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i say it is a minhag shtus because it causes a lot of strife and shalom bayis problems because of the tension it creates for the family.
Any family which can’t handle keeping gebrokts has much bigger problems.
The only question I hear is why he didn’t just say tzarich iyun directly on the kol bo.
What’s shver with trying to shtim the Psikta and Yerushalmi with nashim somchos reshus?
ROB, I’m puzzled as to why you think what he wrote earlier is his maskana. I quoted his conclusion. His concluding words are “??? ?? ??????”.
Is that not clear?
And I don’t know about you, but even assuming that “yuhara” is only a mild critique (and I don’t know why you assume that), I wouldn’t want to be subject to even a mild critique by the Levush or the Rema.
Is it not reasonable because he is arguing with Rishonim/Acharonim?
Yes, but it’s more than that. He says tzorich iyun on the Rema; it’s one thing to say a pshat not in accordance with the rishonim, it’s quite another to ask a kashya on the Rema for not doing so.
Also, if he means to argue on the Kol Bo, how can he ask on the Rema based on the Kol Bo?
Furthermore, R’ Chaim never said a sevara to argue on guf naki; why would there be a tzorich iyun on the Kol Bo?
???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??
????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????
Since the B”Y/K”B are clearly going with guf naki, and the Rema, even according to R’ Chaim, is going with their pshat in the sugya, how is it shayach to ask on him from the Targum Yonoson?
As an aside, if he’s saying a pshat independent of the standard mehalach in the sugya, why mention the Gr”a?
Now according to R’ Chaim the reason why they protested was much more basic – it’s an issur of lo yihyeh kli gever al isha.
Do you really think R’ Chaim is coming to argue on the Kol Bo, and with that to ask a tzorich iyun on the Rema? This is the lashon of the Bais Yosef:
??? ??? ?? (??’ ??) ??? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? (??’ ?????? ??’ ?) ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? (??) ????? ?? ???? (????? ?? ????) ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ????? ??????? (?”? ????) ????? ??????? (???? ??? ??) ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ????? ???????:
To say that R’ Chaim is arguing is not reasonable.
the Targum Yonasan holds that it’s an issur of lo yihyeh kli gever al isha BECAUSE we don’t say ???? ?????? ????
That part, I understand.
and that this is the reason for the man d’amar in the psikta that says that the chachamim protested Michal.
That part, I have difficulty with, since Tosafos and others learn it’s because of guf naki. Why should R’ Chaim have a tzorich iyun on the Rema for paskening like Tosafos and the Kol Bo as explained by the Bais Yosef?
Golfer, I said it’s a shtickle raya because although the Gemara does blame some part of her bad behavior on her parents, that doesn’t mean it’s the only factor.
So, no, when I see l”a a child who’s OTD, I don’t automatically place full blame on the parents, but as a parent myself, I can learn how important my job as a role model is.
I would like to mention a few kashyas I have on the pshat from R’ Chaim shlit”a. I would appreciate if anyone has any possible teirutzim.
At the beginning of the piece,
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40793&st=&pgnum=6
he quotes from Targum Yonoson that there is an issur of lo silbash for a woman to wear tallis and tefillin, since there is no mitzvah whatsoever. On this basis, he asks on the Rema why, since we hold like Rabbeinu Tam that women can perform mitzvos asei shehazman grama, should there be a problem of lo silbash.
He also mentions that the Levush also refers to the issur of lo silbash.
1) Even if there is an issur of lo silbash (technically, lo yihyeh kli gever al isha), why would that preclude an additional problem of guf naki? Why make a second machlokes about that?
2) The Bais Yosef he quotes assers based on a Kol Bo, and the reason brought is clearly guf naki. Why would there be a kashya on the Rema, whose issur is based on guf naki, regardless of the fact that we pasken like Rabbeinu Tam? Even were we to assume that the Targum Yonoson’s problem of lo silbash somehow is exclusive of guf naki, we are not going like the T”Y anyhow, but rather like the K”B, based on the P’sikta and Yerushalmi.
3) The Levush in Hilchos Tefillin
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14586&st=&pgnum=37&hilite=
clearly assers based on guf naki. Why does R’ Chaim put him together with the Targum Yonoson?
The Levush refers to the issur of lo yilbash only in Hilchos Tzitzis.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14586&st=&pgnum=22
If we want the Levush and Targum Yonoson to be in agreement, it would seem to make more sense to say that the T”Y (which is on the passuk of lo yih’yeh in parshas Ki Seitzei)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14085&st=&pgnum=261
is giving an example of lo yih’yeh, but not limiting the issur of a woman wearing tefillin to lo yih’yeh.
It’s also worth noting, in context of the broader discussion, that the Levush (Hilchos Tzitzis) is against women wearing a tallis.
