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akuperma:
There is a mesorah from Har Sinai, of course. And, yes, we do use a different language on a daily basis, as Lashon HaKodesh is both holy and powerful. Hashem created the world with utterances in that language. No, the language obviously does not change.Lying one (DaMo):
Your idol Zionists shmaded the Yemenites even more than they shmaded the other sefardim and other Jews. Your stories are nonsense, as anyone who knows of sefardim including Yemenites would know. The Brisker Rav sent people on Shabbos to save Jews from the Zionists’ clutches.Avi K:
That’s not an evolution of Lashon HaKodesh. That’s a difference in context. The Tannaim spoke Aramaic, as we know, and any mixing in of (formerly) Lashon HaKodesh there, is no different than the way Yiddish mix in (formerly) Lashon HaKodesh there.ZSK:
100% wrong about Zionist shmad? Had you said 20% wrong or even 50% wrong then that might have been reasonable. But 100% wrong? Every single Yemenite who was caught in the Zionists’ clutches is still holding on to his mesorah from Yemen?And you claim to live in the Zionist paradise? Are you really denying the well-known facts about the Zionist shmad of the Yemenites, throwing overboard their tefillin and priceless sefarim manuscripts and then educating them to be Zionists instead of Jews? Some of those, of course, have moved to other countries after becoming Zionist goyim.
I guess your knee-jerk reflexive defense of the Zionist idol is due to your having learned in a “hesder Yeshiva”, which means that you subscribe to “Religious Zionism” which is idolatry according to the Torah greats like Rav Elchonon, the Brisker Rav, etc.
ujm:
The chassidim intentionally corrupted the proper pronunciation as a counter-force to the maskilim. Presumably, this was an “eis laAsos”-type decision by their esteemed leaders. Unfortunately, they have not switched back, even though those maskilim (and their danger) are gone.As mentioned, with the added exception of those whose havara is corrupted by yiddish (or by a real language), everyone does milEil/milRa the same way, as it should be done, if I am not mistaken.
Regarding the other differences, like many sefardim pronouncing kamatz as patach, it is interesting to note that Persians, who have a common “kamatz” sound in their secular language (Persian), do distinguish between kamatz and patach. So, it is obviously a cultural (i.e., Arabic language) influence that corrupted the general sefardic havara to lose the distinction between kamatz and patach (and the same idea by Ashkenazim who do not distinguish between alef and ayin).
Teimanim have the most number of distinct letter sounds of all, including our English “th” sound – which makes sense as their mesorah was intact from after Bayis Rishon until the Zionists viciously shmaded them – but they also seem to be influenced by their native culture in their not distinguishing between kamatz/patach, if I am not mistaken.
But, again, the point is that Lashon HaKodesh absolutely does not evolve, as G-d made that exactly as He wanted.
Achdus with reshaim is forbidden and is damaging to the soul. Darkei Shalom is very different than achdus; darkei Shalom could be used by gentiles, too, with whom there also is obviously no achdus.
Regarding reshaim, Dovid HaMelech wrote in Tehillim: “Halo misanecha Hashem esna…”
Real achdus is among G-d-fearing Jews, not reshaim who are, at most, irrelevant.I don’t recall ever agreeing with Avi K before, but his point here seems valid. If you want to speak Yiddish because of its long-time use and all that, then that’s one thing. But there are real problems with Yiddish-izing lashon haKodesh, especially how yiddish tends to be largely mil’eil while Lashon haKodesh has many words that are milra.
For example, using the typical mil’eil pronunciation of Yiddish, people mispronounce words like the first word in shema after the two initial declarations, by stating viaHAVta eis instead of ViAhavTA eis.
How people speak Yiddish is not a real concern. Yes, languages can and do evolve; that’s fine. But not lashon haKodesh. G-d made that the way He wanted it. If you improperly pronounce Lashon HaKodesh when davening and laining – if that’s improperly influenced by Yiddish (or for any other reason/culture/whatever) – then that certainly is a concern.
yitzchokm
The terms for a poster who posted that would be “leitz” and “malshin”.simcha613: When the Zionists first began their invasion a century or so ago, the Jews living in then-Palestine, including Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZT”L, begged the Zionists to go away and to stop inflaming the Arabs and causing the Arabs to hate Jews (thinking that other Jews are Zionists). The Chevron Massacre is a good example of this; the marauding Arabs murdered the talmidei chachamim (non-Zionists, of course) in the Chevron Yeshiva because their European features made the Arabs conclude that they, too, were Zionists who were threatening their Al Aqsa – as opposed to the sefardim in the town whom the savages did not touch because they knew that the sefardim there were not Zionists.
