Always_Ask_Questions

the last word, whatever your feelings are, it is somewhat strange to put Poland in the same line as Germany here.

I do not disagree w/ Common’s sentiment, just want to make sure we are not getting used in some other nefarious political campaign. For example, a lot of Jewish (often justified) criticism happen to go against former Soviet satellites – Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Hungary, while they still had or have issues with the Bear nearby. This is a re-run. In 19203-s, Jews were very active in newly created small countries between Germany and Soviet Russia. They appealed to League of Nation to protect their minority rights (as well as other minorities including Germans and Russians). There is a book published in Israel in 1950s by surviving Latvian politicians. They lament that they were so excited fighting those governments and only later realized that they were pawns in the hands of Nazis and Soviets who sought to weaken and eventually occupy these countries. Their first realization was when Nazis started prosecuting Jews and they appealed to the same department of the League as usual – and got a cold response that “German Jews are not a minority registered by the LofN” …

So, the same now – do we condemn for old sins or support in current struggle, say, Ukraine, that has a Jewish President and is partly occupied by Russia.

Avram, I agree that the current question is: to what degree immunity by vaccine or disease w/ previous strains are effective against Delta, so old results are not appropriate any more.

Two things to note:
1) growing number of cases now affects everyone who was not vaccinated. I hear again, unfortunately, of people in dire state. You may want to check with people in your circle, esp, anyone over 40 and with any kind of health conditions, whether they are vaccinated. And I would not count on a mild case to provide protection, unless confirmed by recent antibody test.

2) it is clear that unvaccinated are threat to vaccinated, and government is not there yet. There are lots of unvaccinated workers in nursing homes and any other facilities for elderly. Check with your relatives and friends where they are. Maybe get them a 3rd vaccine without waiting for CDC.

Syag, simple reading is that Hashem would not give us mitzvos that can hurt us. And I am asking if someone could look up what is the definition of danger here.

There is definitely time for mesiras nefesh during the time of prosecution, but my sense of this Gemora is that Hashem does not give us mitzvos that their ordinary performance is bad for us. There are extra-ordinary examples of, say Rabbi Chaninah making the snake bite him and the snake dies, but I don’t think we are called to emulate him.

Sukkah 32 – we reject s possible candidate for Hadas because it is poisonous because darkei Torah are darkei Naom. So, those who think we should fulfil mitzvos by doing things that are dangerous for your health, please review rishonim at this page – maybe they allow such behavior under some conditions.

yes, from Germans during WW2 and from Russians during WW1 and WW2. As I said, I fully understand your emotions an do not disagree. Still, not all Germans, Russians and even more Poles or Hungarians were involved in atrocities … Would you hold, for example, Frau Merkel accountable – when she went to such length protecting Syrian refugees (I am not touching here on the wisdom of her policy, just on her sentiment here)

Health > , I can’t understand why the Government is only pushing Vaccinations.

Current gov is not pushing anything much. They continue using vaccines they got from Trump, and working on getting a new head of FDA. This is a difficult task tht they hope to accomplish soon.

The argument for focusing on vaccines that we became a society of stupid. The solution works when it is automated and does not require human effort. People read fbook instead of books freely available at the libraries. They buy 1-click from amazon things they could have bought years ago from a wholesale store 30 minutes away. If you manage to convince people to get to a CVS for a vaccine, you achieved a lot. Many other complimentary efforts require a human effort from public or doctors, it is hard. Some doctors in advanced hospitals do not order antibody test for vaccine immunity because CDC does not recommend and the hospital system does not allow ordering. No kidding. Some of the medicines are not used fully because the protocol of using them ina hospital is too complicated.

Re: your protocols (in addition to the vaccine, I presume), it is called “multi layered defense”, is used in all militaries, including defense against nuclear or any other mass attacks. For example, Israelis use Iron Dome, but also sirens to tell population to hide, and Arrow for other types of missiles. This is what Yaakov does before meeting Esav.

So, at minimum, people should continue SD to whatever level they can do, keep ventilation up, eat vitamins, exercise, and daven.

ari-free > it is sad that instead of being proud of trump for pushing out the vaccines in record time b

I agree. I don’t think the “kooks” fully represent Trump voters. I see in sentiments in other places that
middle America gets it now, saying like “while there are lots of things I did not like about Trump, I liked xxxx”. I wonder whether one of the reasons that people started partying like in roaring 1920s is that Biden is always declaring victory (as Trump also often did), but there is no daily pushback from media and people sense the difference. You may not be watching MSNBC, but you talk to someone who talked to someone who does. Sentiments propagate like viruses.

Could you imagine daily headlines if under Trump vaccination rate would fall down like now – it will US falling behind Germany one day, against Spain another day .. instead, they may write “vaccination rates started going up for 2 weeks ago” – when the rates barely moved from 0.17% of population a day to 0.21%, comparing to 1% that many countries sustained for several months.

