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Hashem obviously wanted him to be president, so what does the OP mean by “shouldn’t”?
Hashem also wanted Obama to be president before Trump.AUO, Chabad clearly and explicitly rejected the idea of moshiach being dead for years. Then the Rebbe died and suddenly this is Chabad belief?
The Rambam clearly rejects it as well. Chabad does Rambam Yomi and the Rebbe considered the Rambam so authoritative that the distinctive Chbad menorah was based on the Rambam illustration.
Yes, there are a few sources for it. But it wasn’t mainstream, and the Mechaber clearly stopped believing in Shlomo Molcho once the Christians killed him.The Lubavitcher Rebbe spent ten years in Berlin and Sarbonne attending various universities. Didn’t end up wqith much to show for it, according to recent research by Menachem Friedman. He was in Berlin at the same time as Rav Hutner zt”l and Rav YB Solovotechik zt”l. In the book “Thinking aloud”. someone asked Rav YB Soloveitchik zt”l if it’s true the Rebbe learned tehillim all day. He replied, “First ask me if he wore a yarmulke”. The Rebbe didn’t while in university, as per the custom of the Orthodox Jews in college. This doesn’t make him a bad person, but not the background of a future messiah.
The Mechaber zt”l, who got a mention in this thread, stood behind the messianic candidacy of Shlomo Molcho. But he didn’t think his own rabbeim were moshiach. Lubavitchers think the Rebbe was moshiach because the Rebbe said so in his “basi legani” maamar, and then everything had to be distorted to fit it in.
Lubavitch needs a Shaul of Tarshish type to keep klal yisroel away, though they are doing a good job themselves with this yechi nonsense and saying Der Rebbe Vet helfn. Klal yisroel knows a Christianity clone when they see one.Taanis 25b implies that people were always into looks
His generation ended 25 years ago. Single girls from when he died are now bubbies. You are now having the second generation of Lubavitchers who only know the Rebbe as an oyhel, not as a real person.
At some point they need to accept that they got played and move on with the next Rebbe.Both alive and dead at the same time. Schrodinger’s Rebbe
This is an old machlokes. The Rema paskens you don’t ask the dead person to do anything for you, and the gemera in Sota (34?) about Kaleiv asking the avos to pray for him is agaddateda.
The Pri Megadim defends it and says it’s not a violation of the 5th ikkar because they are asking him to intercede with Hashem. The dead person isn’t all-powerful and isn’t Hashem in a human body.The rebbe’s atzmus sicha said you can directly daven to a rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. That is NOT what the pri megadim said. That is the person in the kever as a god.
Major difference.
Though litvaks hold like the Rema and do neither. We see how innocent practices become avoda zara r”lLubavitch was a different Lubavitch before the 7th Rebbe.
Occam’s Razor says go by the simplest explanation.
For those who insist modern Lubavitch ISN’T Avoda zara:
If chas veshalom it WAS, what would it be doing differently from today?We already established that people daven to the Rebbe, based on the atzmus sicha.
While many don’t, the Rebbe said it’s ok so it’s just a question of personal preference.
We already established that people say “Der Rebbe vet helfn” instead of “Der Eibishter vet helfn”. So whether or not they daven. they still speak of the Rebbe as all-powerful.
They post pictures of the Rebbe everywhere.
They say he’s alive.
They say he couldn’t make a mistake.
They say everything he touched has “Elokus”We have a slew of justifications and twisted and distorted gemaras to defend every one of these distortions of the mesorah, but none of these were part of klal yisroel until the Rebbe died.
Rav Shach zt”l couldn’t be fooled, though I was. I thought his use of avoda zara was extreme. I depserately wanted him to be wrong.
Daas chachomim hepech midaas baalabattim. He was right, I was wrong. I wish it wasn’t so.I would almost buy these justifications for deification IF it was done when the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe was alive, and all chassidim did it. However, all of this cropped up after the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe died, and these are nothing but post-facto distortions and justifications for deification that go against the mesorah of klal yisroel and the 13 ikkarim. And it’s why the Rambam gave them to us- so no mater how much someone tries to be metaher this sheretz, we know it’s a sheretz. We know Yoshke wasn’t moshiach despite his claim of G-d in a body, we know others who try that claim aren’t.