Actually, it was the Zionist provocations that caused those very white papers, and the borders to be closed, of course. Think: the British had recently issues the Balfour Declaration, which was rather magnanimous, even though, as they noted, the Zionists read far more into it than they intended (and wrote). The whole point was to allow Jews a safe haven in then-Palestine under British control. So, why would the British then follow that up with the White Papers? The answer, of course, is Zionist provocation of the Arabs. Had the evil Zionists not invaded, the doors would have remained wide open. There also would not have been a Holocaust, in the first place, if not for Zionism, but that’s a separate related point.
Your kefirah about the gimmel shevuos is, of course, disgraceful. The Maharal stated that they are indeed yeHareig viAl Yaavor. It’s also abysmally stupid to violate those oaths (and to mock the same) given what Hashem said he would do – and unfortunately did – in response. But to answer your question, even Rabbi AY Kook was against establishing a State via war. The few Rabbanim in Agudah who (unfortunately) gave their tentative approval to such a “State” did so only on a number of conditions including that it would be fully peaceful, not forever wars as all the gedolim for a century predicted Zionism would be.
In writing that “The World gave us a state when the British left and then the new state was invaded by the Arabs.”, you’re simply parroting Zionist lies and propaganda. What actually happened, as written above, was that the Zionists terrorized and fought against the British, forcing them to leave, and then blatantly disregarded the UN directive that they were going to start a new Mandate there by founding their “State” and started their first of many wars with the Arabs. This included the Zionists attempting to take Jerusalem, also explicitly against the UN which told the Zionists that Jerusalem should be an international city, which caused the British-trained Jordanians to enter that war, which caused the deaths of even more Jews on the altar of Zionism and also the loss of access to the Kosel Maaravi.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your recent reply to my post in this discussion is based on three things:
[1] Denial
[2] Ignorance
[3] ZionismThis is nonsense, as some have already noted, as the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews there and have shmaded and impoverished generations of Jews. But the topic itself is also inaccurate. The greatest supporter of Torah in the world – even before the Zionists further impoverished the Jews under its unwanted control – is, instead, Russian President Vladimir Putin.
All the tired pro-Zionist nonsense is really pathetic.
“The Satmar Rav didn’t hold of his own Torah because he tried to live there and supposedly said to vote in municipal elections?” He never said you can’t live there (of course you could – as per the shevuos). Municipal elections have zero to do with “National” Elections. This is ridiculous.DaMoshe, I am of course not a navi, but both the Satmar Rav (on vaYechi, if memory serves) and Brisker Rav stated explicitly that Moshiach would have come back then if Jews had prayed for that instead of the idol State.
simcha613:
As they say in learning, “boich sevaras” are just that, all the more so when they go against the Torah.
The Brisker Rav stated that nothing can help Klal Yisrael other than fulfillment of the Torah. And the whole Zionist disaster has been extremely anti-Torah in numerous ways.Kibbutz galuyos does not mean Jews returning to E”Y against the Torah. And, as for your sevara’s logic, there is, of course, nothing stopping Hashem from ejecting all those Jews from the land. Many are anyways living in hotels, as it happens, thanks to the Zionists’ latest war and overall disaster. You could also say sevaras just the opposite of yours, because we say twice per day how Hashem said he will eject sinners from His land.
The quotes are likely nonsense, regardless of in what book they appeared.
As emesayid pointed out, many people thought that the general political atmosphere conveyed a sign that Hashem was about to bring the geulah. The truth is that He was, except that people prayed for the Zionist State instead, so that’s what He gave them. So sad.SQUARE_ROOT:
That doesn’t make your earlier inaccurate assertion about the Kosel any less misleading.Besides, the reason for those restrictions imposed by the British was, of course, Zionist terror, wars and agitation (all pre-1948 – never mind the endless wars from then on) that destroyed the peace there.
