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Emunah, Bas-tzion, tziona, tikvah, na’ava, bruriah
more_2: faranrak margolis is a frum jewish lady of persian descent (hence, faranak). her book is highly acclaimed by mechanchim/kiruv professionals, and has several haskamos. the only one i remember off-hand is from R’ Kelemen from Neve.
fyi: there are plenty of ehrliche, frum yidden without obviously jewish names, there’s no need to be condescending.
@the little i know:
Amazing post! Very good points! i really enjoyed your post, i just read it twice then read it to my husband as well. 🙂 thanks!
wow. really. i teach in a yeshivishe boys elementary (read: low-level english studies) and we read this book in my THIRD GRADE class.
sooo difficult to believe that this is being read in seventh grade, and sooooo difficult to believe the reason for the ban. they don’t come more squeaky clean than this book.
but then, i went to a fairly “out of town” bais yaakov, where we learned to put on nail polish in home ec, and where we watched disney’s snow white in seventh grade art class. 🙂 and the teacher made a joke by the kiss at the end that he was performing CPR.
there’s a very well-written response to the book by a satmar lady in the chronicles section of the jewish press.
thanks for the clarification.
i think that being called “a baby” is an insult- to me that sounds like the teacher is personally offended or annoyed and is loosing his/her temper with the kid. a parent/teacher should never call names. i would theoretically tell a student, privately and calmly, that if he can’t do his work as befits a third grader then i have no choice but to ask him to leave. with that said, i would give him a chance to show me that he can work. and then i would be reasonable–kids are kids, and esp boys are boys. they’re not going to sit with their hands on their desks behaving like angels till 4:30.
i personally left school at 16 and went to an oot seminary because of issues i had with my BY. but i think for every person with a bad school experience there are several who had good experiences. i don’t think its fair or accurate to judge all teachers and mechanchim negatively, and paint them black with one brush stroke.
i don’t regular internet access and wont be able to reply, but i will definitely read any responses when i can.February 21, 2012 4:58 am at 4:58 am in reply to: New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody #857136
based on the OP’s screen name, i don’t think she/he was trying to be a yentah, etc. It seems that as a shadchan s/he was wondering out loud if there are signs or whatnot to look out for while dating.
keeping far away from the topic of this particular couple, i can only imagine the pain of either a terrible marriage that causes one spouse to go off, or the terrible pain of a marriage that breaks up because one spouse no longer wants to be frum.
why do you assume that a punishment is to “cause pain”?? i think your example with a kid fiddling at his desk is not true to life because i can’t imagine punishing a kid for fiddling/drawing, etc. i’m not going back and forth, and i never said i “call…babies”
i said: i think that just as you put a kid in the corner in playgroup when he hits, or send him to his room to calm down, a kid can be put in the hallway, or computer lab, or office, or diff class to do his work. a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class. this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.
i did say that other teachers put kids in my class pretty regularly and i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”. this happens so often and so not harshly that i’ve never seen a kid embarrassed.
it looks like you want to paint the whole world of chinuch black. its easy to go on a website and say things like “those who can do…” and to say very harsh things about mechanchim and the “whole system”.
i did not read the article, by the way. i saw this thread and wanted to know if there are other teachers here, not backseat ones, and what their thoughts are.
finally, i find popa’s line about “treat the students like fellow humans” offensive because i specifically said that i’m very careful with derech eretz as are many teachers i know.
it is a punishment, and it is last resort. a child shouldn’t need and doesn’t want “opportunity to do quiet work”. i just think that, as the worst i’ll ever do if a child is disrupting my class enough, its rather mild. and i know that kids are put into my class being told, “if you can’t act like a fourth grader, sit in the third grade classroom” but they never look embarrassed or crushed. at all.
i can’t account for all principals that people have issues with. i personally cannot even think about my high school principal without getting upset. i treat my students pleasantly and with respect, and i get angry when i hear teachers screaming or demeaning their students. i just happen to think that this can be used as a consequence.
what would you suggest teachers do instead?
