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If there was really such a prohibition to make a state, bayis sheini never would have happened. And Rabbi Akiva would never have supported Bar Kochba. Rabbi Akiva is quoted all over the Zohar, not just in nigleh.
You can’t dismantle Israel because limud torah is so important that it overrides antiZionist hatred of Israel. As it can’t be dismantled without hundreds of thousands of yidden thrown out of learning, it can’t be done.
From Hakatan:
AAQ:
It is absolutely forbidden for Jews to have political rule there before Mashiach comes. Period.Where is this written? I can’t find this issur in the Rambam or the Shulchan Aruch.
From Hakatan:
I have never seen any NK advocate for the killing of any Jew. It’s true that they have marched with undesirables, but they have never advocated violence against anyone, from reports that I have seen.I guess we are to memory hole every time Neturei Karta flew to Iran or supported hezbollah. They supported people who literally called for Israel’s physical destruction.
Nobody used to apologize for kapos.Shulchan Aruch (choshen mishpat siman 388) is rather clear on those who incite goyim on Jews. That’s not “questionable”, it’s moridin velo maalin afilu bezman hazeh. Retzicha isn’t “questionable”, it’s as much of a yehareig ve’al yaavor as gilui arayos and avoda zara.
There is no justification for that, even taking quotes of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l out of context doesn’t justify murder.
Democracy is needed when you need the wisdom of the masses. A divine king needs no democracy.
Biden (or whoever was running the White House in his name) went out of his way to limit what Israel could do. It was only after Biden’s disastrous debate that Israel was able to go into Rafah and dop what needed to be done.
Look at all the Democrats attacking Trump for daring to stop Iran from getting nukes. Why would any yid for for Democrats when the party is strongly Pro Palestinian? It used to be the party elders were Pro Israel and the younger generation was more Pro Palestinian. Now the elders have joined the youngers.
Rav Yoel Teitelbaum zt”l didn’t just have a view on Zionism. He also felt that secular education was treif, and had a number of strict rulings in other areas. He would view the educated people who dare to speak in his name despite not shaving their heads and growing long payos as shkootzim, and some of them as malshinim as well. Don’t judge the Satmar Rebbe zt”l by the people on the Internet.
I would also like to point out that in the famous statement of Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt”l hy”d, he mentions that his words comparing the Zionists to Amaleik do NOT apply to the tinokos shenishbu. Reb Elchonon Wasserman zt”l hy”d would be appalled at the things being said in his name.
The Zionists are preparing Eretz Yisroel by paving roads, planting trees, building plumbing, etc. When moshiach comes, the yidden won’t be starting from scratch. Plenty of gedolim supported returning to Eretz Yisroel, and would be appalled that other Yidden who claim to speak for Torah reitz on the Palestinians and Iranians to attack yidden in Eretz yisroel.
Satmar and Neturei Karta have similar views. However, in 1967 the Satmar Rebbe said that everything he says is just between Jews and not for the goyim. Rav Henkin zt”l said that anyone who tries to incite Arabs on the Yidden in Israel is a rodeif and moseir. Mesira is one of the worst crimes in shulchan aruch (v. Chohen mishpat siman 388 seif 1). Trying to egg on Palestinians and Iranians to kill Jews makes them kapos. The views of roitzchim and moisrim are irrelevant. Nobody asks a kapo what his views are. By contrast, the REAL Torah Antizionists like Rav Shternbuch zt”l pray that the yidden of Eretz Yisroel be protected from the Iranians. They don’t go hugging Khameini. As the Satmar Rebbe zt”l said in 1967, velamalshinim al tehi sikva. As the kotxzker rebbe zt”l said, frum alaein is a roitzeach. Don’t let the NK who hang out here ruin the views of real tzaddikim like Rav Shternbuch zt”l. One can be antizionist without rooting for yidden to die and without giving aid and comfort to Palestinians on their podcasts. The Satmar Rebbe’s views on Zionism are one in a sea of views. But the Satmar Rebbe zt”l wasn’t a killer. Don’t throw Satmar and NK in the same boat.
On the other hand, we know that most of the Pro Palestinian protesters are paid by various NGO’s. I always wonder how much these NK guys get paid for their redifus. Vos tut men nisht far kein parnassa.Rav Gorelick ztl was in YU. He helped start Yeshiva of South Fallsburg.
wtsp, you can ask farkert as well- if Eretz Yisroel is ours, why root against the state? Let the Zionists get the land ready for the maaminim bnei maaminim to take it over when moshiach comes.
