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Yes. That way I can use both on the same 3 day Yom Tov without washing them.
To quote the original article:
that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant within two years of their graduation.
This does not shock me in the slightest. I imagine most “graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools” are only there in the first place as a private “prep” school (which is what we see in areas like Teaneck, and schools like RAMAZ) with some “Jewishness” mixed in to make it socially acceptable. Many of those never see their parents doing anything Jewish except to light the Menorah (with bulbs). That is what you get for being a prep school instead of a yeshiva (as well as why tuition is so much higher in these areas).
V’Haryah, Mrs. Trump (whose children would need to be M’Gayer, IMHO).
Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.
This is what I have seen as well.
However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.
This is a good point regarding self-selection.
PBA: I’m not sure if the side arguing for mixed seating is saying that it should be for married or perhaps only for singles, with a married couple or two at each table who volunteer to help break the ice.
There’s nothing wrong as long as it is presented as a hagiography, producing a hagiography while claiming it’s a biography is wrong.
The only people who claim it is a biography don’t know that the word hagiography exists. Blame the Yeshiva system for not teaching English.
P.S. Rav Gifter was once giving a shiur (I guess on Hilchos Shabbos) and describing an item that could be part of clothing “like an epaulette”. Seeing the blank faces of the Talmidim, he closed his sefer and said that after you learn English, you can come back and learn here.
boys are cheaper and they don’t usually get lice. that’s the real reason people want them.
IIRC, that is the reason given by Avraham, that he should not have to pay a dowery.
It continues to be true today. Sons in law require life support, while daughters in law work to support their families!
The correct term is Hagiography, not Biography.
There is nothing wrong with it.
See, at the shmorg there is no problem because I am ???? in eating, but at the badeken there is no heter.
Ta’avas Ochlin beats out Ta’avas Noshim. I like and hear this.
Oz Vehadar Levusha (Rav Pesach Eliyahu Falk)
Joseph: If I were cynical, I would say that the OP asked to learn a Sefer. If I were cynical. 🙂
Medrash Rabba on the Parsha
GAW: I asked my father that. He said that one of the rules of nature that HKBH set up was that someone who eats from the Eitz Hachayim will live forever. Thus, even though He can abrogate that, He usually limits himself to the laws of nature that he set up.
WADR, that really makes no sense. If Hashem is willing to make the murderer walk under the ladder at the same time the Shogeg is going up, he can arrange that the eater trip on a rock and shatter into a gazillion pieces, or have his head chopped off, or fall into a pot of boiling water, etc. Unless you want to say that eating from the Eitz HaChaim changed the physical nature of a person (less biologic, more like a malach), then that doesn’t make any sense to me.
A man in the presence of an unwell 90 year old woman who is not dressed properly cannot daven. The likelihood that he will feel any sort of physical attraction is just not there. The fact that this doesn’t make sense to you, or anybody else, doesn’t change anything.
As usual, you are mixing up two completely different Halachos. Ervah (which is NOT Hirhur) and Hirhur (which is not Ervah). Both are not allowed, even without the other.
As for the OP, what I have seen sometimes is three sections: One for Men, one for Women, and one for Shegetzes who want to sit with their spouses. The women can dance in their section, and the men in their own section, and the waiters can take over the middle section during dancing.
Why was Hashem worried that Adam would eat from the Eitz HaChaim & live forever? After all, as the Ribbono Shel Olam, He could just kill off Adam whenever He felt it appropriate.
Thanks.
A request for this thread: Could Joe please pick one screen name, not the three (or more) that he has used so far?
Thanks.
Obama, because he will give more money to Yeshivos & Kollels. I can not understand how anyone who considers themselves Frum would go against the directives of the Gedolim to do otherwise.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-are-pple-voting-for-obama
Legally, I am not sure exactly how the court would evaluate other potential options. I would imagine that they do not expect every mandated disclosure to be sent out by the Health Department.
I guess we will find out.
Syag: That is the best way to look at it, from both sides.
I feel that schools should have more days (at least for some), especially in the beginning of the year, and perhaps more off days in the middle (for others). But that depends on the parent body as well. Its silly to open Isru Chag when 30% of the students are in Israel or Florida, or were up until 3:00 the previous night arriving home from the Yom Tov hotel.
