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Thanks for those who provided useful info (which sites did you glean this from?)
UJM – you clearly need help, although from someone far more qualified than I
Unfortunately, I decided to give my wife and older kids a heads-up of my plan.
They couldn’t have been more shocked than if I had told them I was converting to Islam.
My wife was furious, raging furious, that I should have such a crazy idea.
She even told me “if you dont listen to the kids’ DT, I wont come to the Seder”.
Hmmm…sounds like a win-win
streekgeek said: “My oldest is two and half. No chiyuv yet of vehigadita levincha as far as I know”
Sorry mate but the Halacha is that even if you would be alone the chiyuv applies…..
There is something decidedly wrong here if
(a) the shver NEEDS to see a beautiful watch back on his wrist, so much so that people are raising money for it
(b) the chussen is more concerned about his inlaws’ reaction than his own injuries.
I think a more appropriate campaign would be to raise money for pre-marriage counselling.
“if you do something and you make him feel good, you did a chesed.”
– Really? Any Mekor for that? If I turn on the light on Shabbos for an elderly Jew, and make him feel good, have I done a chesed?
Allow me to clarify what I meant by “It doesn’t actually make any sense to sing it with Vechol Maaminim starting the verse!”
The Paytan used a double Alef Beis acrostic to pair together for each Middoh of Hashem a definition of that Middoh, and an elaboration of it. For example:
Habochein ubodeik ginzei nistoros
Vechol maaminim shehu bochein kloyos volev
Hashem is the One who inspects hidden secrets
and we all believe that he is the one who inspects our hearts
There is an obvious connection between the 2 verses.
The way it is commonly sung, this connection between the 2 verses is lost. We are left with two disparate comments that have little to do with each other. Using the above example:
Vechol maaminim shehu bochein kloyos volev
Hagoel Mimoves upodeh mishachas
and we all believe that he is the one who inspects our hearts
The one who Redeems from death and saves from destruction
There is no connection between these 2 phrases.
Just occurred to me that the use of the letter Vov (“And”) in “Vechol” further indicates it was meant to follow, rather than start, a verse.
Why is it that in a country the size of America the best 2 candidates you can produce are these 2 Mushchosim?
Here in the UK a candidacy like Trump’s would never have got off the ground, and Hilary would have been forced to step down over the emails.
to TheRealDonaldTrump (I seriously hope you’re not, became Ayn Odom Maysim Atzmo Rosho):
Firstly, doing something just because “that’s the way we do it”, isn’t really what I’m looking for.
Second, the other piyutim basically make sense however you read them./ But Vechol Maaminim was clearly designed by the Paytan to pair up 2 of the same Middos in each verse. The way we sing it, we lose this meaning.
Look – I’m not the first person to think of this – all the old Machzorim print it with Vechol Maaminim ending the phrase.
If that’s the case then it’s certainly sad that (for whatever reason) the entire world is singing it NOT in the manner the Paytan clearly had in mind.
It doesn’t actually make any sense to sing it with Vechol Maaminim starting the verse!
Mashiach Agent wrote:
“the music made by jewish singers todays is PURE GOYISH music with just the words changed around to hebrew. It is affecting the neshamos of all yidden listening to it R”L”
R Matisyahu Solomon shlita disagrees with your second sentence above. In the book of his speeches written up by Rabbi Reinman, he expressly says that songs composed by Goyim do not adversely affect our neshamos as long as the lyrics are okay. If I had the book I could give you a direct quote.
R Matisyohu Solomon (in the Artscroll book written by R Reinman) holds that music can be acceptable to listen to regardless of the source of composition, as long as the words are not “bad”.
A song with no lyrics does not have bad words, therefore is okay.
R Chaim Shmuelevitz has several Shmuessen on ‘Shlaymus hamaaseh’ – how ulterior motives can damage an otherwise commendable Mitzvah. That might apply here.
I take along Kerem Hatzevi al Hamoadim (by Rav Z H Ferber) with me. A great Sefer with great Drush.
In my yeshiva days I used to peruse Yalkut Lekach Tov, but it was quite heavy Litvish Mussar and just made me feel depressed.
Given that Selichos prior to Chatzos presents a Halachic challenge:- How do Selichos on Yom Kippur nite prior to Chatzos handle this issue?
R Ovadia Yosef discusses this point. His and others’ opinion is that al pi Kaballah anytime in the night before chatzos is a bad time to say selichos (i.e not just not an Eis Rotzon, but the opposite) and one should not say 13 middos. One should only say Selichos in early morning. If this is not possible then the only other time is Minchatime.
In light of this, he asks how come we say Selichos on YK? He explains the whole of YK is itself an Eis Rotzon and therefore the above problem doesn’t exist.
Note that the Heter of R Moshe Feinstein to say Selichos at night before CHatzos was only given to a community who were scared to go out at night because the streets were dangerous. I wonder what RM would think of people who misuse this Heter because they are too lazy to get up early.
He was saying that the non-frum take their cues from us about what we treat as really important, and then they do only that.
