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What about work at HASC as a mother’s helper?
The owner of Wetson’s a (my belief) now-defunct treif burger joint, was one Mr. Wetanson, a Jew. Many Jews unfortunately went into treif businesses, both literally and figuratively. But when a place IS kosher, don’t put it down. There are kosher KFCs in E”Y, as well as McDonald’s (OK, maybe it is McDavid’s), and there used to be a kosher Nathan’s in Brooklyn. The possible reason for keeping the “treif” name, is to make the place marketable to ALL types of people to shop there, not just frum people. Do you go to kosher Dunkin’ Donuts?
How can anyone eat in a restaurant with the name of a disgusting transit system? I can hardly even breathe in the subway. “
The name of the restaurant is taken from the Sub(marine) sandwiches for which they are famous. Subs are so named because of their resemblance to actual submarines. “Subway” while a form of transit, is also a clever pun on the way to go to find these sub sandwiches.
Bochur, I don’t think we substantially disagree. I don’t believe I sounded vehement, but I do feel strongly about it, because my children were rbought up the way I was brought up, and that is to be considerate and well-mannered. So was my husband brought up like that, and despite what you would like to think, if you knew who he was, you would realize that he really IS one of a kind in the thoughtfulness department. It was recently our 34th anniversary of the night we became engaged. He went out and bought a card and a miniature cake, expressing his love and saying he would marry me all over again. I guarantee you most women would love that. Sorry to say, I did not think to do anything special to mark the occasion, other than to mention to our children that that day was THE day. But as I said, I need to work on myself. The people in my shul think he is a tzaddik, and one man told his wife (who told my daughter the other day) that my husband is the finest and msot thoughtful man he has ever met. I am not just saying empty words here. As I said, I am not nearly as good as he is. And he is exactly like his father, O”H, who took care of my invalid mother-in-law BY HIMSELF, for the last thirty years of her life, because he said it was his privilege.
I would not tell my kids to dump anyone, unless they themselves felt the person was not right for them. But I am fairly certain that they themselves would feel that a person who did not show eidelkeit and thoughtfulness, would not be the right person for them. I guess we must agree to disagree. Someday you will have your own Bochur24 B”EH, and maybe you will see a different perspective then.
Neither is good, but physical pain is more readily apparent, and will garner more sympathy. I know people who suffer from both, and they have expressed that the physical pain is worse, because it CAUSES emotional pain.
You can get a HEFTY fine for failure to shovel and salt, within 4 hours of the snow stopping(exception- the middle of the night).
I would bet that 95% of the frum Jews that LOVE their Kosher Goyish,chains would consider Thanksgiving “Chukas HaGoyim”.
“
To be factually accurate, Thanksgiving is actually a celebration of Chukas HaYehudim. The pilgrims took it directly from our Succos feasts. Governor Bradford even wanted Hebrew to be the language of the Colonies. He read and spoke it fluently.
Personally, I have no great faith in “references.” After all, what is someone who was specifically asked to be a reference, going to say about the boy or girl, except for the nicest of things? Granted, they might be worthy of those nice words, but you will learn nothing else.
TBT, your story is very telling (no pun intended). My husband and I, (and now our children), never leave a mess on our restaurant table. Sometimes we cannot actually clean everything up, but when we can, we do, and when we cannot, we leave the table as neatly as possible for the waiter or busboy to take care of it.
As a man is supposed to respect his wife more than he does himself (I presume that includes rabbonim also), it would make sense that they can and should do such mundane tasks as take out the garbage. I had this discussion once with my own Rov many years ago (from an entirely different discussion point), and he told me he takes out the garbage. I said, “REALLY, Rebbie!!??? But you are the Rov of the shul!” To which he replied, “Yes, but in my house I am the husband of my Rebbetzin.”
My basic rule is, whoever is able and available to do it at the moment when it needs to be done, should do it. No one should stand on ceremony. we all make the garbage, so we are all responsible for getting rid of it.
Sounds like someone I know……ME:)”
So how old ARE you….hmmm…? 😉
Truth be told, amein and thank you for your beautiful brochos. I have two married off, and three still waiting. Halevai we shpuld all see nachas from our families b’korov.
Light mayonnaise is not too bad for you, and the plus is that the vinegar in some mayonnaise actually helps to retard the growth of bacteria in the food in which it is mixed.