As a law student, I find this topic interesting. I did a tiny bit of research and it seems to me that this law would be held up to “Strict Scrutiny” which means that a court would evaluate three things to determine whether the law is Constitutional:
1. Whether the law serves a compelling government interest,
2. Whether the law is narrowly tailored to serve that compelling interest, and
3. Whether this law is the least restrictive means for achieving that interest.
I don’t see how this is “least restrictive” if a mass mailing of the concerns to all NYC residents would accomplish the same goal of disseminating the information. if MBP was disallowed by NYC completely then this would be a completely different case, but as is it is also a freedom of speech issue, as the government is focing the Mohelim to speak.
gaw: I appreciate your advice. Unfortunately it wont be able to work out with my family for various reasons. But opening a school, i dont know if i can do that but i am thinking of opening a babysitting service (in my home) for a minimal “per hour” charge and more accommodating hours than most babysitters in my area.
Your community will thank you (and you will see how difficult it is). The advantage of babysitting over an actual school is that there are no scholarships!
Of course, to accomodate working parents, your hours will have to be from about 7:30 – 6:00 (I am aware of ONE legal frum day care service in NY that has such hours, but none other), but I’m sure that you are up to the task.
And btw, I did open up my own school (a pre-school)and it was great but when the teachers insisted I pay their childcare in addition to their higher salaries I couldn’t make the budget work.
And you think that the schools that ARE open are any different?
Thank Hashem you are able to work. People would love to but can’t due to health reasons or are out of a job or other issues.
Agreed.
Gavra_at_W**K
If you feel this way about the school you send your children to, then you are sending your children to the wrong school.
Agreed. B”H he doesn’t in my case, but other schools seem to be this way (from what I read here).
The biggest problem I have with most comments in this thread is the notion that parents are paying customers with the school providing a service. That is absolutely false. The parents and teachers are full partners.
It does, but only in very special schools where the pricipal realizes his great achrayus, not when the pricipal sees his school as the “family business”.
I wrote”Our schools are communal Tzedakas ….”And your response was they are not.lets change that a bit
Nu, OPEN A SCHOOL!!!
Gavra:
I urge you to review the contracts with schools and yeshivos. I have yet to see one that spells out the responsibility of the school. All I have ever seen is the financial responsibility of the parent, and often other terms such as adhering to certain standards of tznius, not having television or internet access, etc. Nowhere in writing is there a statement by the school accepting to keep the child in a safe environment, providing the range of educational services needed (noting exceptions for special services the school may not have), and maintaining communication with the parents on any matters relating to school policy, changes, schedules, or disciplinary issues. The complete absence of all of this is what makes me suspect that the contracts might well be dismissed by a court (I’m not a lawyer).
You said it yourself. Not a Lawyer. Besides, no one is making you sign.
The way yeshivos raise funds (except for tuition)is by holding themselves up to the public as communal organizations. The trouble is that our yeshivos are competing. If a talmid would need extra time and effort from the hanhala, he is likely to be considered a liability. Let the competition have that. And we have hundreds of bochurim and girls without yeshivos or schools.
Of course it does, just like any other 990. OOPS, Yeshivos don’t file 990s. You are not Mechuyav to give, so don’t. Once again, I suggest that you open a school.
I interact with mechanchim regularly, and I must say that there are some great ones out there. However, I have yet to encounter a yeshiva that can attest to all of its staff being trained, supervised, and true metzuyanim in the field. There are a few that aspire to that, but most are preoccupied with the quality of the applicants, not the quality of the staff. And that is worse than sad. Those who complain about the salaries are correct, but it is the exceptional rebbe that deserves the higher range salary. Unfortunately, no one will judge the salary by the quality of the rebbe, only by tenure, family size, and relationship to the menahel.
Your point? I don’t know of any field where every worker is above average.
One rebbe noted on Simchas Torah that he met up with a former talmid of his, now married with children. He had last seen this talmid in his 5th grade class 20 some years ago. The talmid approached him and thanked him for being his rebbe way back when. The rebbe said it made his day.