You can call him the Avi Ezri, which would be like The Shach. Otherwise it’s like saying The Shneerson.
Unfortunately, Rav Shach zt”l was proven correct. Many thought he was wrong , but the last 25 years have proven him correct, as discussed elsewhere.
Daniel was punished for Nuvuchadnetzar davening to him, as per the midrash.
Oy! Der Rebbe vet helfn (leitznusa deavoda zara)
The Rebbe had a stroke in 1992. He was quite incapacitated from it. When he died, a death certificate was issued, which is easily googlable for whoever wants to see it. They don’t issue one until an exhaustive battery of test are done. I spoke to someone who was in the ambulance that did hotzaas hameis, who assured me that the Rebbe’s body was doing all the things dead bodies do when they’re out of the fridge. There was a tight chain of custody until the Rebbe was put into a coffin, and the coffin was carried by Chabadskers. Once the Rebbe was put in and covered with 6 feet of dirt, even if he was alive and healthy he would have no way of clawing himself out. So at best he would have lived another few hours before succumbing to lack of air. Yet we see they hold he’s physically alive. Quit the magic trick.
Chossid, in this case, the person above was basing himself on the atzmus sicha which the Rebbe stated. The Rebbe explicitly blurred he line between human and Hashem. It’s like whe Christians call Yoshke both human and god, based on their theology. The Rebbe explicitly adopted this. He owns this.
The picture I posted in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-lubavicher-rebbe-shlita/#post-1705012
shows a big banner hanging off a school with a moshiach flag, saying “The Rebbe physically lives in this physical world”.
That doesn’t fit into anything anyone here is saying.
From a fb conversation a friend of mine who learns at 770 had
Yeshivishrockstar, The Rebbe isn’t the Torah. He said what he said, had 12 years to correct the record, never did. His sicha EXPLICITLY says it’s ok to daven to a rebbe directly because of atzmus. This isn’t a snag diyuk. It’s befeirush in the atzmus sicha. Like that was his whole point. Please show me where the likutei moharan or kedushas levi violated the 13 ikkarim and said it’s ok to daven to a person.
People have a bigger problem with sukkah and meshichism because they are not familiar with the atzmus sicha. Rav Shach zt”l was fully aware of the apikorsus and called them out on it. Meshichism follows from this- if the Rebbe can’t make a mistake because he’s part of Hashem then he couldn’t have been wrong about him being moshiach.
I think my sikum was overly complex so let’s boil it down.
1. Should you join chabad? No, because the movement has many apikorsim based on the rebbe’s own sicha equating rebbes with Hashem, as posted above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from Chabdskers.
2. Should a chabad person leave chabad? Yes, as above. Gedolim agree so don’t let yourself get taken in by sophistry from your mashpiim.Daasyochid, klal yisroel has a chezkas kashrus and kol deparush meruba parush.
Chabad is kavua. Plus the rebbe’s “rebbe = Hashem” atzmus sicha is a reyusa on every member of Chabad.Daasyochid, I will say that their usual excuse is “those aren’t the regular Lubavitchers, just the crazies”. They don’t use the term apikorsim because they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
But for us, we are trying to be mekareiv them, let’s use the appropriate term.
I can’t speak for Rav Menashe Klein zt”l. But I accept his pask as someone who knows the bounds of appropriate and inappropriate chassidus.AUO, you’re quoting your rebbe and saying you need to understand him while saying we can’t rely on our gedolim as a lame excuse. Which is it?
You’re losing cheshbon and we’re 8 pages deep into this sugya so it’s time for a sikum.
2 questions on the floor:
1. should a non-chabad join chabad?