RB, your life B”H must be wonderful if the MOST despicable thing you have heard of is a kosher Subway. Really. If you think hard, I am sure you can find more despicable things to be concerned about than sandwiches.
Now I was going to argue that this is just going too far. First we have separate swimming hours, then we have separate buses from Monsey/Lakewood, and now the SUBWAYS are ALSO going to be separate, so they can be kosher? (yes, I AM kidding).
Has your husband ever done anything that was discourteous”
Never ONCE in the 34 years I have known him (got engaged 34 years ago on Tu B’shvat), has he EVER been discourteous to ANYONE, least of all, me. Oh, we have gotten angry with each other over the years, but he has never done anything rudely or obnoxiously. I cannot say the same for myself, but I am working on it 😉
As to the example you mentioned about the Middle Eastern belcher – Bochur, we are not Arabs in the Middle East, and in any case, behavior that is acceptable in some place else, does not make it acceptable to others. You are an intelligent person, I can see that. But you are arguing about nonsense right now. The bottom line is that MOST people expect, deserve, and are happy to see others act in ways which are pretty much universally established here as being the right thing to do. If a girl truly does not want you to walk her to her door, she IS acting in a way which most girls (who have not been brainwashed into thinking it is untzniusdig somehow)would find it inconsiderate on the part of the boy. If she fails to say thank you to him, then most guys would probably find her unappreciative. If two people do not act in an accepted minimally considerate manner when they are dating and presumably trying to impress each other, then there is no hope they will do so after marriage. I am not a bigot; I am not arrogant (if you knew me personally, you would know this to be emes). I am however, a strong proponent of derech eretz, and I see it lacking in a spectacular way among the present young generation. I am not pointing a finger of fault at anyone. Just making an observation.
And finally, please address my curious question (This is my third invocation, and your ignoring it means that you either don’t have a good answer or you are ignoring me which is discourteous 😉 ): What are the top 5 things that you think are important to look for in a guy you are dating? And, once again, be specific please. None of “He should be a mentsch” since that is too broad. If you want to make it 10 things so you have more to work with, that’s fine. “
Either I have not read your posts, or did not realize they were addressed to me, as I don’t recall seeing these questions. I am married, so clearly I am not looking for ANYTHING in anone I am dating. 😉 However, to answer your question (courteously) :
1)kind/ baal chessed/thoughtful
2)learned
3)have simchas hachayim
4)good sense of humor
5)strong love of family/devotion shown to both sides of the family
6)love of children of all ages
7)strong kesher with Rov, but still thinks for himself
8)in the case of a girl for my son, all the above, and also an appreciation for chazzanus
9)clean and put-together, attractive to my child
10) Last, but not least, truly loves and values my child
And NOW I’m hungry. THANKS A LOT!!!!
I wonder if this cake could successfully be baked in a bundt pan? I would NEVER leave out cloves or allspice. They add so much flavor to my apple kugels, cranberry relish, and most especially they are the secret ingredient in my prune filling for the hamantashen. A little goes a long way, though.
“Something else I’ve seen – a bachur is home for Shabbos, and corrects his father at the Shabbos table in a very superior manner. Since when is it even permitted, much less simple derech eretz, to “correct” your father/mother openly in public”
Yes, I have seen this, too. The boys come home from 2 years of learning in E”Y, and all of a sudden they are re-arranging the kitchen and throwing out things that are in the pantry. I highly respect the Rov who instructed his talmidim NEVER to do this when they go home, that it is insulting to the kovod of their parents, and they have no right to upset the family dynamic.
In a home that is not Cholov Yisrael for example, the boy may ask his mother if she could get that for him along with the other household foods when she is shopping, but he cannot throw out her C”S or demand that she only use products under a hechsher that HE likes.
To correct a parent, is not only oveir their kovod, but also the mitzvah of “Ish Imo V’Aviv Tira-u.” There is a way to get one’s point across without sounding arrogant or smug. When that is not done in that way, then I cannot respect such a bochur.
Re: smoking – I can respect the Torah a bochur knows, and even respect him, if he is a mensch. But I cannot, will not, and do not, respect the choice he makes to inhale a well-known poison in his lungs on a regular basis, and then exhale it into the air that the rest of us are forced to breathe along with him.