Do you remember your 5th grade rebbe? If so, why? These are the questions that help us recognize the true mechanchim, not the “minimum wage” rebbe who defaulted into chinuch after years of kollel with no training for a career.
I agree with the last point, but that is a bigger societal problem than yeshiva tuition. Besides, if you pay well, you get really good rabbaim who ARE Metzuyanim. You just have to pay for it.
Gavra:
I urge you to review the contracts with schools and yeshivos. I have yet to see one that spells out the responsibility of the school. All I have ever seen is the financial responsibility of the parent, and often other terms such as adhering to certain standards of tznius, not having television or internet access, etc. Nowhere in writing is there a statement by the school accepting to keep the child in a safe environment, providing the range of educational services needed (noting exceptions for special services the school may not have), and maintaining communication with the parents on any matters relating to school policy, changes, schedules, or disciplinary issues. The complete absence of all of this is what makes me suspect that the contracts might well be dismissed by a court (I’m not a lawyer).
You said it yourself. Not a Lawyer. Besides, no one is making you sign.
The way yeshivos raise funds (except for tuition)is by holding themselves up to the public as communal organizations. The trouble is that our yeshivos are competing. If a talmid would need extra time and effort from the hanhala, he is likely to be considered a liability. Let the competition have that. And we have hundreds of bochurim and girls without yeshivos or schools.
Of course it does, just like any other 990. OOPS, Yeshivos don’t file 990s. You are not Mechuyav to give, so don’t. Once again, I suggest that you open a school.
I interact with mechanchim regularly, and I must say that there are some great ones out there. However, I have yet to encounter a yeshiva that can attest to all of its staff being trained, supervised, and true metzuyanim in the field. There are a few that aspire to that, but most are preoccupied with the quality of the applicants, not the quality of the staff. And that is worse than sad. Those who complain about the salaries are correct, but it is the exceptional rebbe that deserves the higher range salary. Unfortunately, no one will judge the salary by the quality of the rebbe, only by tenure, family size, and relationship to the menahel.
Your point? I don’t know of any field where every worker is above average.
One rebbe noted on Simchas Torah that he met up with a former talmid of his, now married with children. He had last seen this talmid in his 5th grade class 20 some years ago. The talmid approached him and thanked him for being his rebbe way back when. The rebbe said it made his day.
Do you remember your 5th grade rebbe? If so, why? These are the questions that help us recognize the true mechanchim, not the “minimum wage” rebbe who defaulted into chinuch after years of kollel with no training for a career.
I agree with the last point, but that is a bigger societal problem than yeshiva tuition. Besides, if you pay well, you get really good rabbaim who ARE Metzuyanim. You just have to pay for it.
Shelo Asani Shvigger.
It is reason enough to make a brocha every day.
gavra_at_work: You’re right that yeshivas are not reduced babysitting. The point is that I am paying tuition, an exhorbitant amount i might add, and on top of that i have to pay for additional babyisitting for the many many days off that the schools give. As an aside, as mentioned above, babysitting is alot more sometimes. Being that i do not have the knowledge necessary to be a full time morah to my children, but we do have the chiyuv to teach them, we send them to a yeshiva/BY. I cant just stop sending them.
So vote with your feet and brain. If your husband is in Kollel, he can teach all of the Torah topics. Try a homeschooling program (maybe an online one), they do make it easier, and teach yourself the secular material (at least until high school, it shouldn’t be difficult).
Or as I suggested to ABCD, try opening a school.
abcd2: I suggest that you open a school that charges less tuition. Otherwise you are blowing hot air, but not solving a thing.
Schools are expensive, and you get what you pay for. You can send your child to a school in Williamsburg for less, if that is your only concern. Or even cheaper is your local public school.
Our schools are communal Tzedakas and for to long we have not been organized enough to oversee how best we can help them and they help us.
They are NOT communal. If they were, they would have to accept everyone, which they don’t.