Rav Shach zt”l was certainly no Zionist, and the antizionists here have a slew of quotes from him. Yet, when Menachem Begin asked for a bracha of success for the Osirak reactor destruction, Rav Shach zt”l gave it. And yblct Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita, head of the antizionist eida hachareidis, talks about Hashem saving the toshvei eretz yisroel from Iran. Clearly they don’t believe Israel needs to be destroyed- merely replaced by the messianic regime. Even the antizionists can rejoice in Israel being saved from Iran instead of fuming.
Chaim87,
Yeah the 3 oaths are quoted in an Aggadeta gemara based on pesukim in Shir Hashirim which is NOT part of the Torah. And it’s not brought down in the big poskim – not in yad hachazakah, not in shulchan aruch or nosei keilim. As well, the Maharsha there asks, if the 3 oaths are a thing, how did they go up during bayis sheini? He answers that it was with the permission of the Persian government so it was ok. The Meshech chochma said the ratification of the Balfour Declaration was enough to permit it. The Satmar Rebbe zt”l was one opinion in a sea of opinions.The ironic thing is the Satmar Rebbe zt”l had many views on many topics. He held that secular studies were forbidden. He held that people need to have very short hair and long payos. He would be appalled that his views are bashmutzed by the impure mouths of those who clearly have a lot of secular studies under their belts and don’t dress the way a yid should, in the view of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l. He would refer to these people as modernishe tziyoinistim!
Yup. Horseshoe theory. Halacha Eisav sonei leYaakov and no Eisav is immune from its siren song. Har Sinai is called Sinai because it created sinah, and we have no choice but to rely on Hashem instead of politicians. It is time to let go of tumas MAGA.
I think we should ask the gedolim the Antizionists quoted during the wzo hock- Rav Dov Landau Shlita, Rav Aharon Feldman shlita, et al, what they think of stopping hundreds of thousands of people from learning.
Actually what I wrote above is wrong and I retract it. there is a need for hakaras hatov to someone for having a machshava tova even though the yeshuah would have been brought about in other ways.
Didn’t the chareidi parties agree to a draft compromise? How do we understand that in light of this thread?
We pray for Moshiach to come and the replacement of the current state with a monarchy. We certainly don’t pray for destruction. Let Hashem run the world. Let Hashem choose what He wants done with all the nice roads and airports built by the tziyoinistim. And let Hashem choose what to do with hundreds of thousand of yidden learning in kollel. Thinking we know better than Hashem is heresy.
This subject is kefira. Hashem runs the world. As Rav Shternbuch shlita said, Hashem is protecting the people of Eretz Yisroel from Iran. They must absolutely thank Hashem instead of thanking their army or America.
Lehavdil the subject reminds me of whiny sports fans. When their rival wins they say the rival team needs to thank the refs/umps. Follow Rav Shternbuch shlita, no need to be a sore loser.
Somejew, so you have the broad shoulders to stop hundreds of thousands of yidden learning in kollel, many of whom curse out the tziyoinistim with the same fervor that you do, from learning?
That takes a gadol hador. Klal gadol- no actual gedolei hador post in YWN. That obviously includes me. I’m sure my rabbeim do not want me posting here. Nebach I’m an avaryan legabei ywn cr.This is a shortcoming of every news article, not just the ones about Israel. Every news article implies natural causes instead of Hashem. The Antizionists are just as much a tool of Hashem as the Zionists. YWN should add a disclaimer to EVERY news article that “Hashem runs the world”. But people only complain when it’s Israel doing the winning.
The sin of the Zionists was taking people away from Torah. If dismantling the state is going to cause hundreds of thousands to stop learning, then dismantling the state is just Anti-Zionist Zionism.
Chareidi parties agreed to allow bochurim to serve in the IDF before the Iran attacks began. Lots of good points in this thread which raise a question as to how and why they agreed.
“naturallyu reduce” being code words for many starving and many going otd due to lack of money, and a lot of learning stopped. Who is taking achrayus for all the bittul Torah? Is dismantling the state worth all the bittul Torah?
Let’s say UJM gets his wish and the state of Israel is dismantled and replaced with a UN protectorate. And let’s say the Yidden of Eretz Yisroel are protected somehow from being slaughtered. Is the UN protectorate funding hundreds of thousands of chareidim in yeshivos and kolellim? Or do hundreds of thousands of frum yidden who worship Hashem instead of the medina starve to death?
The story here about Reb Aharon Kotler zt”l the gadol who transformed litvish America, is as false as the claim that the Rebbe is physically alive.
Beryl is the name of a jewel. It is NOT related to the Yiddish Berel, which is a diminutive of Ber “bear”
One is a jewel, one is a bear.
The Satmar Rebbe zt”l certainly didn’t hold of everything in the Divrei Yoel, since he tried twice to settle in Eretz Yisroel and allowed municipal voting in 1955.