@ yitayningwut: i like the rosh yeshiva story!
r’ m. nissel has a similar story – he’s british and he got pulled over in the states for going down a one-way the wrong way. he told the cop “so sorry, i’m from england. we drive on the opposite side of the road.” he says the cop looked confused and just mumbled that he should be more careful in the future.
yes, i do and would send them to any convenient, supervised, quiet, boring location to do their work. it’s like a time-out; the purpose is not so much to punish as it is to make them desist disruptive behavior.
about the principal…i can’t really disagree with anything you said. but i used to teach in a different school (fifth grade, boys) where there was no fear of the principal (he was embarrassingly incompetent and served as a figurehead). though i was shocked the first time i saw this principal “in action” it seems to work without long-term effect. the kids are back on friendly terms with him the next day, and i see the high school boys are all friendly and at ease with him.
there ARE good schools and good teachers around!
i think anything a mekubal tells you to do should be run by a posek/rav first. two stories:
i was told by a mekubal i saw randomly to change my perfectly normal name. my father asked R’Heinamenn (sorry, spelling? from Star K, baltimore) who said his daughter has the same name and it ridiculous to change it.
on the other hand…
i know someone who couldn’t get married for years. he was engaged a couple of times but it never went till the chuppah. he was discussing this with one of the Roshei yeshiva of baltimore (don’t remember which but this is a while ago, and i think it was R’ Ruderman). the rav asked him if there was any reason he could think of for this and the bochur jokingly told him of the time a kabbalist told him that “with a name like that you’ll never make it to the chuppah.” the rav told him, we don’t go to kabbalists, but once you’ve heard that you can’t ignore it. he changed his name and is now married with kids.
any other teachers on here to weigh in opinions? i teach in an elementary boys yeshiva, and its very common place to send a boy down a grade for a while as a last resort punishment. personally, i am very careful not to speak harshly or not to embarrass a student, and i’ve never noticed that this is a super-harsh or embarrassing punishment. they see their brother/cousin/friend and do their work in isolation and boredom. again, i’ve never seen a boy distressed by it. its a shlep and they have to tell their parents, but thats it.
now if i would threaten to send them to the principal, they literally cry and turn all sorts of colors. so why is it so bad?
persians are makbid on dairy and fish together, although only cheese and fish together is the actual problem. i heard years ago that cream cheese and lox is ok because cream cheese isn’t actually cheese as defined by halacha. anyone know if this is valid?
don’t know who you’ve seen doing that but its not a new thing. Persians do this as a sign of respect, generally after shaking an elder’s hand, or after shaking a Kohen’s hand, etc. it’s not meant to be cool – its a respectful gesture from a culture where men kiss on the cheek in greeting, and an elderly person (not just a gadol, but anyone who is elderly and respected) is kissed on the forehead and hand.
what it someone who intends to name his kid an English name names him that name halachically? is it then a Jewish name? eg, “vikarah shmo b’yisrael jake ben moshe boruch…” does that constitute a jewish name? after all, where did the names in tanach come from?
i think that the comparison between the names and the modernized clothing is not fair. though both mens and women’s clothing has changed since way back when, we have for the most part (short skirts and shaitels, esp long ones, notwithstanding) retained our mesorah of tznius. this was always the accepted derech — is there any mekor for saying otherwise? even the chassidish levush dates back only to pre-war europe, when they made a stand and refused to adopt the short jackets of the time.
jewish names are kadosh. i agree with the OP – both my sons have somewhat uncommon (not strange though) torah names that are hard to pronounce – if at some point they are forced to adopt some kind of nickname to survive college/business/etc that’s their choice, but i wouldn’t put the name on them.
i’m sorry, i live in brooklyn but have no idea who he was. can someone explain to me? i’ve been wondering since i saw the front page news story and signs in the yeshiva where i work.
i recently heard in a shiur that it applies even to women re: looking at pritzus. the speaker was not saying that this is to prevent attraction and “being together” but rather just not looking at prusty stuff. the example given was magazine covers in pharmacies and groceries.
the speaker quoted someone (sorry dont remember) as saying that even a women who averts her eyes from pritzus creates a sha’as rachamim where she can say a tefillah right then.