Gavra:
You wrote, “don’t forget that your husband has a chiyuv to teach his children. The school does not.” You are half right. The father of the children has the chiyuv of chinuch (not to exclude the mother, but that’s for another discussion). The school absolutely does have a chiyuv, and that is the only justifiable reason for the existence of any mosdos of chinuch. Moreover, the mosdos are being paid big money (big for the parents footing the bill), and their obligation is to provide the service that they obligated themselves to by accepting the contract with thge parents. What is angering to parents is when the yeshivos and schools have no problem blaming parents for anything and everything, but when a rebbe or teacher falls short, they defend it with all sorts of lame excuses. And no one has raised the abusiveness exhibited by some rebbes, teachers, and menahalim. No, gavra, the world of chinuch is imperfect (as we all are), and to throw all responsibility on parents is inaccurate, ignorant, and unfair.
Is it fair when the tuition contract obligates a parent to pay money for a service, but does not obligate the school to provide it? I’d like to see that tested in a court one day.
As you yourself agree, the school only has the responsibility as much as there is a contractual obligation in exchange for funds received. The school is no different than your gardener with whom you have a contract that both parties enter into willingly.
The service days that the school agrees to provide is determined by the SCHOOL, not the parent. You would lose in a court, both secular and Bais Din.
Now you bring up a completely different point regarding the quality of the service provided. I can only speak for myself that I have been suprisingly pleased with the Rabbaim and Morahs that my children have had. If you feel that you are not getting your money’s worth, you should certainly cancel/nonrenew your contract with the school. Your renewal shows that you believe that the service provided is adaquate.
Piryeh verivyah is still a mitzvah regardless of the number of children one has. One cannot decide to stop doing a mitzvah.
Source?
miritchka: Ask yourself how much an actual babysitter would cost you, then complain about your tuition. If you are “disappointed”, don’t forget that your husband has a chiyuv to teach his children. The school does not.
I agree 100% with shmoel.
You don’t like it? Stop paying for and using the service provided. The yeshiva is NOT your free or reduced pay babysitter. Would I like to have more days? Sure, but I’m not willing to stop paying for the service provided over it.
1: The Chassidishe Gatesheader’s suggestion of Gateshead
2: Lakewood NJ
I don’t see the Five Towns for someone who has children & no support. You will have to find an apartment that can fit your children, which will be expensive (I would think), and will just add stress to you family (which is probably already stressed). I agree that if money was not an object, then the best place for a special needs son is in Darchei.
Both Lakewood & Gateshead (from TCG) have cheap housing (Lakewood has huge basements for under $1000), cheap tuition, and support for special needs children.
Alternativly, you can consider joining the Chardal community in EY (or Dati Leumi). I don’t know much about it, but they might be more accepting of your children.
Job has a happy ending!
rabbiofberlin: That is my point. The government cannot make a law that only affects a religious practice. It CAN make a law that incidentally affects a religious practice.
The MBP law will probably be declared unconstitutional as is.
“It is a permissible reading of the [free exercise clause]…to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion is not the object of the [law] but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended….To make an individual’s obligation to obey such a law contingent upon the law’s coincidence with his religious beliefs, except where the State’s interest is ‘compelling’ – permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, ‘to become a law unto himself,’ contradicts both constitutional tradition and common sense.’ To adopt a true ‘compelling interest’ requirement for laws that affect religious practice would lead towards anarchy.”
Employment Division v. Smith
I seriously don’t understand why you do not study one of the classical philosophical tracts. It is probably the only one that you will accept as “challenging but not to the point of boredom and interesting but not to the point of pop culture.
No romance, no violence, no foul language, but written on an 11th grade level of interest and not tragic.”
The book of Job.
Chances are that you can even study it in the original language and not have to use the Greek or Latin translation!
nishtdayngesheft: That is because the technology is not advanced enough to make it proof. When it is “proof”, it will be admitted (just like any other Siman Muvhak).
V’HaRayah!!
Shas & Yahadut HaTorah Send a Clear Message to PM Regarding State Budget
The Ribbono Shel Olam knows. I don’t. And even if Obama wills, he could be the best thing for Yidden ever. Even if Romney wins, he could be the worst thing for Yidden, or Vice versa.
Lev Melachim V’Sarim B’Yad Hashem.
DNA is never 100% proof. Science admits there is (something like) a 1 in 100 million chance it belongs to someone else with an exact same dna sequence.
OK, so pick a different example. Lets say there was a retina scan that someone was in a building that collapses, and they find one unidentifiable body. Or if they can identify a body via a fingerprint. That would be “proof”.