2. Should an existing chabadsker drop chabad?
Tha answer to 1. is clearly no. We have established that
a. The rebbe said full-fledged apikorsus/kefira by saying you are allow to daven to the rebbe because the rebbe is one body with Hashem. This violates numerous ikrei emunah. (You fully admit that the sicha on its face value is kefira/minnus, just that you claim we need to be melamed zechus and be metareitz dibburo, which lacks a source that it’s our job to do so when the kefira is black-and-white)b. Many Lubavitchers take it at face value, as even you admit. They daven to the Rebbe and say things like the rebbe will help and the rebbe runs the world, clearly indicating the rebbe is the equivalent of Hashem. They say everything the Rebbe touched has Elokus, and the Rebbe can’t make a mistake even though even Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake as explicitly stated in this week’s parsha. You just say that this isn’t chabad philosophy, and people make mistakes. But that means you’re saying moshiach caused people to worship avoda zara, even as you are metareitz dibburo to say he didn’t say what he said. Since avoda zara isn’t battul, then even one apikoires in Lubavitch means stay away, kol shekein when it looks like official Chabad philosophy.
c. Many gedolim said that Chabad is avoda zara/apikorsus. You admit that too, but say the fact that they attack the Rebbe for saying kefira means they lose their status as gedolim. But everyone else holds of them. And they are confirming what is obvious to everyone who sees that sicha, that the rebbe turned his entire movement into direct avoda zara by claiming that a rebbe is on par with Hashem. So no need to say they made a mistake or got their facts wrong when we see they were correct.
You agree with me that there are full-fledged ovdei avoda zara in Chabad based on understanding the sicha at face value, which rather explicitly says it’s ok to daven to the rebbe. You are just claiming he didn’t mean what he said, and it’s somehow coincidence that even normal chabadskers say things like “der rebbe vet helfn ” and The rebbe runs the world as if to imply that it’s the rebbe, not Hashem. In the gemara there is a concept of metareitz lediburo. If someone says apikorsus, then moridin velo maalin. Not my job to be metareitz diburo. It’s HIS job to correct the record. He had many years after publishing that to publish a retraction or correct the record. Shtika kehoda’ah. He said kefira and meant it.
So the answer to question # 2. is yes, Chabadskers should abandon chabad. They don’t have to become misnagdim. They can join Lionzer or other Chabad non-Lubavitch breakaways that retain Chabad but dump the kefira/apikorsus. Please do so. Klal yisroel needs you. Be like Yisro- abandon the avoda zara to go tachas kanfei hashechina. We eagerly await you.I object to the term “nut jobs” here. That implies lack of bechira and inability to do teshiva. I prefer the term apikorsim like Rav Aharon Fedman zt”l used. Yemincha peshuta lekabel shavim.
Like Warren Buffet used to say, don’t invest in an industry you don’t understand because it’s probably a scam. These scam companies use a bunch of fancy words and say “youre not educated enough to understand”. The thing is, the 13 ikkarim are rather simple and ironclad. If you violate them, you’re out. It’s on the people violating them to say why they’re not apikorsim. Syag doesn’t need my backup but blowing off serious shailas with “you’re uneducated” is not an intellectually satisfying answer. Please directly answer the question. The sicha Daas Yochid posted above DIRECTLY says you can ignore the 5th ikkar because the rebbe is G-d in a human body. That’s a direct violation of the ikkarim that says Hashem has no human form, Hashem alone runs the world, you can only daven to Hashem. There is an ikkar about how great Moshe Rabbeinu was, but nowhere in history do we find Jews saying “Moishe Rabbeinu vet helfn”.
I’ll acceppt that most Lubavitchers dont’ accept that sicha kepshuto because it’s apikorsus, so we don’t have to view Crown Heights as an ir hanidachas, but there are clearly many who do based on the widespread popularity of der rebbe vet helfn. So yeah, stay away from current Lubavitch.Again, ad the gedoilim are correct, you DON’T speak to Lubavitcher talmidei chachomim because they are michutz lamachaneh. This attitude of “ignore your gedolim and speak to ours” is kind of weird, especially since they are the ones veering off the 13 ikkarim not us. It’s up to them to recant the apikorsus and rejoin klal yisroel, not up to us to ignore our gedoilim and understand their apikorsus.