The Satmar Rebbe zt”l was one of many gedolim in that tekufa. there was no bas kol declaring him more authoritative than the other gedolim at that time. Certainly other gedolim can argue on him.The USA long ago abandoned the conscript army because ill-motivated conscripts performed poorly. Drafting a bunch of yeshiva students raised on tziyoinistim yemach shemam will not be an effective force.
Not debating the pros and cons, just making a practical point.
The guilty verdict has so far done nothing but help Trump win a larger portion of black voters.
Hashem runs the world no matter who wins. Trump and Biden are both illusions.Our own opinions are influenced by whatever social media and Whatsapp groups we are in. Rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are above such pettiness and see things clearly.
Plenty of mechalelei shabbos in Israel. Also plenty of chareidim learning Torah whose lives deserve to be protected. they say tzyoinistim yemach shemam as well as anyone here. Why judge them for death merely because they are doing the mitzvah oof yishuv eretz yisroel?
Most rabbis who do so give general guidelines without mentioning a specific candidate.
Roshei yeshiva might be more direct but it’s personal not as a rabbi.The law is selectively enforced of course.
If Neturei Karta was around at the time of the Purim story, they would be cheering on Haman’s decree because “think of all the reshaim who would be dying!”
Hashem doesn’t want death. He wants life.
It is clear that Hashem allowed the Zionists to be successful so Anti-Zionists could have an outlet.
UJM, feel free to move there and take up residence. You will be mekayem yishuv eretz yisroel without having to give any money to the Zionists.
Based on the maps in the chumashim, many more countries will have parts of Eretz Yisroel when moshiach comes. We will take them all.
IYH all of them will be ours soon.What is it about Zionism that causes so many threads here in the ywn cr? It’s like bashing Shabsai Tzvi and Jacob Frank. They aren’t heintigge tzaros.
Another famous quote from the Chofetz Chaim zt”l:
Frum is a galach, a Yid is ehrlach.NK has shown us the difference. Their frumkeit leads them to be mosrim and rodfim r”l.
May Hashem keep protecting the yidden of Eretz Yisroel until He is ready to replace the Zionists with Malchus Beis Dovid.
I feel bad for Neturei Karta. 75 years of saying “The Zionist dream is dead!” and “Israel will fall any minute!”. The state outlasted the unified Neturei karta and Satmar movements. Clearly Hashem didn’t pasken like the Satmar Rebbe zt”l . You’re better off being like Rav shternbuch shlita and other gedolim- protest the evil of the Zionists while still acknowledging that Hashem is protecting His land and is not bringing a catastrophe to kill the hundreds of thousands of chareidim el dvaro who live there.
Neturei Karta are paid for their work. Unfortunately they are not the only ones who sell out yidden for gelt or attention.
There are hundreds of thousands of yidden in Eretz yisroel who hate Zionism and everything it stands for . They, like us, daven that the secular zionist state be replaced with a malchus beis dovid.
But considering Israel just celebrated birthday #76, at some point the Empty Wagon bandwagoners need to admit that perhaps Hashem doesn’t hate the Toshvei Eretz Yisroel as much as they do. As the famous anti-Zionist Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita, gaavad of the Badatz Eida Hachareidis just said, Hashem is protecting Eretz Yisroel from Iran. This despite Neturei Karta meeting with Iranian leaders and begging them to attack Israel. The Zionist state needs to go but Hashem has taken sides here as per Rav Shternbuch. Not with the zionists chas veshalom but with the tzaddikim who are toshvei Eretz Yisroel and being mekayem the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel. If Hashem would have allowed it , the Satmar Rebbe zt”l would have been successful in one of his 2 attempts to move there, and then everyone would root for the safety of the toshvei Eretz Yisroel. Nu, it wasn’t meant to be.
Netanyahu just started putting on tefillin. IYH with all secular Israelis along with shemiras shabbos. Then we could be zoiche to the geula sheleima.Hakatan, when NK march with those who want to destroy Israel, it certainly is a message that they want to destroy Israel. When the author of a popular antiZionist book goes on goyishe podcasts and shows to denounce Israel, he is certainly trying to destroy Israel.
The Zionist dream was over the moment they realized that that the world hates Jews and would not let them live in peace in their own country.
The Neturei Karta dream ended as well- Hashem has shown His hand that He will not allow the yidden of Eretz Yisroel to be destroyed.
So we have this status quo where nobody is happy.So learn Torah and do mitzvos, let Hashem take care of the politics.
The anti-Semitic agitators are sponsored by left-wing money- Soros, Pritzker, Rockefeller. Plenty of right-wing antisemitism too, don’t get me wrong. But in choosing the lesser of 2 evils, it looks like you have to go Republican for now.
As Politico reported recently, the agitators get handsomely rewarded for their efforts by left-wing groups and the Qatar-funded pro-Palestinian groups. Vos tut men nisht far kein parnassah…