This is your own Peshat/obfuscation. It is quite clear he did not mean this at all – for if he had, why bother to mention the different cities? Just say: If an observant Jew in Vilna does Averah x, a less observant Jew in Vilna (i.e. who can see the other fellow and ‘take their cue from him’) does Averah Y.
A mamin, I take it you don’t work in a nonjewish firm.
I do and there simply is no way to avoid calling coworkers by the first name. Anything else would be viewed as weird and offensive.
The difference between a chinese auction and Kupat hair is that the CA gives you a chance to win a prize whereas KH PROMISES/GUARANTEES a prize (i.e. yeshuah).
Another difference: KH TAKES ADVANTAGE of people who are vulnerable, who need Yeshuos. CA’s don’t take advantage of anyone.
One more: CA’s have fixed prices per draw. No-one is encouraged to pay up life fortunes to enter.
The real tragedy of the whole Kupat Hair campaigns is that the people running the campaign clearly feel that Mitzvas Tzedokah / the worthiness of their organisation, is not enough of a draw to make people donate to them, that they have to resort to these manipulative, shallow promises/’shticks’ instead.
AFAI concerned, they have a lot to answer for how they have globally twisted the performance of Tzedokah in our generation into as Shelo Lishmoh as possible.
Please can a Mod correct the title of this thread.
If Rabbi Brody is referring to the medical condition of Depression, his advice is not only wrong, it is irresponsible and dangerous.
If he is referring to the colloquial ‘depression’, i.e. feeling depressed/down, then he could be right.
One of the Israeli tzedokos (either Vaad Horabonim or Kupat Hair) offer to have people daven 40 days by the kosel.
they also claim to have had the support of Rav Elyashiv.
In the Artscroll biography Rav Elyashiv said he knows of no Mekor for ravening at the Kosel for a period of 40 days.
Make of that what you will.
I personally throw their dishonest, OTT, manipulative literature in the trash as soon as I get it.
Rav Matisyahu Solomon was very critical of the promises some of these institutions make, taking advantage of people desperate for Yeshuos.
Also you can research how many people were taken in by pseudo Mekubolim promising Yeshuos if they greased their palms with silver. Rav Kadouri and Baba Sali never took money for their Brochos.
Why the obsession?
1. Because arayos is an avera that lev hoodom chomeid oson, and requires extra concern.
2. Because it is hard to think of another avera that is as tempting that someone else can cause you to do. Personally I don’t care how they dress at home. Just don’t be machshil me in the street! The street is a reshus harobim and it is the biggest chutspah for someone to dress how they want and compel me as a religious jewellery to have to cope with the nisoyon they unnecessarily create.
3. They don’t have to be as untzniusdig as the goyim, to still be seductive and alluring, and… ossur. Anyway, since when did we set ourselves standards based on the goyim?
4. Why do you think only in extremes. Either a shikse or a sack of potatoes. …. There is plenty of room between that to look nice and still follow the torah!
IMO the entire thread is based on nothingness.
Why does the Op presume that there * has* to be a clash between SB and Tznius? As many others have said, it is not too hard to gently disapprove to ones wife.
If the Op feels that telling off ones wife for a breach of halacha inevitably becomes a SB issue, I wish him much luck if he discovers his wife texting on Shabbos or eating treif.
MCP also said:
We’re not talking about women in shorts and tank tops here. I would say just look the other way.
Yes, but our Shul holds itself to a higher standard than merely avoiding shorts and tank tops. It’s called Halacha. Sorry for being so Orthodox.
Not covering the knees at all or not covering the whole knee? Which holy men are looking so closely?
Your sarcasm is misplaced and unwelcome. Did it cross your mind that holy women have (also) noticed?
In any case – your response smacks of the ridiculous implication that the men shouldn’t have been looking and that it is therefore their fault for the issue. Basically, you give carte blanche to a woman to dress however she wants, reprimanding not her but the man who looks.
It’s not dissimilar to the nutcases who accuse rape victims of dressing provocatively and bringing it upon themselves. You, too, are confusing the ‘victim’ and the ‘transgressor’!
I once had a business meeting with a non-Jew (turns out he was a blonde Aryan). He took me to a German restaurant. He ordered bacon sausages, I ordered a black coffee in a paper cup.
Unfortunately the only seats available in the crowded room were at a little table, right by the large front window. To make matters worse an obviously non-Jewish woman (also blonde) sat down next to us.
I wondered what a passerby would make of me in my cuppel seated at a window-side table drinking coffee with an obviously non-Jewish couple eating their obviously non-Kosher sausages.
apushatayid, thanks – you’re one of the first to mention talking to the husbands. I agree wholeheartedly – that seems to be a good point.
MCP, the issue I was referring to was skirts not covering the knees while standing up. Are you aware of any Poskim (orthodox only please! no reform/reconstructionist) who are Mattir?
Of course talking/messing around during CH is worse. That is not in dispute. That still doesn’t make learning during CH correct.
Hashgacha pratis – I picked up a Sefer tonight in Shul at random – called Lehagid Baboker Chasdecha – among which he discusses this very Inyan, and like many of the above, concludes that it is Halachically problematic.