Atzmus sicha said you are allowed to daven to the Rebbe because he’s Hashem in a human body. So mima nafshach- either you agree with him and you’re an apikoires, or you argue on him which means you hold your rebbe was an apikoires, and what’s to defend?
The noitzrim believe their guy died but is moshiach. So does chabad.
The noitzrim believe their guy is one with God, beyond what any other Jew is. So does chabad.
The noitzrim believe you can daven to their guy instead of Hashem. So does Chabad.The noitzrim should sue for plagiarism.
Please don’t tell me nobody davens to the Rebbe if the sicha from 1979 EXPLICITLY PERMITS IT AND SAYS THE 5TH IKKAR DOESN’T APPLY TO THE REBBE DUE TO ATZMUS. So either they hold it’s true or they hold the Rebbe said apikorsus there and forget about it, but then moshiach can’t be an apikoires.
Let’s say you have the most charitable reading of the 1979 sicha and somehow wriggle out of the fact he said “atzmus means no violation of the 5th ikkar” which itself violates other ikkarim as well as the 5th. The Rebbe wasn’t an apikoires and he meant well . YET, it’s an established fact that there are chabadnikim who do daven to the Rebbe (based on that sicha), call him “our Creator”, some say “Rebbe YHVH”, etc. So How can moshiach be someone who caused people to turn away from Hashem and worship avoda zara?
Listen to the Rambam’s ikkarim and the heintigge gedoilim- stay away from Chabad.
Ein od milvado. Hashem helps, no other power helps.
BneiBrak, that was just the eiruv rav. Klal yisroel used the eigel as an emtzai, the same words the sicha says the Rebbe is for- an emtzai who is one with Hashem so there’s no violation of davening to someone other than Hashem because thanks to atzmus, the Rebbe and Hashem are one and the same (sic!)
Syag, whose reputaion here in the CR is sterling, said he saw it. I have seen people say it. Google daven to the Rebbe and you will see others. It makes sense, as it’s pashut pshat in atzmus. And pashut pshat in atzmus is keneged the 13 ikkarim.
I’m sure there are teirutzim. And you can’t be on sanhedrin without being able to be metaher a sheretz. But yet the sheretz remains tamei, and our gedolim say to ignore these farfetched teirutzim and read the ikkarim kepshutan, which puts most of Chabad as michutz lamachaneh.
The ikkarim were written to help Jews confused by Christians and other meshichist groups. If they say the moshiach is part of God, it’s out. If they say daven to someone other than Hashem (which the sicha from 1979 says explicitly,) it’s out. The saying of yechi reflects this view of the Rebbe as super being. So does saying Der Rebbe vet helfn. So does bowing down to empty chairs as if the Rebbe is still in there. It’s not LMT saying this, it’s the gedolim kana”l. And that’s why switching der rebbe for der eigel is so effective. It breaks you out of the nonsense and makes you realize you have turned your rebbe into an eigel, an intermediary to Hashem instead of davening to Hashem Himself.Az yimalei sechok pinu. I guess YWN agrees we’re in a state of geulah.
The whole sukka vs shaving and hoyche kedusha thing is a red herring.
Yes, there is such a thing as Moshe Rabbeinu who was Hashem’s shaliach. Mosh Rabbeinu went out of his way to not say he was Hakadosh Baruch Hu, and went out of his way to tell people not to daven to him. The Rambam knew about Moshe Rabbeinu and still wrote his 13 ikkarim. So clearly there is no stirah between Moshe Rabbeinu and the 13 ikkarim. In fact, chazal tell us that Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so they WOULDN’T pray to him. I guess you’re saying the Rambam didn’t read the Torah and had no clue about Moshe Rabbeinu when he wrote the 13 ikkarim, but then why do Rambam Yomi if you believe the Rambam was so mistaken?
The rest of klal yisroel has accepted the 13 ikkarim as ikkarim, and NO other chassidus says about their Rebbe what Chabad says. Satmar chassidim love their Rebbe but don’t say der rebbe vet helfn. They don’t make their rebbe a god. I appreciate the hodaas baal din that you don’t hold of the Rambam’s 13 ikkarim, however.