This same Zionist agitation also compelled the British to limit immigration into then-Palestine during WW II, about which the Zionists of course knew (as the source of the troubles) and despite which the Zionists still lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries then.
DaMoshe:
“Modern Orthodoxy” is today’s haskala, as it happens.
Also, real chassidus is, of course, not “feel-good Judaism”, as anyone who has learned chassidic Torah can attest.SQUARE_ROOT:
Actually, until the Zionists went against the Torah (and endangered countless numbers of Jews), and against the nations, in making their “State” in 1948, Jews did indeed have access to the Kosel.Unlike the “Modern Orthodox” who detract from the Torah by adding on their heresies to the Torah (Kol haMosif gore’a), Torah Jews gain immense spiritual fulfillment in the full richness of the Torah (minus the parts for which we need the geula and Beis haMikdash, of course), as much as they are capable of achieving. There is also tremendous unity among Jews, when discussing those loyal to the Torah, as opposed to the heretics and their movements like Zionism.
“Meh. There’s no “void” within Modern Orthodoxy…”
Rav Schwab noted decades ago, even then, that “Modern Orthodoxy” was stale, stagnant and fossilized. Rav Aharon Kotler noted that its founder was responsible for “all the tuma in America”. Given that it adds idolatrous and heretical appendages to the Torah, like but not limited to Zionism, there is very much a “void” in “Modern Orthodoxy”, which is why many “Modern Orthodox” kids go to Israel and “flip out” and become frum rather than “Modern”.Justask
Zionism is idolatry. Idolatry is not rational. This praising and even worshiping the Zionists is also, of course, irrational.Gadolhadorah:
Who needs missionaries and other groups as adversaries when he have more than enough adversaries in the form of Zionism?
“EY” is not defending anything, and is no danger. It is instead the Zionist “State” is at war, as always, and as the gedolim predicted a century ago that would happen.Sam Klein: Easy there on the reflexive pro-Zionist genuflecting. His post was not at all sinas chinam, and it was not any type of sina and not against any Jew at all, for that matter. But since you brought up the problem of Mashiach being held back, that would be due to the Zionists and their “State”, of course, as the gedolim have written and as is fairly obvious to anyone who looks at the world from the perspective of Torah rather than, liHavdil, Zionism. May Hashem have mercy on all His children.
LerntminTayrah
Let’s rewrite that to reflect reality: What is it about Zionism that causes people to post pro-Zionist nonsense on so many threads? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank during their respective times. Zionism is very much a current disaster for Klal Yisrael.Square Root:
What I wrote was absolutely true.From a spiritual perspective, Zionism is a heretical and idolatrous godless (unlike any Christian movement) land-based nationalist replacement theology for Judaism that claims to be the real Judaism – which is therefore far worse than Jews for J. It is strong in its State and that cancer R”L L”A has spread throughout the world. The actual damage done by Zionism to Jews and Judaism is orders of magnitude greater than Jews for J and all the rest.
From a physical perspective, Zionism has already caused (and then made worse) the Holocaust, and Jews around the world, including those on American College campuses, have been endangered simply due to Zionism and its endless wars.
No, the attempted point about the ancient break-off kingdom of the then tribes was not at all a valid point, as the navi told Yeravam that he would be appointed king over the new kingdom that would split from malchus yehuda – as opposed to the Zionists who rebelled against G-d in founding their “State” (and even Rabbi Kook never sanctioned violence to achieve a State). See how simple is that distinction?
It’s ironic that Zionist always bring up the teshuva movement there without acknowledging that the Zionists intentionally destroyed the Judaism of those Jews in the first place, after which that teshuva movement was and is then needed.
You could keep going, but you’re simply attempting to defend the indefensible.