??? ?”? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? (??”? ??? ?”? ???? ?’). ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???????, ?? ????? ????, ??? ??? ????, ?? ????. ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??. ??? ?? ??????
A shtickle raya to popa:
:???? ??
?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??????
If you want to bring it back, post a d’var Torah on it. It’ll go on the front page. There are about thirty posts on the last page of that thread, over the span of more than a year, and some of those posts are not divrei Torah. How could you call a thread, which is so rarely posted on, the “nightly” d’var Torah thread?
I don’t know that we’re supposed to translate “??? ???” as “anyone with a brain”.
Maybe they’re not ???? ???.
It’s already becoming a popular question to ask for shidduchim interrogations.
Dear Eli,
Your poem is magnificent,
You’re a chip off the old block.
Please believe me when I say,
I was’t trying to mock.
Your father is wonderful,
and his poems a delight.
No offense was meant,
when I sat down to write.
I never even saw,
the original ditty.
So please forgive me,
for trying to be witty.
So please send your father
my sincerest apology,
because insulting another,
is not in our theology.
No, don’t. You might end up replacing the blower motor resistor when the problem is the motor itself.
What a great poem
from our esteemed member,
who calls himself, oddly,
Yashi and Pember.
He goes after “Bolevnik”,
who writes insecurely,
of readers who write,
but make their rhymes poorly.
He does so with humor,
while taking his own advice,
his cadence is perfect,
his rhymes are precise.
(While driving on the Goethals,
I tried to rhyme with “umbrage”,
But I could hardly concentrate,
while crossing that dumb bridge.)
A message from Chatzkel,
to one Rocky Zweig,
If the FJJ rejects you,
maybe just shveig?
The words that I write here,
are purely in jest,
have a gut voch, and until next week –
hatzlocha, and all the best!
My question regarding extenuatinghad to do with the permission granted
Yes. I was responding that not only are there not extenuating circumstances to allow it, there is very good reason to want to keep things status quo (even besides for the halachic mesorah).
I believe we are in full agreement.
Would you agree thay you are defending it?
No, Gavra, you can’t compare an individual’s safek treifa to setting precedent for a further step towards egalitarianism.
Apushutayid, I think Rabbi Twersky actually made a good case for there being extenuating circumstances to asser, although it’s not necessary to stretch here to maintain the basic halacha here, which is that it’s assur.
PAA, you are indeed advocating for women to be allowed to wear tefillin, and bringing more mareh m’komos of shittos which we don’t have a mesorah to follow doesn’t help your case.
I see that you addressed this by attacking the analogy, by my point remains.
I know Rabbi Twerski tries to explain what it is not, but does not explain what it is.
Also irelevant. If there was nobody competent, we would have to leave the accepted psak as is, and not change it.
Can a Shul Rov no longer Pasken Shailos and must ask every question that comes to him to Rav Shteinman?
This is not a chicken shailah. This has global ramifications, and if Rabbi Harczstark doesn’t realize this, that would prove to me that Rabbi Twersky’s and nishtdayngesheft’s assessment of his competence is correct.
Gavra,
P.S. That is not to say I agree, but to explain why Rabbi Twerski’s points MAY not be valid in this case. Did he speak to the girls in question so that he knows their specific intent?
Irrelevant. Rabbi Twersky makes his point despite being dan them l’kaf z’chus.
I am rereading the thread, because I was responding to the “narrow” (?) point of what the halacha actually is, and I noticed a couple of posts from PAA to which I will respond first.
All I am doing is providing women who want to wear Tefillin a way in which to work out the sugya so that all potential reasons why a woman shouldn’t wear Tefillin are circumvented.
to which I responded,
Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.
to which Patur Aval Assur responded:
“Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.”
Correct if you adopt a codifier’s methodology of halacha. But if you adopt a Lurian methodology then this is exactly how halacha is supposed to work – you learn through the Gemara and come up with the best pshat and take the early authorities into account but by no means be bound by them. In fact if not for the special respect that is being accorded to the Rema, you will find that his view is a minority view.
Who says this is the best pshat?* Rabbi Harcsztark was not claiming his pshat was the best pshat, just the most convenient for him. So he reworked the halacha to fit his (possibly well-intentioned) whims. You’d doing the same with halachic methodology; although I’m honestly not familiar with what you call “the Lurian method”, it’s not how we pasken today, and one cannot recycle it at will.
*(As I think I previously explained, R’ Chaim wasn’t either claiming his pshat to be the best one; it was only a pshat in one mehalech, lo silbash, not in guf naki.)
Once again though, I am not advocating women’s Tefillin.
Nolens volens (that’s a term I just learned), you are.
