bottom line of the sicha
1] The chazon ish missed out on learning tanya
2] Therefore Chazon ish , now in olam ha’elyon , is jealous of a simple student of the habad yeshiva
3] The chazon Ish is standing now , begging to be let in to hear this simple student learning tanya, but he is refused entry and has to stay outside
4] seemingly there is no hope for him – ever,
but 5] after Thchiyat hametim when mashiach [! – guess who THAT is …] will teach the pnimiyut of the torah , then EVEN the chazon ish will be permitted to enter to hear and learn from mashiach [! – again ,guess who THAT is ….].
6] that is how the passuk ‘ki lo yidach mimemu kol nidach’ [which customarily is invoked as teaching that even the greatest sinner will merit olam haba] will be fulfilled …..
.I will leave an empty space here for the reader to fully digest what was said here .
And to fully digest what the desired and obvious results of these words are ….@ Always ask questions
RAV Chaim voloziner – not chaim voloziner
Psak Sh’A YD .@menachem
R Chaim was not habad . In non habad context , you are right .
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In habad context – reality proves you wrong .
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This a unique habad phenomenon .
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It is a pattern , obvious to all non partisan people .
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As mentioned in previous posts , you are biased and therefore cannot sit in judgement on your own ‘father’ in this regard [even though you spent countless hours learning his words]
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You cannot fathom [the obvious] that he would manipulate his hasidim to apply those concepts to him , himself .
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Ki Ha Shochad Ye’aver ……hello ?
@qwerty
you’r hilarious@cs
Amen
vechen lemar
from this post of yours I see that my previous post was not misplaced
thanks
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btw this is proof that criticism of modern habad is NOT sin’at chinam . Not at all .@arso
thanks@ menachem
And the joke is that Chabad tries to sell us on the idea that the Rebbe was anav mikal adam.How is looking at your Rebbes as the greatest leaders a contradiction to anivus? Is believing that Judaism is the greatest and truest religion a contradiction to anivus?
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All depends on whether their rebbe himself guided them towards ‘looking at them as the greatest leaders’ , or not .
In the case of the chafets chaim and the gra the answer is self evident . In some other cases ….@menachem
[Quote]
I didn’t say it about “those who have kashas on Lubavich”. I said it to explain my occasional silence on this thread (to answer the childish claim of “shtika k’hodaa (no, I don’t ch”v mean that the klal is childish. I mean that it’s childish to apply it to this context)).My point is very simple: Over the 26 pages of this thread, it is quite obvious that (some of) the opponents to Lubavitch on this thread (especially yankel and qwerty) are staunchly opposed to Lubavitch, and will attack (almost) any argument that I make.
Honestly, the same is the other way around: I am staunchly Lubavitch, and I’ll probably disagree with (almost) any attack against Lubavitch made here on the thread.
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Stop , stop please . Misunderstanding . Am NOT attacking habad as a whole.
Only certain aspects of it . They are our brothers and do have a lot to offer . Hope that’s abundantly clear from all my posts until now . Repeating this here ‘lehotsi miliban …
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This is the reason why this thread (and many other similar threads) are just going in circles with endless arguments and questions. Questions that are really meant as תירוצים for explaining the “problems with Lubavitch” or the “maalos of Lubavitch” (from each side respectively).
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Here we get to the kernel of the issue .
we are NOT discussing the ma’ala vs. the chisaron of habad . Far from it . If you think that , you are missing the point . The ma’ala is agreed on .
The argument is whether there is something problematic here [irrespective of the maala] or not . We say there is , you say there is not .
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Therefore, when I’m being pummeled by dozens of questions on many different ideas, and I know that most of what I say won’t actually change the minds that are already set – I’m not really interested in working on answering every single question.To say that this implies some sort of admission of guilt is ridiculous.
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“Shtika ke hoda’a” is referring to specific arguments made , specific questions , when they are met by the chief habad defendants on this thread , menachem and nomesorah , with either totally ridiculous assertions , sidestepping [nomesorah] or ‘retreat to the bunker’ tactics [menachem].Again , not regarding habads ma’alot [of which there are many] . But of habads Chesronot or problems . When REPEATEDLY the issues are not dealt with .
The question is – why are they not dealt with ?Obvious reply is , there IS NO ADEQUATE ANSWER . Hence Shtika Ke Hoda’a ….
Now – according to Menachem there is a rebuttal – R Chaim !R Chaim absolves us from answering , because the kushiyot are teirutsim .
If someone can make head or tail of this argument , please , I am all ears ….
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P.S. Regarding your later point:I agree that Lubavitchers have an agenda. They feel that their derech will immensely improve the avodas Hashem of all Yidden, which is why they feel the need to spread it to anyone they come in contact with (however, I disagree with many of your examples).
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[As a Side point]
Problem is that there are strings attached to their derech .
Acceptance of a ‘personality centered ‘ avoda . As opposed to a ‘Boreh centered’ avoda .
Acceptance of totally illogical twists and turns ,designed to further their own position ,while trampling on time honored and commonsense traditions .
Acceptance of innovations and inverted realities .
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Same derech of habad – without any of the above would find nearly no resistance .
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BOTTOM LINE
There are valid questions raised in this thread – with NO VALID ANSWERS ….
If there are answers out there, please …..
Is it Shtika KeHoda’a ? Or Not ?@emunas1
Agree