DaMoshe:
The ruler is not the point; the “State” and its ideology are the point; there has never been an ideology as poisonous and heretical as Zionism which redefines Jews and Judaism from Torah-based to idolatrous Nationalist land-based gentile-wannabe. Not even Yeravam ben Nevat went anywhere near that low. But the Zionist “State” is anyways forbidden by G-d, etc. unlike the ancient kings and their kingdoms.SQUARE_ROOT:
Let’s rewrite that to reflect Torah and reality, rather than Zionism.In our times, there is a large organized movement (Zionism, of course) to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Anyone who publicly supports the Zionists is becoming a de facto ally of that large organized movement to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews, starting with the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, but not ending with them.
Therefore, anyone who publicly joins the Zionists becomes a rodaif and a mosair, because he joins himself to those people who work to endanger and commit shmad against all Jews.
lakewhut:
Not quite. The Zionists are much more like the meraglim, as the Zionists are the ones who insist that G-d can’t protect Jews without Zionism and its weapons. Shockingly, some frum Jews even believe this heresy.DaMoshe:
The big difference, of course, is that G-d made them kings and gave them a kingdom, as opposed to the Zionist “State” which has zero halachic legitimacy even as a secular State.SQUARE_ROOT:
The obvious reason for the creation of yeshivos in the Zionist State – despite the Zionist invasion of the area and the Zionists’ harassment of Jews there – is that millions of Jews have moved there since then. Makes sense: millions of Jews living somewhere means that there will be lots of yeshivos there.The obvious reason for the celebrated baal teshuva movement after the Zionists’ ordinary and non-miraculous military victory in 1967 is that the Zionists had shmaded all those Jews for decades prior. It would have been far better had the Zionists not shmaded them and for the baal teshuva movement to thus not have been needed.
The fact is that Israel’s wars were all by choice, especially the early ones as the Satmar Rav and others have written in their sefarim explicitly. The Zionists could also have gone to the UN and asked for a new mandate (against which the Zionists would not terrorize and battle, unlike the one they forced to end so that they could make their “State” in 1948).
Your playing the achdus card is perhaps the weakest argument of all. Achdus is under the banner of Torah, not violating it in any way including not joining with reshaim and not violating “lo sihye acharei rabim liRaos”. As well, it is actually the opposite. As the Brisker Rav, Satmar Rav and others noted, the Zionist State is actually holding back the geulah. So, as long as people worship that idol, we will need that much more rachamim from Hashem for Mashiach to come.
Last but not least, it is extremely obvious that YOU SIMPLY HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT.
Sincerely.
Unlike the others, the Zionist State has the additional “advantage” of being an idol (or at least part of an idol), and is also halachically not considered a State, like for dina diMalchusa dina. That’s in addition to the Zionist blasphemous and offensive lie that it is the “Jewish State” (both parts of that quote are false, as it happens, though the Jewish part is a far greater lie), as you pointed out.
Chaim87:
Zionist propaganda remains Zionist propaganda. That applies to their “wars”, which were all by choice including their war of “independence” which was against the will of the gentiles who wanted to start a new UN mandate instead, which the Zionists nixed – by force. It also applies to the apologetics about the oaths and all the rest. They’re brought liHalacha by the Rambam himself and by numerous other poskim and gedolim throughout the generations. Changing the Torah because of Zionist propaganda about Holocaust survivors will also not work, especially since it was the Zionists who both caused and contributed to that Holocaust, like lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries. So, no, it was not a random “nobody wanted them”; in galus, other than the Zionists interfering in the Holocaust, there was always a place to which Jews could move when one country became non-hospitable.LerntminTayrah:
“…admit that perhaps Hashem doesn’t hate the Toshvei Eretz Yisroel as much as they do.”
It’s pathetic that you insist on making a straw-man by conflating those living in E”Y with the Zionist invaders of a portion of E”Y.
The Torah never changes and never will, including for Zionism.DaMoshe:
The teshuva from Zionist shmad that is taking place is great. But that pig, like all pigs, is still treif, and will always be so. That “State” is forbidden by G-d for multiple severe reasons. Period. That “State” is Zionist, which is idolatry and heresy, and therefore it still exists specifically to shmad the Jewish people and redefine Judaism, which has not changed at all, even if more people put on tefillin and believe in Hashem.jacoby211:
Nope. We (as in Jews who follow the Torah) have a mesorah from the gaon and Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in galus will be America. As well, there are various rather frightening prophecies about what will happen in E”Y when Mashiach comes. Finally, the Zionist “State” is such an abomination that it is liable to disappear any day, especially as it reduces its support of Torah and increases its assault on the Torah and the Jews.