May ALL people who are looking for their proper shidduch, find them in record time.
I like the list that 1dayatatime posted; it is very much on par with what I want for my as yet unmarried children. I would add for my son, a girl who appreciates chazzonus, because he is VERY into it. He davens for the omud for the Yomim Noraim (among other times of the year), and it is very choshuv to him. His wife would have to be on board with hearing him practicing or even just listening to chazzanim, in the best of all worlds. If it were to irritate her, this would not be the best match for him. I would think that it would be nice for him if she had a nice singing voice, too. He also is extremely serious about working with the mentally disabled, both young and elderly, so it would help if she were in a similar or related field. She cannot be hesitant about his inviting one of “his kids” over to the house.
For my girls, they need men of good character and substance, who are gentlemen and gentle men. People who are slow to anger, and quick to forgive. Who will enjoy working in the kitchen with them, and enjoy parenting. My son-in-law is very much that type, and my daughter is blessed to have found such a wonderful man to bring into our family. B”H his family feels the same about her. And that is my final serious requirement and hope. That all my children will have in-laws who will love and value them as we do, and who will be a wonderful extension of our family. So far, so good.
In all cases, the spouses should complement each other well(compliments, are good, too), and be each other’s best support system. They should udnerstand the value of compromise, and know when compromise is not called-for. they should not take each other or their Yiddishkeit for granted. Above all, I pray that all my children will be zochim to build a bayi ne’eman b’Yisroel, filled with Torah, laughter, many children, and lots of love always. (And an occasional invite to dinner by them, wouldn’t hurt, either).
I think the single onstacle to shidduchim is people who do not really SPEAK to each other, or hear what they are saying. Communication is a fundamental element of any successful relationship, social, business, family, educational,etc. If you have expectations and are not communicating them, how is the other person supposed to automatically read your mind (with the exception of showing basic good manners, whcih everybody should have been taught as a child)?
Nfgo3 – your remark that a “good chiropractor is an oxymoron,” was off the mark and also sounded a bit rude. Most medical doctors are full of hubris. I have medical doctors who not only acknowledge the benefit of quality chiropractic care, but have sent patients to them. There are poor practicioners in EVERY field. There are also outstanding ones. Several members of my family are or were chiropractors. Each one was an oustanding example of the profession and helped MANY, MANY people to get immediate pain relief when medical intervention and pill after pill did not help them at all.
When I was pregnant, we were having a simcha at my parents’ house and I had an acute and sudden attack of sciatica. It was excruciating, and I could not get up off the floor (it literally knocked me off my feet). My brother is a chiro and he gave me an adjustment right there on the floor, and in literally ten seconds I was completely pain-free. It was miraculous. Particularly as I could not take any pain meds then, it was a bracha that such a simple action as an adjustment, could help me. Some claims they make are outrageous, but some doctors’ claims and actions are equally outrageous. You have to know who is a true practicioner and who is just a quack. That goes across the medical board.
” Don’t you think schools should teach shidduchim skills so people can judge others on their true worth and not on how clumsily they navigate the world of dating? “
That would depend ENTIRELY on who it is who is doing the teaching?, would it not?
“well put (as usual), Oomis “
It’s so nice to be appreciated… Thanks, always here.
“A king sized bed in a frum publication”
Would you mind telling me what is not tzniusdig about that? Are you saying it is ok to show an ad for twin beds but not a king size? Halacha requires two separate bed at certain times, it does not require that both of them be tiny. If they have room for a Kingsize, kol hakavod, as long as they adhere to halacha, what business is it of anyone’s? Sometimes people go too far int heir quest for lack of tznis. We have enough material to keep us legitimately concerned, why look for tzoros in every corner?
Do you only respect perfect people? “
Seriously???? iyhbu, I am really not certain why you posted that remark to me. Have I ever at any time given the indication to you or anyone else that I do not try to be respectful to everyone?
My “comma” remark was somewhat tongue in cheek, but simply pointing out that the sentence could be understood in two very different ways, based on the lack of punctuation (btw, that is a lesson for all of us about the importance of properly punctuating a written sentence, in order to prevent a misunderstanding). That was not a suggestion that the poster was imperfect.
