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Syag, no one said that it had to be each person’s own money. That’s what a tzibur, hefker beis din, hachnasas kallah and tzedakah are for. We have to get past the idea that “our” money is ours even if Torah’s needs aren’t being met. It goes both ways, an avreich’s learning isn’t “his,” it belongs to Klal Yisroel. What isn’t close to the truth about this?
Sam2, you seem to define a “working boy” as someone who *shouldn’t* be learning because Hashem cries over one who “cannot be oseik ba-Torah but does anyway.” How do we get from there to bachurim who exempt themselves and head off to college, where they somehow find the ability to learn, lehavdil?
Syag, that support is for Torah, not for the boy. Trying to organize all those “grumbling” parents sounds like hamrada. Look it up, it’s not a good thing to be involved in.
The girls are being trained right. They know that their future husband might have to go to work when their parents’ resources run out, but they won’t accept a boy who lischat’chila (before the shidduch) already identifies himself as “working,” “earning,” etc. As soon as more boys get this message, there will be less of a shidduch crisis.
Yichusdik, the pasuk in Yirmiyohu is 17:27:
?????-??? ?????????? ?????, ????????? ???-???? ??????????, ???????????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ????????????, ??????? ??????????: ??????????? ???? ?????????????, ????????? ?????????? ????????????–????? ????????
Oomis, that’s the MO way, and look at the results. The path to a kosher solution is to do more research, more caution, more involvement of rabonim, shadchanim, mesadrei kiddushin, etc. No shidduch should be redt until the boy’s learning and conduct are known for sure, until the girl’s family is checked out beyond doubt (including how they go about kvod Shabbos), and until the prospective FIL proves to a beis din that he can provide support (in EY, a dira). If this sounds “fanatic,” we already behave this way when we shop for a washing machine…
Practically speaking, the profusion of MO/RZ giyurim requires a level of surveillance over gerim that rules this out.
Wolf and Concerned Member, please don’t make it into an issue of personal freedom. Don’t we agree that yeshiva (and life) is about serving Hashem and sustaining Am Yisroel?
Yichusdik, Hashem wills everything and gives us free will too. Yirmiyahu warned us again and again but left the door open for tshuva at any time. Once he said that if only we’d stop carrying on Shabbos in Yerushayim it would be good enough. That was too much for us. So with the situation in EY today: the enemies are closing in, the economy is failing, and they’re going to draft our last line of defense, the bochurim?!
rabbiofberlin, Hashem is already closing the Zionist enterprise but as in Yirmiyahu He is giving them many signs to make them change their ways. If you compare Hashem’s actions to the Holocaust, it’s almost like comparing Him to H**tler ym”s. You didn’t mean to do that, did you?
With all the debate about exactly what constitutes darchei ha-emori and playing by the rules, is anyone here seriously arguing that it’s OK to participate in goyish sports?
In an ironic way, the challenges to what I wrote somehow prove the point. On each count, one can use one’s knowledge to learn out a heter or even deny that there’s a problem to begin with. But after all that, no one here would consider doing any of these things (sports, backgammon, etc.) in any way other than a brief diversion. Wolf, I played games in camp and in recess, and the rules were always “adapted” or just ignored because taking them seriously meant an inappropriately high level of involvement. You’re okay with a chess player as your baal koreh, but a grandmaster?
I don’t remember anything about yeshiva life that I had to be “not open and honest” about. If there’s something like that in your life, please work on correcting it. Also bear in mind that even if girls may have a misconception, your future FIL won’t, and he’s the one who will be supporting you. Finally, He Whose eyes ?????? ??? is even less prone to misconception….
The explanation given back then (I’m relying on memory) was that apart from the “chukoseihem” of the Emori (avoda zora), there are “darchei ha-emori” (“secular” goyish ways). These aren’t avoda zora but should be avoided anyway. It’s not specific to sports, it concerns products of goyish culture in general. Standing for the sirens in EY might be another example.