@ 147 – i’ve only seen the red ribbon on frum kallahs. i think its strange because we wear white to symbolize purity from aveiros (yom kipur, kitel, etc) and red, particularly red thread/rope symbolizes the opposite.
not to mention that striking things like a red belt on a pure white dress and red clothing in general are not considered the height of tznius.
and chinese culture notwithstanding i think even in the american goyish society, the bride wears white to symbolize purity (in a different way) and a low red belt seems…i can’t think of a word that would get past moderation…trashy? crude?
also, don’t confuse good vs evil and right vs wrong with TRUE and FALSE which was state of the world before Adam’s sin.
the nazi’s were wrong (ie, immoral) and they were evil. YES people are qualified to say such things — we are told in the Torah to do “hatov vhayashar b’aynay Hashem”– we are to do good and right things, and to show the goyim also.
so although it was bad, wrong, evil, etc. it was also TRUE – it objectively needed to happen.
read R’Miller and what he writes about why the holocaust happened. he doesn’t mince words when he says why we deserve it.
and i think you meant ramchal, not maharshal.
is it stylish also to have a red ribbon belt decorating the kallah’s gown? i’ve seen this recently… am i alone in thinking this is disgusting?
actually, we know: “vgam es hagoy asher ya’avducha, dan anochi” (i’m not near a chumash, but i think that’s correct). when Hashem tells avraham about galus mitzrayim, which was horrible torture and yes, it was from G-d and we needed it, He also says right there and then that the nation who does it WILL be punished.
yes, Hashem decides at times that we need to be punished, and leaves us “open” to our enemies. but who said the nazis/mitzriyim/yivanim/etc. are the ones who have to do it?
so, while situation is RIGHT as is anything that happens in our G-d run world, the perpetrators are EVIL and yes are punished.
i think PBA is making a great point. not to discount hishtadlus, but many times all the talk of the “shidduch crises” and “not enough boys” seems to show a lack in bitachon.
yovel = jubilee
anthropomorphism = if i recall correctly, this is like “lashon benai adam” – when G-d (or anything non human) is described in human terms.
ARWSF: a huge Yasher Koach to you for taking the first step towards healing your family. I hope that you and your husband have the strength to follow thru with the professionals you have contacted.
reading through the posts here, i would caution you that now that you HAVE contacted professionals, you shouldn’t necessarily internalize the messages being said here. i understand many are talking based on personal experience, but so am i. those who are saying “an abuser will abuse again…” is only in a case where you don’t seek help. also, there IS a difference btwn an abusive spouse and an abusive action taken by an angry spouse. as long as you are seeking help and FOLLOWING THROUGH with therapy (individual, couples, family) etc, your marriage and your family have hope.
daven to Hashem for the strength you will need.
even if he really is in seruv now, can one keep going to beis din till one gets the seruv he (she) is after??
the origonal din torah from the city they lived in was in favor of the husband not giving the get. as was the second beis din they went to, in the city that the girl was originally from. just because they strung together a third beis din from their rabbinic friends and put a seruv, the original p’sak is not disregarded.
besides, i believe that it is a halacha of bais din that the prosecuting party must file the case in the bais din of the city where the other person (defendant) lives. in a marriage or business partnership, the case must be filed where the marriage or business was.
so it could very well be that he wasn’t halachically required to show up at any bais din outside of where they lived (and where he continues to live). i know such was the case with a family member of mine.
its unbelievable to anyone who knows even minimal details of the case how rabbanim supported ppl and encouraged them to show up on the MIL’s front lawn to rally. an earlier post (first page, this thread) names a rav who’s apparently chashuv told many to go.
cases like this, as well as all the stuff going on in E”Y scare me– i feel like benai yisrael are like flock without a shephard, so to speak. where are our leaders?!!?
the natural answer that pops into my mind is that we’ve disregarded them so many times, they’ve been so disrespected, and unfortunately recently they’ve been taken advantage of and misled by their middlemen… that we really have no one now to guide us. there’s only so many times even the most loving parent will warn a child before stepping back and letting him learn his lesson.