Netzach Yisrael lo yishaker!Chaim87:
More Zionist Kool-Aid. After the war, the Zionists pushed the survivors to serve as fodder for their “State”-to-be, branding them as “traitors” if they went instead to America, which many did. The sick irony of that is that those same Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in those very same Jews into their countries which meant that those survivors and their dead relatives were sent to Hitler’s ovens and camps instead.Here are some fun facts: almost all gedolim leveled extremely harsh criticism against Rabbi Kook – either personally or his works. Both Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Maamarim) and the Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kook a “rasha gamur”. The Satmar Rav called him a lot more than that, too. As did Rav Yosef Yedid in Shearis Yosef, who titled the piece “Regarding an Apikores about whom we must protest”. The Chofetz Chaim also did not hold of Rabbi Kook, as any Brisker (and others) can tell you.
Regardless, Rabbi Kook never permitted war, and he died well before the Zionists fought their first “real” war (as opposed to their prior acts of terror and mischief) in 1948.
Regarding the shevuos, both the Brisker and Satmar Rabbanim stated that the State violated not only the shevuos but “kol haTorah kulah”. Practically speaking, they were obviously gravely concerned about its assault on Torah and Jews. But that in no way diminishes all the other halachic problems with that “State”.
Regarding today, of course they look to shmad. Zionism is shmad and they are promoting Zionism. They’re not “tinokos sheNishbu” in their “am chafshi” paradise which happens to have shuls, yeshivas and even “Religious Zionist” institutions, all over the country. That’s really not a tenable argument.
LerntminTayrah:
The Zionist slander of NK is absurd. Their methods are problematic, but their message is simply the Torah’s message: the Zionists do not represent Jews and Jews are not liable for anything the Zionists do. The NK never ever asked anyone to destroy the Jews of E”Y, and it is absurd to even suggest that.dbrim:
“Zionist state” is a term used by normal frum yidden who believe in the Torah and also not in the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.Unlike your “Religious Zionist” (which Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D labeled as “Idolatry mixed with religion”) propaganda, Hashem has not yet called us back to His palace; that is of course for what frum Jews daven thrice daily: “Teka biShofar gadol….”
It is also gravely forbidden for Jews to emigrate en masse to E”Y (as opposed to small groups/individuals) and it is also forbidden for Jews to take political power there as the Zionists have done, of course. The Zionists have also fought against the Torah and inflicted tremendous harm and damage on Hashem’s children, Klal Yisrael.
chaim_baruch:
When is this Zionist idolatry and silliness going to end? Denial is not only a river in nearby Egypt.
Israel is very much the Zionist State. Zionism is the heretical ideology that still very much drives that State.
Specifically, the heresy of Zionism – like redefining the Jewish people from Torah-based to land-based – is very much the current ideology of all flavors of Zionist idolatry, irreligious and otherwise.
DaMoshe:
The Zionist nightmare is in its final stage before that idol is confined to the dust-bin of history. On a different note, Mashiach and the third temple have zero to do with Zionism. – in fact, Zionism was and is intended to replace Judaism.Mishna in A”Z states that the Avoda Zara of a Jew can never become batel, as Rav Aharon Kotler noted in this regard.
The rally had separate-gender sections. The much bigger issues with the rally were the hischabrus im reshaim and the chilul Hashem of allowing the Zionists to be their representatives/leader (just like by the Eigel).
The difference between the Zionists who attended that Zionist rally, vs. NK bringing to the gentiles the Torah’s indisputable message that Zionism is not Judaism, is that NK likely believes (and it seems more so than ever that they are right in that belief) that it is literal pikuach nefesh to make sure the gentiles know that Zionism is not Judaism and therefore that the gentiles should not blame the Jews for whatever issue these gentiles might have with the Zionists and their State.