Syag, thanks for the backup about people praying to the Rebbe. It PROVES that many understand atzmus kepshuto.
Would you chabadskers agree that the Jews who say “adoneinu boreinu” or say “Rebbe YHVH” are wrong?
Just asking.About the line that moshiach doesn’t have to be alive:
Growing up, all i heard was how every generation has a moshiach and Chabad said their guy is the one that best fits the generation’s moshiach. So based on the chabad of my youth, once the Rebbe died 25 years ago there was a new candidate. So it’s a machlokes the chabad of my youth and current chabad if the Rebbe is moshiach. The chabad of my youth would declare that only christians believe in dead moshiachs, and anyone who died was clearly not the moshiach. The Chabad of my youth would say that the random wackos in yerushalayim claiming to be moshiach are better candidates than the “heintigger” (previous) rebbe.
Of course, the “Stump the rabbi” video says that all chabadskers believe the Rebbe is alive, just a question of whether or not to publicize it.
As for the gemaras that the moshiach can be dead, there is also a gemara that there is no moshiach. And the Rambam says moshiach can’t be dead. The Rambam is the pillar of Chabad halacha, so you can’t disown him for this halacha once it becomes inconvenient. the Rambam says moshiach is alive, just like Chabad said 30 years ago.
I don’t need to understand Chabad’s twisted atzmus. I need to understand the ikkarim. If atzmus contradicts ikkarim, it’s treif no matter how many times you say otherwise. I don’t waste my time understanding the Trinity. Why should I waste my time on the Rebbe’s kefira?
Yes, you may have a more charitable reading of atzmus to not be deification. Unfortunately, the behavior of Chabadniks as noted shows that charitable definitions are just palliatives for the outsiders, not intrinsic Chabad beliefs. My view of it is backed up by both gedolim and the behavior of Chabad, which indicates that peshuto kemashma’o, that the Rebbe turned himself into a god and is worshipped kind of like a god. Said gedolim and said behavior noted above.
Again, the 1979 siacha asked how can you daven to a rebbe? The answer was the Rebbe is the same as G-d chalila afra lepumei. This DIRECTLY contradicts the ikkarim and says nivra=borei. Some chabadniks do say adoneinu boreinu so they eliminate the fig leaf that there’s a difference. Good for them- at least they’re being more intellectually honest about their avoda zara.
But let’s prove it to all you chabadniks. To prove it, all you have to do is substitute “the eigel” for the Rebbe for typical chabad phrases and it sounds the same. The eigel will help, the eigel runs the world, etc. If it wasn’t avoda zara , it should fail.Daasyochid, yes, it’s epistemic closure. Any gadol who points out the obvious is no longer a gadol. And thus they get trapped into avoda zara r”l
Sechel hayashar, a google search will reveal the quote from Rav Menashe Klein zt”l where he says that.
CR won’t allow me to post the link but let Google be your friend. It’s there.
Here’s the quote:
Crown Heights, NY – Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”
The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.
“This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”
His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.
Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”
Anyusername open, saying “you don’t understand chassidus” is kind of dumb. I don’t need to understand chassidus. I need to understand the ikkarim.
If it sounds like avoda zara/ violation of ikkarim, and the gedolim agree with me, then there’s no need to consider it further. Yes, I’m aware you have highly nuanced answers to say it’s not avoda zara. But you are forced to agree that, if interpreted like me, it’s avoda zara. And hanisayon yoreh that many Lubavitchers do in fact cross these lines.
Find me another chassidus that says Der Rebbe vet helfn or says that their Rebbe didn’t die, other than the culty sects. If it’s mainstream chassidus, it should exist. And it doesn’t. You guys are the only ones on this path of human worship.Litvishkeit is yiddishkeit without shailas. We have a kesher to Hashem and daven to Hashem. And we still have moshiach, just he has to actually fulfill the conditions in the Rambam, namely being alive and actually building the beis hamikdash instead of making up a silly vort to turn a building in Brooklyn into a beis hamikdash.
All Jews are “part” of Hashem, yes.
At a very low level, Hashem’s neshama connects us to Him. Human beings are so loft that the malachim wanted to say shira to Adam Harishon. Yes. All true.