(just my thought…feel free to disagree, but can this pls not turn into a gadol-bashing thread?)
there was a case in E”Y several weeks (months?) ago where a very young chassidish man was married off to a “shawl” girl (those who have started wearing the muslim-like chador).
after the wedding she refused to be toivel without her chador, and moved back to her mother’s house without accepting the get.
the boy remarried within a few months, causing an uproar about polygamy…but she did accept the get. 🙂
as i posted earlier, my cousin went thru the same story…he had full support of the yeshiva and beis din of where he was living, but all the batai din in NY saw, or tried to see, was a nebach single mother…
the recent demonstration that someone mentioned several posts back is a terrifying example of men being victimized by the “natural” assumption that the woman is always the victim.
i know no details of the case (not even the names of the ppl/families involved), nor which rabbanim are involved and telling ppl to demonstrate on the MIL’s front lawn, but i do KNOW that the husband in this case is acting on daas torah (he’s not in NY state). does his mother deserve ppl with “stop domestic violence” sings on her front lawn? have the rabbanim here in NY who allowed this contacted the husband or the beis din in his city? or does everyone pity the “poor stranded single mother” regardless?
i think its high time that men were treated fairly in abuse and agunah accusations.
there’s a story with R’ Akiva Eiger telling a husband who refuses to give a get that his wife WILL be freed, either through a get or thru his death. the man says “never” and walks out, tripping on the steps and breaking his neck.
i agree with Popa. my cousin went through a terrible divorce several years ago…basically she wouldn’t speak to anyone, contact anyone, just up and disappeared after 3 months of marriage. she had the baby and didn’t contact anyone. turned out at the end she was having an super-emotional (prob. not physical) relationship with someone in a “madrich” position (she was a BT).
long story short, my cousin was advised my beis din (when she wouldn’t show) to continue with legal divorce without her presence and wait on the get till visitation (he had never seen his daughter-she wouldn’t let) and stuff were settled.
not saying its “ok” but…ppl tend to forget that men can also be abused and mistreated! and with daas torah, yes it can sometimes be used as leverage.January 3, 2012 1:09 am at 1:09 am in reply to: "Where Are the Men"-Article in last week's Mishpacha #844402
sorry, i didn’t see the article. is this R’ Leib Kellmen from Prospect Park High School in Brooklyn, or R’ Leib Kelemen (To Kindle a Soul, etc) from Yerushalayim?
in Yichave Da’at, R’ Ovadia Yosef’s shul in har nof, they also ask that the women leave right during ketores, and the men linger after alainu with announcements and singing adon olam. not enforced, but i think there are signs asking very nicely.
i only read the first several posts, but there seems to be a misunderstanding. there is Simchat Bat as held by the modern/reform community where the mother makes a bracha, they have scripture readings, etc. Syrian Sephardim also make what they call a Simchat Bat, which is just a meal/party – similar to a Kiddish, but during the week. the level of fanciness varies, just as by a bris.
i believe it has a lot to do with attitude. for example with regard to dancing at chasunas, when i got married (i’m persian) i refused to have even sephardic sounding hebrew music because i believe that the way those in my generation (i’m in my 20’s) see that type of dancing is as a chance to be provocative, rebellious, and cool. however i have gone to events and seen pure, pure rabbis and rebbetzins dancing sephardic with no provacativeness, and none of the trief feeling–it even looks refined.
dandelion: while its true that all exercise machines may use movements that are not tznius (hence the separate gyms) the attitude and feeling is not in rebellion to the hashkafa of tznius. even swimming is not comparable to zumba where the eyes and body are losing sensitivity.