I don’t know if a 1/100 Million chance of being wrong is Halachic “proof”.
Gavra: Are you saying that scientific proof (i.e. DNA evidence) is acceptable as proof?
Absolutely, it just depends for what case/proof. Once again, can you be more specific?
For example, I know of no Rav who would not be Mattir an Agunah based on scientific proof that a dead person was her husband, just like dental records can be used according to many poskim. Of course, that does assume that the DNA testing is proof (as opposed to a “likelihood” or proof of relation). I am not a Muvhak in DNA testing methods, and do not know if they are considered “proof”.
oomis1105:
I do NOT think Obama is the best thing since sliced bread (perhaps since Al Gore invented the internet :-). I’m just pointing out what the Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel would say to do, based on the facts. I would then not follow them, just like I wouldn’t follow them in Eretz Yisroel, and just like most of Lakewood voted for Christie over Corzine even though the Kotler family & Roshei Yeshiva endorsed Corzine.
We are not monolithic, nor are we stupid. Many of us are not sheep either. Kollels will be supported with or without the government, as Parnassah is from the Ribbono Shel Olam. Hashem will place His ideas in the mind of our leaders either way. The only thing we can do is be Mekadesh Shem Shomayim by saying those who are creating a world that is full of Zima are unacceptable to Yidden.
Curiosity: except when the Gedolim tell the people to vote directly for PM (which was the law about 10 years ago), and when the Gedolim have their parties join the left/center (wasn’t so long ago) on the condition that funds would be distributed to Yeshivos (Barak Goverment of ’99, Rabin in ’93, Peres in ’84). Granted it hasn’t happened more recntly, but that is more due to the anti-religious nature of the left (the real leftist parties refuse to allow UTJ in) than the unwillingness of UTJ.
If you don’t want to admit it, I’ll live. But that is the name of the game in Israel, and it is all under the direction of the Gedolim.
The most ridiculous comment comes from “gavra at work” .A “psak Din” to vote for Obama????? Are you hallucinating?? Plus, Romney never said he would cut all program-another lie by the democrats.
gavra-at-work: It is time to remember that O doesn’t give us anything!
Hashem does …
O must go!!
I agree with rabbiofberlin. The comment from “gavra at work” is absurd.
The Gedolim expect us to do our part to ensure we keep this sonei yisroel as our leader because apparently God has decided that the only source of funding for our Kollelim and Talmidei Chachamim is through Obama.
Now that you all agree, why do the gedolim in EY always base their vote on funding? Why are they so worried that funding will be cut off by the government, to the point where staying or leaving depends only on the almighty Shekel!!!
Now, if you all got off your idealist podium, you would realize that dollars are more important than social issues. You would understand the Gedolim of our times. The ends of Dollars and Kollel outweigh the means of staying or leaving the government, as well as voting for someone who will allow Toeivah marriage (R”L). The Gedolim of last generation, including Rav Miller, predicted this would happen if the men would not work. And it did.
Shoin.
Wolf:
I understand it to mean that Chazal made the wrong Halachic decision. None the less, since Halacha follows Chazal, Teva changes slightly so that the halachic definition of “grows from an egg” can no longer include Lice, and as such they are now correctly excluded. This may also include changing the Halachic definition, but since that is also defined by Chazal, even if they did not mean to change the Halachic definition, none the less it is changed.
“lice come from eggs but they don’t *really* come from eggs”
I always understood this answer to mean that Chazal was wrong, and Al Pi Teva of their time they should have made the other Halachic choice, but none the less Halachicly they are right. This is because Hashem makes/changes the Teva in an unnoticable way (that we do not understand) so that the Teva will follow the P’sak of Chazal.
Correct me if I am wrong?
Paul Ryan wants to cut off all funding to Yeshivos and Kollel Yungerlight. Romney would go along and cut much funding as well. The Gedolim in EY have paskened we should fight this in EY, and Hu HaDin in America.
I don’t see why vote for Obama as the question, I see the question as how can any Torah Yid who follows the Gedolim vote for Romney!!! There is a chiyuv (as per the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel) to vote for Pres. Obama, so that funding for Talmidei Chachamim & Kollel guys will not be cut off.