Or, if Trump would not have an FDA head _candidate_ for 8 months. instead, we are told – it is hard to find someone who is qualified and also wants the job and also is not objected by progressives and by moderates … so, it takes Biden longer to fill a job, than for Trump t develop vaccines. Just think, what would be happening if Delta would have arrived and vaccines would be still in development or waiting for authorization? (FYI – FDA says it started working “24/7” on full authorization in August after Delta arrived – so, they were 8/5 before, I guess)

> Buy the k95 masks if you want to actually protected but being in a room with someone with covid and you have the same chance of getting covid whether it is with or without the mask.

I agree that K95 are better if you choose to be in the room with someone for some time. Note that rooms can be made safer with open doors/windows/vents. In my tests with 2 people in a small room with 6 work places, having regular vents does not help, but just opening a door to a corridor solves the problem (CO2 level goes back almost outside level, that is air circulates out).

>> “As I explained above, I have daas Torah that rejects a modern idea of Daas Torah and clings to more traditional Yiddishkeit,”

> No idea what that means.

It means I have learnt from a respected Rav, not some extreme activists, that Daas Torah is not in the Talmud (yes, he heard of Emunat Chachamim), and most times I am asking a non-trivial life Shaila (rather than a refernce to Sh’A), I am told that he is giving me an advice, not a psak. In truth, I get similar non-psak from the pro-Daas-Torah Rav. So, if I accept Daas Torah, I will be not accepting what I learned from my Teacher. I am really in a tough spot.

> theres no real reason to add the BY part other than to tie it to the context.

there is. They were teaching kids that “modern” is a swear word and kids would look what humros are not done in the house, instead of helping their mother. If your BY is not affecting kids like that, that is great.

Thanks, I see the message here is that a low self-esteem person would see himself disrespected even when you do everything equally. If you divide a chicken in two parts, and give him one, he might still think that you are eating a bigger and tastier part. You pay for 2 rooms in the hotel, and your slave/employee thinks that you have a luxury suite. Maybe, divide the chicken and ask him to choose the part. Let employee order the rooms for everyone himself.

Resident, there is logic in your words, but part of the consideration is risk of exposure. The usual reason for extra testing of vaccines is that it is given to healthy population, of which only a small number will get exposed to a virus (think, Ebola or Yellow Fever).

In a case of a pandemic, when the pandemic is raging and those people who are at exposure (college, HS students in large groups, in poorly ventilated rooms, for example) might have say 30% chance of exposure or more. That is, you need to compare 1-to-1, or 1-to-3 risk/benefit from the virus v. risk from vaccine. Vaccine is developed by certified Western scientists, virus was developed by a team of bats and batmen. Vaccine is tested for extra safety, virus attacks your organs. Most of this is kal vahomer in favor of vaccine.

The only consideration might be an overdose. Vaccines had combined Phase 1/2 to test several doses, and then one shot to pass Phase 3 in time to save lives. I suspect that higher doses were used in order to pass the test for sure. Maybe, we should have had even more Phase 3s with different doses… Moderna just published that 1/2 and even 1/4 of doses seem to be effective, and this might be an approach to vaccinate more people in the world. “1/2 dose now is better than full does a year later”. Similarly, ongoing tests on children are using smaller doses. I see no reason why the smaller doses should not be used for any young person. There is also research showing that increasing gap between doses reduces side effects. I wish we could have voted to keep Pres Trump and his team to deal w/ Op Warp to sort all these issues out, while Pres Biden fights climate change and other sheidim.

Syag, thanks for trying. CAPS do not seem to help. I zoomed in further. Same ting.

in law, there are 2 parts – facts and opinions. I hope we agree that it is not OK to endangering yourself and other people. You simply disagree with me on facts. OK, as I said, my town seems not to hold at the same level as yours. I am grappling how to deal with people in my town who play frum, even if they had friends and relatives sick or died from COVID. If considerations of previous generations are not impressive to you, and you need direct guidance, Avi K just quoted above a contemporary Rav who is well versed in medicine.

> How do you measure your string or the diagonl of the square?

By the string! How do you measure “1”?! same way. We are talking lengths, not abstract numbers.
Yes, 3 for Pi is often good enough, except in the Rav Yohanan’s puzzling statement.

Greeks were very disturbed when they realized that there are irrational numbers (I think it was sqrt(2)). I don’t think Jews have same concerns about rationality of the world. Hashem is One, the rest can be counted approximately. (paraphrasing “In G-d we trust, everyone else pays cash”)

Gadol, you can get the steak if you pay for the steak. Spirit serves cheap fares and achieves it by cutting those expenses. People at Spirit presumably meet daily and see what else to do reduce your fare from $29 to $28.

