Forum Replies Created
She’s probably preparing the family meal, which is her primary duty. So she’s doing the right thing. Compliment her.
Oftentimes they’ll dress tzniusdik on the date even though at other times they’ll sometimes go out non-tzniusdik.
I got married! The shidduch crisis is over
Lemme guess… you became akuperma’s wife?!
DovidBT: Shmiras Einayim is a law not just a fence. (Even had it been a fence, fences are binding not optional.)
RY23, attending a gym that has both genders utilizing it at the same time is prohibited by Jewish law.
Ubiq: “Its bad when all the research is separated from actually getting married”
Why/how is that bad?
“To paraphrase, Differetn expectations for where dating is supposed to lead .”
I asked you how if the Litvish change their system to be more like the Modern Orthodox, as you proposed that the Litvish allow boys and girls to directly hookup at weddings and other events. How’s “different expectations” explain why the Litvish should partially switch to the MO model?
What’s this business about “would feel more comfortable in an all-male gym”? Going to a non-all male gym is forbidden by Jewish law.
DY: Can you explain in more detail how a typical American Litvish marriage differs so much from a typical American Chasidish marriage?
Ubiq: What is “the bad part of chasidish dating” that you refer to? If it is that they research so much (far more than the Litvish) before seeing each other, how can you say it is bad if the system works well for them? In fact, they don’t have the shidduch crisis nearly to the extent as the Litvish have it.
And the MO do not have less if a shidduch crisis than the Litvish do (in fact you could argue they have it even worse), so how does your proposal that the Litvish adopt many aspects of the Modern Orthodox dating system, such as guys and gals hooking up at meals, weddings and events, going to help the Litvish when it isn’t helping the MO have a better marriage system than the Litvish? What leads you to believe such changes would be beneficial to the Litvish?
DY: Why would American Litvish style bochurim in terms of sholom bayis have it differently than American Chasidish bochurim in terms of sholom bayis, it they both followed the same system?January 21, 2019 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665831
TLIK: Perhaps I overlooked your suggestion, but what, in detail, solution do you propose for the problem you describe?
Yeled is a not-for-profit?!
Me12345: 4″ could be part of the discussion, but I would suggest being more inclusive than just that narrow issue.
Mammele, both examples might be difficult, but doable. “Very difficult” can imply close to practically undoable, which is incorrect imo.
How is Yeled not paying for the property?
“I think cutting down the gap is a very difficult thing to do.”
It doesn’t appear to be very difficult to do for the Chasidim.
Amil: Any one of what you cite might be an example.
One man’s bad humor are another man’s parody.
Now the girls are in the freezer.
The rabbonim who advocate closing the age gap came to advocate that only after askonim brought it to their attention. Perhaps those same askonim ought to petition the rabbonim to more forcefully dissuade couples from getting engaged if there’s an age gap?
Takes2: Who says the kiddushin isn’t chal? As long as they were both aware of the situation prior to the kiddushin it is chal.
DY: Wouldn’t public criticism of the concept (not the people) by rabbonim be helpful in discouraging and reducing the incidences of age gap marriages, thereby greatly alleviating the crisis?January 21, 2019 10:44 am at 10:44 am in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665388
Naftush II: The only thing the freezer is designed and aimed for is to keep young gentlemen focused on their Limud Torah rather than taking away from that endeavor by their engaging in shidduch involvement. There’s no other “human engineering” intended regarding introducing guys and gals to each other, that you seem to be referring to.
DY: Should communities shun those who marry a spouse with a notable age gap, due to the societal crisis such action causes? Or if not shun the individuals, at least be publicly very critical of the concept of marriages with a notable (what “notable” is would have to be defined) age gap.
If not, why not?
funnybone, a shoita can’t give a Get, so suffice to say I think the divorce rate will be below average.January 20, 2019 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm in reply to: Letter from HaGaon HaRav Aharon Feldman Regarding the Machloke in Eretz Yisroel #1665126
Reb Toi, any rebuttal to Rav Feldman shlita?January 20, 2019 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1665069
The Chareidi world has one of the smallest divorce rates of any society.
ubiq: Your math is bad. I would otherwise explain it to you if not for the fact that it’s been explained extensively here for years, so saying it one more time is certainly going to fall on deaf non-understanding ears.
Do they have such things outta town?
Syag, plus everyone has a zivug, a bashert, from 40 days before birth. So it cannot be that there’s even one Yid ever who cannot get married. Correct?
Whoever agrees that the age gap is a significant cause of a disparity resulting in a larger number of girls in shidduchim than boys, resulting in a constant percentage of girls being unable to ever marry, must by definition agree that to mostly or at least partially correct that crisis the following two steps will significantly help, if not they’re being absolutely critical to fix the problem:
1. Boys getting married notably younger than the current trend.
2. Boys marrying girls their own age, rather than an average of being three years older than their wife.
It seems apparent than both these steps could be much better accomplished, if not perhaps the only way to implement them on a consistent basis in the future, is for far more parental involvement in choosing shidduchim’s timeline (age) and partner (spouse).January 20, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1664839
“not everyone that goes through Lakewood can adapt outside of Lakewood”
CA: What does that mean?
“Anyhow, I looked it up. Apparently, trying to close the gap by focusing on the older girls didn’t make much if a dent, because for the most part, the boys are still marrying the younger girls.”
DY: Where did you glean this information?January 20, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm in reply to: Freezer-Burnt: Most boys unprepared for dating or married life. #1664797
The idea that either boys or girls are more unprepared for marriage than the opposite gender is, simply put, a bubbe maaisa.