THAT SAID
We are still nivra and Hashem is still the borei. That is why it’s called elohim acheirim. There are other powers. But Hashem is above them and controls them. Malachim have powers too.
It is still assur to daven to a human being.
Hashem Himself has no guf.
Hashem alone runs the world.
Hashem is rishon and acharon.
It violates ikkarim to say Hashem has a form, so the Rebbe’s words of atzmus umahus melubash baguf are kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say someone other than Hashem runs the world, so saying “The Rebbe helps” is kefira.
It violates ikkarim to say that you can daven to anyone other than Hashem, so the Rebbe’s use of atzmus to say you can daven directly to a Rebbe are kefira.My source is the Rebbe’s own teshuva from 1979. And the gedolim quoted who agree that it’s kefira. As people here seem to not know how to navigate threads, I will repeat them again:
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
Rav Menachem Mann Shach zt”l
Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (chassidish posek who clearly understands chassidus and still says yechi is apikorsus)
yblc”t Rav Aharon Feldman zt”l (if people believe the Rebbe didn’t die and thus deifying him)
yblc”t Rav Hershel Schachter shlit”a (can be heard on his lecture “segulos and superstitions”, available where his lectures usually are available)Prior to 1979, before atzmus, the Rebbe was just another guy who claimed to be moshiach. No big deal, history is full of them, some of them (like Shlomo Molcho) remembered more fondly than others.
Yerushalayim today is as well Walk around Yerushalayim and you’ll bump into a few claimants for the same crown, all harmless. Atzmus crossed the line. So when Lubavitchers say yechi about a guy who died, saying he’s alive it sounds like deification, with backup from the Rebbe’s own writings to confirm these suspicious. When Lubavitchers say The Rebbe runs the world, it sounds like the tazmus kefira. When Lubavitchers say the items used by the Rebbe have “Elokus” (to quote the words from the “Stump the Rabbi” guy ), it sounds like deification. When The same stump the rabbi guy says the Rebbe can’t make a mistake , even though Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, it sounds like deification. When said Stump the Rabbi guy says “everyone believes the Rebbe is alive, just a question of do we tell outsiders”, it kind of confirms suspicions. This goes beyond tzror hachaim that everyone has so please don’t try that red herring. When there are videos of Lubavitchers bowing down to an empty chair that the Rebbe once sat in, that looks like deification. When there are videos of the Chabad LAg Baomer parade where every group performs in front of the Rebbe’s chair as if he’s alive, that looks like deification. When you hear multiple eyewitness stories about people who davened to the Rebbe direcly, it sounds like deification.
In short, everything Lubavitch in Crown Heights does looks strongly like the kefira put forth by the Rebbe. So yes, stay away.
It’s easy to accept Lubavitch when you’re an am haaretz looking for a late minyan with vodka, but the more you know, the worse it looks. Yes, chassidus crossed many theological lines that started the slippery slope. Chabad reached rock bottom of the slope with the deification. Just read the ikkarei emuna and judge for yourself.Chabad has 2 sets of beliefs- one that they tell outsiders and one that they really believe. Atzmus teshiva is out there now for all to read. So is the basi legani maamar.
But I’m just a poste balabos. Ask your rabbonim.
Cut out the middle man- daven to Hashem directly! Have bitachon that Hashem will help as He alone runs the world. Do hiskashrus to Hashem via dveykus to His middos.
Become of Chossid of Hashem instead of giving money to some grifter “Rebbe”This thread is mufrach minei ubei
Israel is a maaseh satan according to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Maaseh satan needs not offer any hakaras hatov because it’s not supposed to have any good midah.
Mima nafshach.Is it lashon hara to tell people not to hoin Jews for Yoshke or similar groups?
Was it lashon hara when people warned others about Shabsai Tzvi?
Was it lashon hara when the Pharisees (the “snags of their day) warned people not to fall for Yoshke’s shtick?
As for the loshon hara, it’s not lashon hara to tell people to avoid avoda zara. Ein lecha toeles gedola mizu.
Can any Chabdsker please explain this line tom e?