VM, where is that pasuk?
🙂
So I will assert, in a more DY-like, straighforward manner, that it’s hard to accept a negative assertion. Lo raisi eina raya.
I will try to trace my source for the story (which I haven’t claimed to be accurate because I want to verify).
No time to fully respond now, but I want to point out that what Sam said isn’t true, the same way what he said about the story with the car door slamming on R’ Moshe’s fingers isn’t true.
How do I know Sam’s making it up?
Because I was there when nobody told Sam that these stories aren’t true.
QED.
This is material he wrote but never published.
From the website:
The Himmelstein family is back with a brand new and unforgettable adventure!
I saw an ad for When Zaidy Was Young Vol III.
I don’t understand, Gavra, the R’ma, Gr’a, M’B say it’s assur. The mainstream psak follows the Kol Bo.
Gavra, I will bl’n chime in on the halachic aspect of this, but first I will say that although I don’t get the R’ Nachman’s dreams reference, I do object to NDG insulting your intelligence.
ROB, I wasn’t trying to compare, I was just saying over how I heard that story.
Syag, even in my version, that’s what he meant.
Briefly:
1) The Gr”a says, as I understand it, that even the Bavli would hold like R’ Avahu of the Yerushalmi (and like the P’sikta) that it’s assur for women, but it wasn’t relevant for the Gemara to bring his opinion because the Gemara was dealing with trying to find a Tanna who holds Shabbos z’man tefillin, not the issue of women putting on tefillin per se.
2) R’ Chaim was dealing with it from the angle of lo silbash (based on Levush), but we pasken that the issue is guf naki. The Mogen Avraham and Pri Megadim (in both Mishbitzos and Eishel) both say that it’s not an issue of women being less hygenic, but of being less careful because they’re not chayavos in tefillin. That didn’t change.
3) In Shoneh Halachos, R’ Chaim says it’s assur.
What I heard (IIRC) B’shem the Rav is that he suggested that the women put on Tefillin without Parshios for a month, and then revisit the decision whether to actually wear tefillin.
The way I heard it was about a talis without tzitzis. After a month, he asked her how it was going. She said she never felt so elevated as when she wore her talis. So he told that that since it was working for her, she needn’t bother putting tzitzis on.
I have no idea if the story is true.
I think they should start with popa’s. Shouldn’t take too long. Just ask rob.
Sam, why do you think it’s assur?
VM – Have the shadchan do it. You are not related to this woman and should NOT be asking personal questions.
I beg to differ. There is absolutely nothing personal about it. It is a kinyan. That’s why Sam didn’t like that I used the word “romantic”.
???? ??: ?????? ????? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????? ?’ ???? ??????????
Who turned over already?
How about this one:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dating-more-than-one#post-392568
I would take the straightforward approach, and ask any shadchan you are in contact with when you should call them back.
Yes, LF. I wasn’t complaining, just reminiscing. 🙂
Thanks, Goq. Ever since Purim, when I dressed up like him, I’ve been having an identity crisis.
did you see what i posted earlier.??
Yes. You cited a case from 3-4 gears ago which was about holding off a temporary injunction against a broker from doing business while the lawsuit was ongoing. More germane to the discussion would be the outcome of the underlying case. Was Frequent Flyer Depot barred from brokering rewards? I can’t tell you for sure, but I can say that they seem to still be in business; there’s a website with that name, owned by George Pirkle, who was listed in the lawsuit you mentioned. They claim to buy airline rewards points.
Except that if the law (dina d’malchusa) recognizes that you could sell your miles, that essentially means that it recognizes your right to transfer that z’chus.
We also find it despicable to go to a hotel for Pesach*, but find it too difficult to clean the house.
So we keep the house kosher l’Pesach, and go to a hotel for the rest of the year.
*and we do not find self-righteous condemnation of the way others choose to enjoy Yom Tov despicable.
Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.
You just contradicted yourself, regarding whether I am a real man or not.
I have more consistency in my little pinky* than you have in your fat head**.
*which is not so little, because as you know, I’m a big fat jerk.
**Which is probably not that fat, because you pound spinach.***
***OTOH, you eat chuffins, so maybe it is.****
****This is just one more example of you being inconsistent.*****
*****Genug shoin!!!!!!
Popa, we would hope not. What I think might be a better example of what marbehshalom means, is, would you embezzle money from your company if it were legal.
I think there still might be a difference here; you are selling what is yours, you are just violating the t&c.
Now I am very curious what the footnote was.
But I’m not gonna ask.
I’m also not gonna ask how the blazes you know what bacon is like.*
I do not have a cast iron grill pan. But I am not insulted.
*footnote redacted. so there.
Very cute. I’ve seen similar.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-add-a-new-thread