I thought you are somewhat a liberal and care about poor people. Would you regulate to Spirit to provide higher wages for talent that show you how to wear seatbelts and masks? The best way to do that is to allow businesses to serve people. That what “liberal” used to mean before socialists took over the word.

Avi K, thanks for the reference. The question is how to affect things lehathila. Maybe, Jewish communities instead of requiring vaccine passes, simply prepare a shtar to be signed, saying in case beis din determines me responsible I will take the practices listed above to the extent of my responsibility? That is, say, 1 of 3 people had infected 4th, then each should fast every 3rd week.

If we can figure two people holding one tales, we can figure out this.

Avi K> I am shocked that people who are machmir on any little minhag are so meikal on nefashot.

“pray for the welfare of the government”. I got new appreciation for both civil governance and halakha: people routinely follow so many rules from (mostly) stopping on red lights to (usually) saying mincha before zman, attending schools, paying for groceries, parking in the designated places. It is only when you get into an unsettled situation, then people change. Read about behaviors in Soviet and Nazi labor camps, some people behaved, some did not … Especially, when the danger is unseen…

RebE, on the other hand, there is Berdichever – My son, do you not know that you can’t smoke on Shabbos/ Maybe you don’t know that today is Shabbos/See, eibishte, how honest are you children, will admit all aveiros but will not lie …

So, we have here Jews who are confronted with a new, confusing, situation, using their Jewish independence streak to make stupid decisions. To paraphrase Satmerer, don’t wait for rofeh cholim to daven for them, start at honen hadaas…

First, learn halakha from Spirit and do not travel close to Shabbos. Second, have a balance – if you need once to buy an extra ticket, it is probably less than all savings from all years. CS, you may be a certified engineer, but for large low-income families, Spirit provides a way to see the velt …

RebE, I am talking about a slightly different case: Sukkah 8, where Rav Yohanan does computation of number of people who can sit in the round sukkah. That number comes correct if you use precise values for Pi and sqrt(2). Amoraim then try to re-do that using their numbers, come up short and then start coming up with tirutzim, like they are sitting at the outer circle, rather than at exactly the radius. See p. 140 in “Do Scripture and Mathematics Agree on the Number π?” by Professor Isaac Elishakoff and Elliot M. Pines, PhD, Fifth Miami International Conference on Torah and Science, 16-18 December 2003, B’Or Ha’Torah 17 (5767/2007)

But geometry is not all to math. Look up lectures by Econ Nobel Prize winner Robert Aumann where he compares Gemorat with modern economics:
three appraisers Bava Basra 107a, three widows Ketubos 93a, moral hazard – Ketubos 15 incentives Bava Basra 89a

RebE > someone who is vaccunated should not have to wear a mask when the other person has the optiion to vaccinate
coffee > This calls for a kiddush

No, this calls for retrospection. Coffee, I understand RebE that he does not want to bother protect someone who does not care about himself. I.e. as in a mitzva to help the animal “with the owner”, i.e. only when the owner participates. So, RebE writes off these people from “reecha” .. nothing to celebrate … I would not go that far – not greeting is ok, but not care at all …

By the way, as I just quoted in another thread, Israeli research showed that out of 40 vaccinated health workers who got infected, ALL were infected by unvaccinated. So, unvaxed remain a threat to others.

common, curious – what were “public schools” in Poland before WW2? I listened with kids to a bunch of Ellis Island interviews, and all Jews were like – We did not have enough money for school before, and here I was able to go to a high school for free …

while looking at info about re-infections, found this interesting article
Moriah Bergwerk, etc Covid-19 Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated Health Care Workers. New England Journal of Medicine, July 2021 reporting on 1500 vaccinated health care workers. Here are interesting tidbits: 2.5% (40 cases) of them got infected (Covid-alpha) in 14 weeks. Of these, 1/3- no symptoms, 2/3 – mild.
Likely source of infection – 100% unvaccinated persons (60% – household member, 30% – other healthcare worker or patient: 7 out of 11 from just one patient)

Most who got infection had low antibody levels – thus antibody level can serve as a marker of risk (contrary to “asinine” CDC recommendation not to do these tests)

I quoted before someone who was invited to Satmar to be a doctor for yomtov, and shared with the Satmerer Rav that he is not just a stam doctor, but is also preparing to get a (kosher but modernishe, I presume) smicha. Rav responded – besser rofeh cholim mimatir asurim

>> “The book 1984”……what compelled you to read this trief?”

> How do you know its treif “

Don’t know for sure whether any Gedolim read 1984, but R Steinsaltz Z’L was able to recognize a quote from the last page of “Animal farm”, so he read the whole thing – and that book is literally full of hazer.