“er, der rebbe un der aibershter zeinen ein zach”Which translates as “the Rebbe and Hashem are one thing”, from the atzmus teshuva?
I mean it sounds like straight-up heresy to me. It fit into saying “The Rebbe will help” but not into Yiddishkeit.
And if you believe in it, why not just request from the Rebbe directly instead of asking him to ask Hashem?
And if not, then you hold your own Rebbe is an apikoires just like us. So why be Chabad?
What is the practical difference between saying “The Rebbe will help” and “The eigel will help”?
Chossid, Rav Hershel Shachter’s opinion on Chabad can be heard in his wonderful lecture on segulos and superstitions which is easily available online.
All you have to do is google “daven to rebbe” and you will come up with people who say that, forget about my sources.
All you have to do is google “rebbe god”.
And no, saying der rebbe vet hefn means Rebbe as God. It’s using Rebbe as intermediary, the EXACT thing the Rambam says was early avoda zara, and what the meforshim say the mistake of the eigel was. Chabad goes back thousands of years to the maaseh eigel. The Jews knew Hashem created the world, just though they needed an intermediary.For any chabadsker who is willing to answer:
1. What was the question that the Rebbe in 1979 wanted to answer with “atzmus umahus melubash baguf”?
2. What were the answers that the Rebbe didn’t like?
3. How did atzmus umahus melubash beguf answer the question?
4. a superficial translation is that Hashem in a human body chalila, which sounds EXACTLY like Christianity. They should sue for plagiarism, along with the idea of dying and being resurrected messiah
Yes I know a typical neshama is chelek Eloka but yet nobody ever said you can daven to a human until the Rebbe.Oy! Der eigel vet helfn
Ok We’ll do this again. I have listed multiple gedolim, some alive some not so. Their writings are perusable for all, and it is clearly better for you to speak to them. Like I said, my friend WITNESSED people davening to the Rebbe. Others have heard people say they daven to the Rebbe. It’s the pashut pshat in atzmius, and if you’re not davening directly to the Rebbe then there is no need for the whole “atzmus melubash baguf” sicha. That sicha directly violates the ikkarim that Hashem has no body and that you can’t daven to anyone other than Hashem. A Stump the Rabbi video says that the Rebbe can’t make a mistake, which is clear deification as any human makes mistakes. Another says that everything the rebbe touches had “Elokus”. More deification. You can’t see it and I feel bad for you but don’t listen to me, listen to gedolim. If gedolim say you are eating treif, first you put the sandwich down then you hock. You sau “rest of gedolim”. Which gadol today has come out in support of yechi as NOT being apikorsus, OTHER than chabad people? Name them.
As for the ones i named, a simple google search can reveal exactly what they said and when. No secrets. Just I’m not supposed to share them here as per the rules of the CR.
Yaakov Avinu lo meis was a chiddush based on a drasha. Most meforshim learn it NOT pashut pshat, and it was only due to the drasha. Where is this drasha that the Rebbe didn’t die? Honestly speaking, he was an invalid 2 years earlier due to the stroke. He had a second stroke afterwards, then he died. Nobody is certified as dead until they get examined. the death certificate is freely available via google search to see which doctor signed it. Then the body undergoes tahara and shmira. So it’s a long period from the time the person dies until they are buried, Someone who was in the ambulance confirmed that the Rebbe’s body was doing the things that dead bodies do when they are decomposing. And once you’re buried there’s no clawing out of 6 feet of dirt even if you are alive and healthy. Yet there are signs in Crown Heighs saying “der Rebbe lebt begashmiyus”. Signs over 770 saying Rebbe Shlit”a. Spare me the “there’s nothing wrong here!” Talk. We can tell deification when we see it.
Chossid, I have already listed the gedolim but I’ll be happy to do so again:
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
Rav Shach ZT”L
Rav Chaim Kohn ZT”L (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (if they say yechi)
yblct Rav Aharon Feldman Shlita (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
Rav Hershel Shachter shlit”a (as per the segulos and superstitions lecture)
(Many gedolim off the record who don’t want to have a smear campaign against them because they have better things to do, which you find out by having a kesher with Daas Torah)
That’s quite the range. It should be enough to at least be me’orer a safeik.