“I keep posting this over & over again”
That does not make you a doctor, necessarily, and perhaps I have never seen those specific posts. I don’t read everything on this site. That being said, the fact that you read something, does not make it the prevailing conventional wisdom, nor does it mean that it is the case for most people.
I have never met anyone suffering from bronchitis who did not require at least one and sometimes a double course of antibiotics, as the condition can last a very LONG time. I was never put on an inhaler, thankfully, but my daughter was. we still both had to take a Z-pack, and i ended up on something even stronger after that.
Pesach time where my knees would not bend. I was in agony.’
You have no ideas how empathetic I am to your situation. Refuah shelaima.
1dayatime, I meant to ask you, is there a reason why your posts cannot be typed in a typical manner, i.e., longer lines in each sentence? I keep thinking you are posting poetry…
Also, exactly what is it that you are expecting that you are not getting? Could you be clear about that?
Good luck to you, 1day. A girl who is so insecure and fearful of rejection that she does not know how to say please and thank you, tell her date that she had a good time, hold up her end of a conversation, (if in a more than a three date situation) cannot think of something nice to do for her date, just might be too young to be dating.
“oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?” (Bochur 24)
What was the question?
L’toeles can only be to prevent harm to another person. This is why L”H and MSh”R are such serious aveiros. Sometimes one cannot be forgiven for this, because the harm is irreparable. I would be sick with grief if I did this to someone, and never be able to forgive myself. The person involved needs to do EVERYTHING in his/her power to rectify the egregious wrong that was done, knowing they may not be forgiven for it. And let that be a lesson for us all.
bpt, the soup question is the LEAST of the naarishkeiten!
I wanted to add, I would give almost ANYTHING to be able to spend just one more yom tov with my parents (my in-laws were not frum, so we reserved the chol hamoed part for visits with them). My parents died 17 years ago (within a couple of months of each oterh), and my children really lost out as a result, not growing up with Bubby and Zaydie. Parents are not around forever. Don’t let this be an issue. Try to find a compromise. Maybe invite THEM to YOU.
I could not agree more, Eclipse!
If you are getting “not much” in return (whatever THAT might be that you are expecting to get), then perhaps the young lady is also ill-mannered.
I think too many of the guys are hung up on the word “chivalry.” They are thinking of knights of old, when what they should really be thinking of, is dates gone cold. Good manners are never out of style, whatever the situation. If you feel you must continuously argue the point or justify your insensitivity, then you need to take a long, hard look at how you behave on a date, and see if maybe it is preventing you from moving forward in a relationship that has meaning.
It is normal for many of us. We are unconsciously picking up signals from the person’s facial expressions and demeanor, which make us feel uncomfortable. Some of us are better at “reading” someone than others are, but when you get that negative vibe, there is a reason.
do you respect yeshiva guys that smoke? prob not right?
It probably is NOT right that they smoke (next time, punctuate your sentences, I figure you really meant to put a comma after the word “not”). Actually, there is no probably about it. It is antithetical to the Torah that they are learning, that they smoke, flying in the face of everything that we know today about the hazards of first-hand AND second-hand smoking.
Good question. I think that it’s because the older we get, the less time we know we have left. It’s all relative. The same school year that drags on for our children, goes by much too quickly when we know we will have to figure out what to do with them during the summer! And WHAT????? It’s almost Pesach AGAIN???????
Feel better, Aries AND Eclipse. When I had bronchitis two years ago (I actually had it twice in one season), I literally could not sleep, because the coughing was so serious it choked me every time I lay down. Antibiotics cleared it up both times, but I was foolish and didn’t want to see the doctor at first “for just a stupid cough.” My family got on my case, I made an appointment, and my medically conservative doc, IMMEDIATELY put me on something strong for the bronchitis, and a powerful cough supressant for my non-productive cough (THAT only helped a little).
Aries, I also don’t get the correlation between Miami and antibiotics.
Health, are you a doctor? My bronchitis was never viral, and neither was anyone else’s whom I know. We all had to go on antibiotics, and I am not one who loves to take medicine, so I didn’t do it without being absolutely sure it was needed.