yankel berel:
He can keep his chezkas kashrus, but the story in which the Satmar Rav is quoted saying something he never said, to which the Brisker Rav replied that you can’t say that, reflects a misunderstanding of the Satmar Rav’s position as indicated in the Satmar Rav’s written Torah on the subject.smerel:
The fact is that, as per his book, what Rabbi Lorincz claimed to the Brisker Rav in the Satmar Rav’s name is against what the Satmar Rav writes explicitly in his sefarim and something the Satmar Rav never said.LMT:
So, in other words, your mischaracterization of maaseh Satan and the Satmar Rav’s use of that is of no consequence since – who cares – there were big nissim done. Well, the Satmar Rav might care. As should you, if Torah Jews looked askance at the Satmar Rav as a result of your mischaracterization of him.LerntminTayrah:
Whatever nissim did or didn’t happen in the Iranian barrage against Israel still do not change the facts:
nissim happen only in the zechus of frum Jews who need those nissim
Zionist wars were conventional military victoriesSmerel:
Yes, he did. Rabbi MP Lorincz quoted that from him, as I recall. That’s the same Rabbi Lorincz who misreported to the Brisker Rav what the Satmar Rav didn’t say. If you believe him as gospel truth to attach the Satmar Rav who never said the Satan won the Zionist wars then you can also believe him that the Brisker Rav made this statement, too.smerel and other Zionist apologists:
No, it’s not at all contradictory. The facts are that the Zionists won their wars in a conventional military sense, not as a miracle. There were, of course, miracles on an individual level (as there are all over the world every second) during those wars, but, again, the plain historical facts are that those wars were conventional victories. And, yes, that’s on the CIA’s web site, thatThe Maaseh satan part of it is, as the Satmar Rav writes in Al HaGeulah, that the Zionists claimed that it was a miracle and fooled people into becoming Zionists as a result. That was the maaseh satan. Also, on a related note, the Brisker Rav famously stated that “the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest victory of the Satan since the sin of the golden calf”. And Brisk is very exacting in the words they use.
Again, regardless of what you have or have not found, the Zionists won a standard military victory in 1967. Their war in 1948 was much less of a cakewalk, though the Zionists had purchased close to 100 Million Dollars (in 1940s money) to fund their army for that war. So that victory was no miracle either, as West Point’s books on the subject will also tell you, if you care to see military facts rather than Zionist propaganda.
Finally regarding what some gedolim might have held in 1948 and 1967, when the only “facts” available were Zionist lies, you can’t blame them for getting it wrong then. And the WZO fiasco was based on a totally fake heter, as Rav Aharon Feldman pointed out in writing at the time and later publicly denounced at the following Agudah convention; there was no “teshuva” ever written to discuss how it could overturn a wall-to-wall mesorah for a century unlike the millions of teshuvos that Rav Moshe and others wrote on matters far less severe. This is sick and sad.
LerntminTayrah:
You might want to learn the Satmar Rav on the subject before putting words in his mouth that he never said (and never wrote).
Satmar and Brisk both agree that these miracles are, of course, in merit of the Jews and despite that Zionist entity, not CH”V because of that Zionist entity.The Satmar Rav ZY”A went further in pointing out that although the Zionist victories in their wars were conventional military victories, which is simple fact, Hashem did give the Satan permission to fool many into believing the Zionist lies and propaganda about those victories being miracles. That is the maaseh Satan, not the actual – and very conventional – victories.
simcha613:
Zionism was, is and always will be idolatry. The Torah’s definition of idolatry doesn’t change.Regarding the Chareidim in the Zionist parliament, that is halachically almost-impossible (read Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s biayos haZman). And according to the Satmar Rav and others, it’s severely prohibited.
Whatever illusory benefits you fantasize that the Zionist State provides (there would not have been the need for any army, and Mashiach would have been here had it not been for the State, according to both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav) does not kasher the enormous pig and idol that is Zionism and its State.
simcha613:
If your local Catholic Church would have a cultural program and have minyanim and kosher food, the entire program would still be totally treif.Zionism is idolatry. Period. The Zionist State uses its army to indoctrinate/shmad its inductees with the Zionist redefinition of Judaism. That’s exactly what it is. That is obviously totally treif, as all the gedolim said going all the way back, and no amount of Zionist apologetics and nonsense can possibly kosher that enormous pig.