Why risk your olam haba?
Of course you have questions i can’t answer. I’m not a gadol, just a balabos loser who hangs out in the CR. But the gedolim who do know better than me and aren’t fooled by sophistry have paskened.I’d open up a Rambam in hilchos melachim and make sure he did what he was supposed to. Alive? Built the beis hamikdosh? Ok, he’s my king. Otherwise, update the wikipedia page of false moshiachs and add another one.
I had an older relative a”h who was zoche to attend a Nevorodok yeshiva in Europe. He told me the hanhala there Assered drinking on Purim because it lead to “znus”. Did they not know the laws, or are the situations that override the laws?
Someone else told me they didn’t drink in Europe because they couldn’t afford it.
Chossid, what is also clear is that your view of Moshe Rabbeinu comes via the distirted Chabad view pushed in the sichos. Chabad distorted Moshe Rabbeinu and placed the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation. So everything needs to go through Moshe Rabbeinu, Moshe Rabbeinu is your connection to Hashem, etc. Yet Rashi goes out of his way to say that, as great as Moshe Rabbeinu was (and he was the greatest), it revolved around davening to Hashem. Rashi makes that clear in parshas amaleik by Videi Moshe keveidim and in Chukas by the nachash. Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so he would NOT turn into an avoda by people distorting his role. Yet today we unfortunately see that it has happened. It hurts, like it hurts when you see your friend going OTD. Same kind of knife-in-the-heart pain.
Chossid, you ask some very good questions. I refer you to the Rem”a by hilchos erev rosh hashana that paskens that you should NOT daven to the meis in the kever, rather you daven to Hashem. Moshe Rabbeinu was Hashem’s shaliach, but the Jews didn’t daven to Moshe- they davened to Hashem. A rebbe teaches you the way of Hashem, but like the Rambam says in hilchos avoda zara, davening to anyone other than Hashem is avoda zara. I’m not a gadol so it’s not my job to know the answers to all the questions. But I do know that gedolim called chabad as it is today avoda zara so I should stay away. You can passel a few of them but you can’t passel all of them. Safeik avoda zara lechumra.
I feel bad for you, Chossid. Since your grandparents weren’t Chabbad you’re not gezhe (The Lubavitch word for meyuchas, ie the families which were from Russia) , which restricts your ability to get good jobs within chabad. If you’re going to drink the Koolaid (Flavorade really but Koolaid is more popular , sorry Jimmy Jones of Jonestown) you should at least earn the good job for it.
If litvaks are wrong, no big deal. We find out who moshiach is when he comes and builds the beis hamikdosh and accept him, whoever he is. We had a right, based on the Rambam , to reject chabad so we followed Torah. But for you, the stakes of being wrong are much higher. According poskim you are oveir avoda zara. Why take such big risks in damaging your neshama?
When I was younger, there used to be kosher lepesach peanut oil and more matza meal products. The Jewish Observer had pictures of women. Now the products have disappeared, and women are nary to be seen in frum magazines. Why? Because manufacturers gear themselves to be kosher for all to make the biggest profit possible. Jewish magazines exclude women so as to become acceptable to even the frummest of families. So why should Yiddishkeit be any different? If you know that many gedolim consider your yiddishkeit to be yehareig ve’al yaavor, doesn’t it make sense to drop it in favor of a more acceptable form of yiddishkeit? One that retains many elements of yours but without the safeik tarfus? EG neochassidus or similar.
And what do you mean barely started your day? You’re not touching the computer until after shacharis and learing in the beis midrash for an hour.
There’s a mishna in pirkei avos that lists 48 ways to acquire Torah. Follow that mishna
Joseph, there will be a major shofar blowing that will be heard all around the world. My assumption is the Internet and all social media will stop working due to yitami chataim min haaretz.
Ein od milvado. Hashem alone runs the world, and it is only fitting to Daven to Hashem and make requests of Him. I pray that one day you will be able to accept the truth. Kol tuv