I tried to point out good and bad in each.
MDG: Please point out where you pointed out the bad about OOT.
Did you learn the Rambam?
That’s right, MDG, I asked people for some very open thoughtful opinions. And if some folks post critical opinions that are incorrect, I certainly will come back with extensive essays why they’re wrong.
Herr Nur mein teire OOT Rabbosai, you’re jealous with envy of the quality and quantity of Torah Yiddishkeit in town. But that’s okay; it’s actually a good thing. We’re supposed to be jealous of others’ Mitzvos. The problem only arises when you try to paper over your inadequacies and insecurities by trying to knock those better than you down a peg or two to lower them to your level. Instead bring yourselves up to your betters’ level.
Unfortunately when people visit out of town a common theme they’ll sometimes hear from out of towners, unsolicited I might add, (and C”V by no means from all or even most OOTers, but certainly common enough that it is a constant recurrent) is how they disparage Torah Yidden from New York. Just out of the blue. Instead of doing that try to increase your local Torah, Avoda and Gemilas Chasodim.
Ah Gutte Erev Shabbos!
That there’s more Torah and Gemilas Chasodim in town is not debatable. Anyone with eyes can see the tremendous of Torah with the incomparable number of yeshivos and butei medrashim in town, back to back — often multiple on a single city block in densely frum neighborhoods — literally hundreds and hundreds of such mekomei kodesh always full of many Yidden loudly learning Torah, saying Tefilos and having uncountable number of Shiurim all hours of the day and night, literally seven days a week.
And the same applies with Gemilas Chasodim. It’s hardly a secret the numerous 24/7 Chesed organizations that operate in town covering the gauntlet of Jewish daily life from A to Z. Hatzalah, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Misaskim, numerous Bikur Cholims, all sorts of gemachs, free loan societies, tzedaka organizations, helplines, hotlines, health services, etcetera etcetera.
The only possibly arguable point is Avoda. But with their being so many Rabbonim (including multiple places with rabbonim reachable 24 hours/day), Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbe’s, Gedolim, and so many plain poshete Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos than anywhere else in all of Chutz L’aretz, even in Avoda no where else holds a candle in coming anywhere close.
Is it then any wonder that so many thousands upon thousands upon thousands of former out of towners moved in town which is now their home?
TryingToStayCalm makes an excellent point. Out of town people are often less energetic about religious life. Some out of towners, like my friend MDG does above, mistakenly dismiss this as merely being “outwardly religious’ not realizing or accepting that this is typically real ehrlichkeit and a truly felt and lived higher level of Torah life. But it is, despite the OOTers misimpression.
There truly is a higher standard and level of daily life of Torah, Avoda and Gemilas Chasodim in town than elsewhere.
ubiq: What’s beshows have to do with anything? How do you think shidduchim were made until World War I in Europe and in the Sephardic lands? It wasn’t boy meets girl, falls in love, gets married. It wasn’t even shadchan redts shidduch, couple goes on dates to local venues, decides whether to marry. No. For the most part from the time of the churban Beis HaMikdash until World War I the parents would make most of the decisions. Who their children could consider for marriage. And who their children will see. Then the the children would have a short meeting or two and if there were no major objections, and the children were quite young to even know any reason to object, it would be a Mazal Tov!
The goyim didn’t do things that much differently from that either.
Yes, there were a minute amount of exceptions, but for the vast amount of society that was more or less “the system”.
Once boys started picking and choosing, they picked usually girls as young as they could get and often frowned on anything older than they could otherwise get, even being disinclined to consider girls their own age.
MDG: There’s no differences in materialism, showiness, or honesty specifically attributable to in town versus out of town where one is more prevalent than the other. You’ll find all of those in equal measure both in town and out of town.
The Rambam says Christianity is A”Z mamish. And Islam is not A”Z.
Is Lakewood (and Monsey) considered to be out of town in the frum community?
Last I checked Torah Judaism says Shemona Esrei L’Chuppa. And that’s the age to be married by, not the age to start thinking about marriage.
Trump is doing very well. The economy is doing well. The Russia investigation is a farce. He’s had a major accomplishment revamping America’s tax laws. He’s the best friend Jews have had in the Oval Office in well over a century.
I wonder if it is even possible to eliminate the age gap in a society where men choose which woman they will marry. After all, you’ll need to convince most men to choose to marry a somewhat older woman when they have the ability to choose a younger woman.
As opposed to a society where, for the most part, someone other than the couple choose who will marry who. Like by the Chasidim.
So the Litvaks are going to be stuck with the age gap, and its consequences, unless they virtually fully adopt the Chasidish dating/marriage model.
Klal Yisroel used to virtually across the board follow what’s today known as the Chasidish dating/marriage model until about a hundred or so years ago. In fact, almost all goyim did as well. The switch to the love/marriage/choose-your-own-girl model got us stuck with the age gap.
RY23, I was going to write that some people to do trade ins to prevent that from happening, but then I realized some folks would get offended by not seeing the humor in it.
It would help get people on board if you could somehow demonstrate in a compelling way that so very many more frum women remain single (never married) into their 40s and older than guys in the same age range.
NDG: In the sense of a) we speak almost every day b) we’re in touch often c) we’re in touch occasionally d) we’re in touch rather infrequently e) we’re nebech never in touch.
lot112: Why haven’t they met or otherwise communicated?
takah: Perhaps they mistakenly assume the same, that you’re uninterested. Perhaps an occasional phone call will rekindle interest.
akuperman: You don’t think you can be close to cousins who are geographically far but emotionally close?
CTL: Why not your 1st and 2nd cousins as well?