Jews do not belong in the Zionist army, no matter how much Torah they learn or don’t learn. Period. The Zionist army is spiritually extremely damaging, and it is plainly forbidden to enlist. Period.
As well, the Zionist army is known to make OTD a large percentage of its inductees, those who were somewhat religious before entering that shmad. It’s not just theoretical, though it would be just as forbidden even if it were only theoretical.
It’s astonishing that people even bother trying to deny any of this when it’s plain as day.
Such Zionist nonsense. Gosh.
@yankel berel:
No, the Zionists started the war against the Arabs (and British) long before 1947. The “Partition Plan” came much later after the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews and also the lihavdil the British and Arabs.
@simcha613
“nowadays the State of Israel is not an enemy of Torah nor does the government or army want anyone to not keep Torah.”
This is one of the biggest and most absurd untruths I can recall seeing on these boards. Wow.
In addition to the facts about Zionism and its “State” and army/shmad indoctrination force, you can also observe that if 30% of the already idolatrous “National Religious” are going further OTD in the Zionist army, then that army very obviously is not friendly to Torah.Zionists: Give it up. The Zionist idol is exactly that: an idol. edited
simcha613:
It’s such a shame that Zionists and their idolatrous supporters need to resort to lies to support their position. Zionism is shmad, as are its platforms and protocols, and the State of Israel is the Zionist State that puts Zionist shmad into action. It’s really not complicated and it’s also no secret if you just read their platforms and witness the evil they do in the portions of E”Y they control.They want chareidim for exactly one reason: to convert them from Judaism to Zionism.
“Sharing the burden” is not a Torah value. Just the opposite: it is a Zionist value. The Zionists chose to invade the area a century ago – against the wishes of the Jews there – and the Zionists proceeded to light the area (and world) on fire; it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to put out the Zionist fire.
So sad.
yankel berel:
This is silly. Stop hocking irrelevant nonsense about the League of Nations, which was long gone in 1948. The Zionists violated multiple oaths including rebelling against the nations, regardless of the LON. That’s the point. They also violated aliyah baChoma and dechikas haKeitz, so it also was and remains forbidden due to those two oaths in addition.
Again, the oaths are settled halacha, as per all the poskim through the ages that brought them down and applied them, including the Rambam, and nobody can possibly claim otherwise.
Yankel Berel:
You’re wrong/misquoting, and this has been discussed earlier. He permitted only voting in Israeli elections since that doesn’t impact the State’s existence.HaLeivi:
It is not “my” pshat. It is the Torah’s pshat. No Torah authority disagrees.“And the fact that the state succeeded in being established, for quite a few decades now, is proof that this is not a violation of Olah Bechomah or Meridah Ba’umos. Because again, those Gezeiros meant that it can’t work.”
Your invented pshat in gezeira, however, is yours and nobody holds that way, unless you can find someone like a Satmar Rav or Brisker Rav or the like who says that. Speaking of them, by the way, the Brisker Rav agrees to the Satmar Rav and actually goes further and stated that the Zionist State violates the entire Torah.
If you think about it, though, you will realize that your pshat makes no sense. Hashem warned that if they violate the oaths, then he will make their flesh free as one would hunt game (“Ani mattir es…”). That inherently means that you could actually violate the gezeira if you want to do that – but that it’s not going to be pretty if you do. So the fact the State exists after all these years does not at all indicate anything regarding it being a violation of the oaths (which it most certainly is in multiple ways).
On a related note, and this will offend the hard-core Zionist idolaters but I believe it is Torah: the fact that the Zionist paradise requires sealed rooms in all homes, and looking over one’s shoulder to ensure there are no savages waiting to attack R”L L”A, seems pretty obviously a continued “Ani mattir es bisar…”.
Again, your pshat makes no sense and is totally baseless.
Regarding your question about the reason it is so egregious to violate the oaths, that would be because it is kefirah in bias haMashiach and, regarding specifically the Zionist State as per the Brisker Rav, kefirah in the entire Torah. Please don’t bring in Tzlafchad here who had noble intentions to show how serious is Shabbos and not CH”V to rebel in any way, unlike liHavdil the Zionist paradise which is a total and utter rebellion including replacing Judaism with godless Zionism.