“I’m trying to understand this; how does apologizing in advance excuse rude, obnoxious behavior? “
You seriously misunderstood my point. I am NOT rude or obnoxious to the person. I am letting the service rep know in advance that he or she has a very upset person on the phone and that any upset that they potentially might hear in my voice is not directed at them, but at the situation. I let them know that I don’t meant to yell, though I neve have, but that I have a legitimate complaint. Usually they are really helpful to me, especially as I have acknowledged that I know they are not responsible.
My primary tafkid (after eved Hashem), is wife, mother, and awesome Bubby. After that, I am a retired rabbinic secretary, and was an editor and columnist of our Shul newspaper.
While it is true that the world exists for the sake of the Torah, learning Torah does not exempt any of us from acting with fiscal responsibililty for our families.
NLH – if you are a newlywed, you are right, it’s expected. But if not, simply tell the families on both sides that you made other plans this year. Unless they are very elderly, have no other kids or friends and will be utterly alone, there is no reason why you cannot spend yom tov in your own home. Is there room for compromise, like coming the first days, but not the last, or vice versa?
Eclipse ::::APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE::::
Bochur, you are right that SOME things are generational. Good manners however, are not one of those things. Derech Eretz kadma l’Torah, don’t forget. Those girls who say they don’t care, have most likely been brought up without certain social niceties and courtesies. They are likely to be the types of girls who think there is nothing wrong with yapping on their cell phones in a restaurant, or that it’s fine to allow their toddlers to run amok in public places, while they sit and chat with friends.
You’re right, I am in my 50s, but that has nothing to do with the expectation that a boy should treat a girl with thoughtfulness on their date. My Rov ZT”L was a European Rov. I never saw him fail to open the door for his Rebbetzin when I was in their presence. If you think good manners ever go out of fashion, then you should think twice. And so should the girl, because they are losing out by lowering their expectations for their dates ( and potentially future husbands)to treat them with courtesy. Women have gotten used to men being crass and thoughtless, and some girls are just immature and clueless today and think the BOYS will not like them if they expect the boys to be more thoughtful.
I HAVE spoken to many young women about this; to the daughters of my friends, to shul members, etc., and the VAST and overwhelming majority of them think that a guy who doesn’t walk them to their door is a jerk. To be fair to you, not all of them agree on the car door issue, but most felt he should at least open the door when they are getting into the car, but not necessarily when they are getting out. I say go for both. It makes you look good, especially if you do it sufficiently quickly and without fanfare, so the girl does not have that awkward “what should I do” moment. And if their MOTHERS know you are courteous, it scores really big points. JMABO (just my ancient bones’ opinion).
You’re a saint “
Halevai 😉
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!! But by all means, enjoy it if you are.
Sapphire, let me state for the record that I can say anything I want about the way I feel about food. P’tcha is not a food. It is the extract of the bone marrow or some such gelatinous glop from calves’ bones, boiled and mixed with a lot of garlic. It looks disgusting, and I am certain the first person to make this delicacy probably had nothing to eat but the bones, so he or she tried to make a soup of it, and this was the end result. If you like it, KOL HAKAVOD. I do not like it Sam I am.
OK, this actually IS something perhaps women know better. If a woman plucks her eyebrows to shape them, the bulb end of the root under the skin comes out with the tweezer. Sometimes the hair never grows back after repeated plucking. That is because the root has been damaged and it dies. Thus there cannot be any hair growing from that root. The shaver that pushes the skin back and pulls at the hair before cutting it, can pluck at the hair, and works more like a straight razor/tweeezer combination, so it potentially can destroy the hair. As I said, this is how the specific shaver’s methodology was explained to my son by his rebbie in E”Y and then to me by my son.
edited
Many guys are ignorant of many things before their Chosson Shmooze and the first few months of marriage. And guess what?! so are girls!!”
And why exactly have their fathers not set a better example for them by treating their mothers with courtesy, and why have their mothers failed to teach them social niceties? Your last line, is exactly why I admonished both the guys AND the girls.
My sons would never fail to show derech eretz to a date, and my daughters have never failed to say thank you and have a good night, even when the date was less than enjoyable. Is it REALLY sticking in your craw to open a car door and walk a girl to her door?
Bochur, I try hard not to flip out about anything. Try and do the same. 🙂
BTW, after 34 years of marriage, my husband STILL opens the door for me. EVERY time. believe me, most women would be happy if their husbands showed them the same consideration, or at least, wanted to.