Wolf, Squeak, etc., I used bowling as a mashal because it was the one we had to deal with in shul. Other sports (in fact, the whole modern amusement industry) come with the same issues. Darchei ha-emori doesn’t relate to the game itself but to the customs that come along with it. What a given yeshiva allows for relaxation is the RY’s call. As for my being a kanoi, I wasn’t involved in the incident and don’t know how it was cleared up, except that the man apologized and moved to a different shul. There was no pashkvil, spitting, or rock throwing. Finally, it is pshat halacha that a tzibur doesn’t have to accept klei kodesh who violate its standards. Our tzibur doesn’t hold by kvias ittim for goyish games and saw his behavior as gneivas daas apart from the other problems.
Takahmamash and Zahavasdad, rolling a bowling ball isn’t assur. It just has to be done in a separate bowling alley where goyish music isn’t played, where it’s closed on Shabbos (I’m speaking of EY), where no one cares if you break the rules (bechutoseihem lo selechu), where there are no spectators (moshav leitzim), etc. All of which, if it’s done without bitul Torah and bitul zman. Joining a league makes it a sport, which comes with all the above problems plus mi-darchei ha-emori, which relates to goyish customs that sports tend to have. Even if one can sidestep all of this, he’s in a bad mar’is ayin situation. As for being “caught” at something “illegal,” he was baal koreh in a good shul during all that time and trampled on the tzibur’s standards without even asking them what they thought about it. Gneivas daas was illegal when last spotted.
Sam2 asked 3 months ago: “Darchei Ha’emori? (about why it’s assur to take part in sporting events as a player) How do you get Darchei Ha’emori?”
I didn’t get to it. The rav of my shul at the time mentioned it a few years ago when someone in our neighborhood was caught having joined a bowling league. It refers to adopting goyish customs and culture even when they don’t involve avoda zora r”l, like slapping palms etc. I wouldn’t dredge this up now except that RSR Hirsch zt”l says much the same thing in his peirush on this week’s parsha, and no one thinks of him as NK, extremist, machmir, etc.
Next year, it would be best to declare all three of the Zionist “observances” [???] off-limits for CR and for coverage. First, they really are. Second, even posting against them amounts to acknowledging their existence. Third, the gedolim pusseled them decades ago and any further commentary amounts to daas hediot challenging daas Torah.
First, my point is that the issur on mixed seating has nothing to do with whether boys can “restrain themselves,” it exists on its own and cannot be set aside on the grounds that “we are mature,” the women aren’t really dancing, etc. Second, by “oilem” I’m referring to those who are on the program, which by definition should be everyone who posts here. They are backed by countless examples of daas Torah holding that today, because of feminism, conservatives, MOs, and declining standards of conduct generally, things that could be excused a generation ago have become dangerous. So, saying that various gedolim allowed “x” in their time doesn’t create an everlasting heter or really a heter at all.
Back to mixed seating, according to where the oilem is holding today, it’s assur not only because of what it might lead to but in and of itself. It’s not a chumra but rather the main consideration in any public event and sometimes even in our homes. The nafka mina of this is that it doesn’t matter how mature we are, whether we can see women dancing or not, whether the previous generation allowed it, etc.
Yichusdik, my point is that today there are blogs and boards for all purposes. We agree that people who believe in toeva r”l shouldn’t post here. People who think Torah is a waste of time r”l shouldn’t post here. So MOs who still believe in the medina shouldn’t post here. It’s not a question of open mindedness because right and wrong aren’t “differing views.”
Allowing MOs to post and start topics is asking for trouble at any time and especially today and tomorrow. They’re doing what seems impossible: making NK look better and better. Maybe the answer is to require members to state who their rosh yeshiva and posek are before they are accepted.
I asked my rav if there’s really any difference between talking with the other gender and “talking” with them in cyber-print or not knowing whom you’re talking with because the “names” are gender-neutral. He sees it as a big pirtza on tznius, so I’ll be off this site until a way is found to determine posters’ gender.
OneOfMany – no, I said it’s not tznius for a non-male to join a yeshivish site. Masking one’s gender by using a gender-neutral name is even more problematic. And yes, I know the name I’m using is gender-neutral but I am male.
Spectrum got it right. Also, what’s assur in public is equally assur in our daled amos.
The names do not indicate which gender, allowing mingling to occur.
Is a yeshivish site really the right place for someone who includes “girl” in their name? How does it square with tznius,and doesn’t it create a problem for the males?