“only women…” it has nothing to do with women/men, it has to do with the harm you are causing your own world view
BaalHaBooze, great point. you can further add that on Purim when the threat WAS phyiscal, we did not make an army, but rather fasted and added to our tefillah.
i assume everyone realizes that the OP was asking this question, not as a question but as a “shtuch” to the chareidim who get exemptions?
i’ve heard that before the bas kol announces “bas ploni l’ploni” all the malachim give “suggestions” regarding the shidduch of the neshama. before a shidduch is made, the neshama has to have all those names suggested. be’ezras Hashem, this flurry of activity and suggetions will hasten the time till you meet your zivug amiti.
ajk – “new square…”
all that shows is that the rabbonim they have behind them told them to make such a team available. i don’t know, but i would bet that the female team did not start with a few outspoken women going on radio shows and giving interviews with left wing newspapers and petitioning and suing the rabbinical board to allow them to form a team. yeah, i kinda doubt that…
we have gedolim for a reason. hatzola has been selflessly and perfectly providing for the community for years going solely on advice from their core group of rabbonim. no radio talk show host, council member, (or coffeeroom comment 🙂 ) will make a difference because this is not some political program trying to gain public approval.
its a frum chessed organization, and as such it answers only to the knowledgeable and experienced rabbonim who head it. and thats how it should be, imho.
think of it as chasdai Hashem. often a person is unsure whether to continue going out with someone or not and ends up dragging it out and second guessing herself. you were unsure but didn’t break it off, and then he did. there is no second guessing-its out of your hands. accept it peacefully from Hashem.
also, if he didn’t the reason to the shadchan its out of the realm of your bechira to learn a lesson from it.
if you were moving towards ending it, be happy its over sooner and out of your hands.
this advice was given to me after my first shidduch that didn’t work out by an older friend who had already been dating for years at that point…hope it helps.
i heard in R’ Hutner’s name that how could it be Eisav was a rasha from the womb? (if he was considered a yisrael mumar, that means potentially he could have been a tzaddik. yet we see that from the womb he’s struggling to get out when Rivka passes by bais avoda zara. where’s his bechira?)
he answers that Eisav was not a rasha from the womb, nobody is. in fact, Eisav wanted to go and destroy the avoda zara. that was his machlokes with yaakov, to actively destroy avoda zara or to just learn.
then he was born and the rest, as they say, is history. 🙂 heard from R’ Dovid Heber in BaltimoreNovember 17, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am in reply to: I havent eaten OU-D in years and I have a Teiva for it. #828123
additionally, in a matter of one deciding to become machmir on not eating chalav stam, why does age matter? gumball clearly has a choice just as the OP and clearly craves it just like to OP and is deciding not to eat it. why is that in anyway different than an adult who didn’t grow up with this chumrah/halacha?November 17, 2011 6:08 am at 6:08 am in reply to: I havent eaten OU-D in years and I have a Teiva for it. #828121
though it wasn’t addressed to me (and i’m a married-with-kids-adult) the reply to Gumball stung when i read it! this topic has been discussed before and regardless whether anyone thinks it appropriate or whatever, children/teens are allowed by coffeeroom rules to post.
apologies in advance if i read into it to much and you didn’t intend to be harsh.
ice-scream uscream, etc: interesting how you had gefen’s very valid accusations shut down, but at the same time open a thread naming another user as ‘troll’ and have already accused that user of being both gefen and midwesterner.
lol bpt! “one to work and one to clean”
may i add that there’ll double the “income” as well — two father-in_laws to support!
they can even use the thought of less support to sell the idea to the prospective father-in-laws…
“is the fact that you can’t afford full support holding your daughter back? sign up for the new game changing ‘2-for-1’ shidduch initiative and cut your support costs in half!!!”
walmart has a huge selection and good prices. try the website if you don’t live near a store.