Sam2, we’re supposed to avoid dancing. Modern exercise accompanied by music is so close to dancing that only a dance expert could tell the two apart. I realize that there are many, many heters surrounding sefira and music but they shouldn’t be collected and flipped around like rebbe cards (and rebbe cards shouldn’t, either).
The heter-hunting in this thread isn’t pas. A heter is needed so that you don’t have to walk out of a public place if someone turns on music. But what respect is being given to halacha, minhag, and Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim z”l when we look for heters so that we can enjoy ourselves, exercise, etc.?
Agittayid, by the same logic treif meat has healthful ingredients, a Shabbos drive in the country can help one relax, a television can relieve stress at work, etc. Still, we gladly pass up on all of them. The same with sports, be it spectating or participating, and in fact for all goyish leisure culture. As for what’s mutar, that’s a question for a posek, not for the CR.
Why look for a psak at the CR when b”h we have rabonim? If it’s going to be daas hediot, the safest answer is that exercising to music is virtually dancing and that both shouldn’t be done on sefira.
We can’t take breaks from doing mitzvos by doing aveiros. We’re not taxi drivers who can put up a “not in service” sign. Indulging in goyish culture is no way for a Jew to take a break, if only because of maris ayin. Sports in particular are a problem because they bring out the worst in the goyim, not even the best. Boruch shepetarani.
MorahRach, throwing a baseball (or rolling a bowling ball, etc.) isn’t “so bad.” It’s just that one can’t do it, or watch others do it, without being over on important points of halacha, hashkafa, or both, causing Hashem anguish. Isn’t that reason enough to stay away from it? Here in EY no one who calls himself frum even tries to justify it.
Torah’s needs come first.
Sam2: bittul Torah, bittul zman, hayadayim yedei Eisav, moshav leitzim, lo sachoneim… Which one of them is “not inherently a negative”?
In 1982, the Zionist rabbi Tzefaniah Drori paskened exactly so, Southern Lebanon is EY and appropriate for Jews to settle in. It never got started because everyone knew the army wouldn’t allow it.
Yummy Cupcake, mingling is the act of being in a mixed setting, not the doing. Doing is an additional and separate problem.
It’s not about “what could happen.” It’s about the issur against mingling.
Zahavasdad, spot heterim were probably given to several rabonim to teach in YU. But the question here is about a family that is thinking about Stern College for their BY daughter. The implications for the girl are severe and they will affect the rest of the family too. BY’s chinuch might even be questioned. For what gain?
Decades of gedolim have expressed themselves about YU in one word, “assur,” or in three words, “against the Torah.” There’s a shidduch crisis on, isn’t there?
Not heimish brands and fresh fruit and vegetables.
10% of those thank you’s and smiles are okay. The rest are mostly minhag hagoyim and some of them have xian origins, making them kema’ase ha-emori.
Why drink Coca Cola at all. The company is a big sponsor of lifestyles that are not for anyone, least of all for yidden.
Soliek, it did happen in Beis Shemesh but it was done quietly. Certain girls who loitered in the wrong places were quietly taken off the shidduch list. Word about it spread where it needed to and behavior improved. A model for all communities.
Sam2, my source is Ma’ase Bereishis, where Adam and Chava were told what their roles are. Of course we should help our wives, but as chessed, not as a reversal of roles. And Gatesheader, avreichim sustain the world. We “working” people exist by their zchus. You can disagree with me, but what about Chazal and the rabonim down to our times?
What is there about “assur” that some of us fail to understand?
@Gatesheader — What non-working men did you mean? Not avreichim, I hope. They work plenty… A man who doesn’t learn *and* doesn’t work can’t solve that by “becoming” his wife and letting her “become” him r”l.
This would be harmless Purim-like amusement except that some people really do these celebrations…
Before a husband does housework he should be matneh that it’s for chessed (which it is). Otherwise, it’s a reversal of gender roles, pas nisht and probably assur.
CC is doing this to protect its bochurim. The “oilum” today holds that white shirts are for serving Hashem and colored shirts are for serving, um, others…. Bochurim who attend a yeshiva that allows colored shirts today will be rejected for kollels and shidduchim years later.