He also quotes a Godol who said that he only does it because he is hard of hearing and cannot hear the Shatz.
Sadly this Godol remains nameless, but IMO the MB would still have an issue with his behaviour because he is setting a bad example for the Olom. That was the whole point of the MB!
If davening there disturbs your davening or your thoughts, not much choice but to daven elsewhere.
Are you serious? It’s not a nightclub…it’s a shul. If anything, the transgressors should be the ones to move on.
But in any case, i do still harbour hope that there is a solution somewhere, rather than giving up as you are proposing.
1. As I wrote it is only a minority who dress this way, yet they do not look to the majority to copy their ‘good example’.(In fact your answer is so simplistic and unrealistic I wonder if you were being facetious.)
2. How does viewing them as ‘wierd’ help the bad image they create for the Shul, the Michsholos they create for the menfolk and the bad example they set for the (weaker) femalefolk?
3. I have no idea what your point is.
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread – but I wanted to share a few thoughts
1. It’s surely not the worst Averah in the world, so one should be very careful before publicly rebuking people for it.
2. It’s interesting to note that many of the people who do this are not exactly Oisek BeOrayso Todira. Suddenly during CH they get an intense urge to open a Sefer, yet the minute Davening finishes they’re out of the door. It would really seem to be Atzas Yetzer Hora.
3. Ironically, according to MB quoted by OP, the more rabbinical the person is the more problematic it is, as others will learn and copy.
4. Kaf Hachaim quotes a Sefer that this is an example of someone whose Torah does not produce Nachas ruach to Hashem.
SMy thoughts on this sensitive issue:
1. No one ever likes being told off for doing something wrong.
2. Enforcing keeping of Torah is not a Jewish approach, except with certain averos which the halacha dictates one should protest. E.g. Talking during chazoras hashatz.
3. Notwithstanding the above, women who dress nontzniusly are being selfish, by directly challenging the frumkeit of frum men. I refer to women who dress in a manner that is unanimously considered not tznius. E.g. Skirts above the knee.
4. Is it not unfair and wrong that they can get away with such selfish behavior in public?
I suggest all above take a look at what the Baal HaTurim says on this Possuk.
Zaka Israel is on the list at the end! What does that mean, if anything?
1. It’s not ‘fake life’ – it’s real people with real opinions, albeit all of them expressed anonymously [but that is the format of the YWN CR]. Frankly I find your attitude tremendously disappointing – ‘ it’s only online conversations so I can be as rude as I like’ – but having seen some of your comments on other threads, I’m not so surprised.
2. I only quoted Rashi – his words not mine.
Do you have an alternative understanding of them?
Toi, it’s very lucky you didn’t mention the name of your ‘great RY’ – would have been Loshon Hora/Chillul Hashem/Bizoyon Talmidei Chachomim to report that he advises people to lie?
wow, lashon hara on a whole tzibbur and their manhigim in one sentence. great job.
Read again what I wrote. I questioned only ‘some of the Chareidi politicians.’ I believe you owe me an apology.
Cheery On the Top:
Are the not chareidi “manhigim” so tolerant of the Chareidim?
No, but they don’t claim to be interested in what Rashi (or any Mefaresh/sefer, for that matter) has to say.
[NB. Why does defending the Charedi manhigim have to immediately involve attacking non-Charedi manhigim?]
HaKatan and Akuperma,
What do you make of the 1929 Chevron massacres?
Is it not compelling evidence that the Arab enmity towards the Jews in Israel is NOTHING to do with the State of Israel?
Maybe I’m slow, but I only just saw the Youtube videos of A Jewish Star 2013 last night, and… I was really upset.
The format is identical to non-Jewish shows (which shall remain nameless). The judges are clearly aware of this and do their best to mimic the attitudes of their counterparts on the non-Jewish shoes. This includes laughing at at least one of the singers (who had to wait 4 hours for the privilege) or offering sharp critiques of their pitch, tone etc (this is somewhat pathetic considering that none of the 3 judges are known for the musical quality of their voices.)
At first I cringed at how corny the show is, and how obvious it is to anyone who has watched the non-Jewish shoes how desperately they are trying to copy it. One contestant (from Manchester, UK) even *proudly* introduces himself as having had an audition for such a contest.
As the show progressed, my feelings of embarrassedment turned to sadness. Simon Cowell and co do not care if they crush someone’s self esteem. On the contrary, it makes better TV viewing and brings in more revenue. (It has been alleged that some contestants are chosen purely on this basis, the judges knowing how everyone will laugh at them). This tiny Jewish contest has a very limited audience, the revenue must be very small. Why do they need the shock value? What do they gain by humiliating fellow Jews?
Really upset about it, so much so that I have decided against buying the latest CD of one of the judges. Not because I want to hurt his pocket – I just don’t feel comfortable listening to him anymore.
I used to do prank calls…
when I was 10.
Then….I grew up (a bit), and realised that annoying other people is not a nice thing to do, even if it may seem like fun.
On the ball said:
The Rogachover was an unbelievable masmid who learnt Torah every waking moment (except when forbidden)
I heard that he learned on Tisha Be’av and during Aveilus too. He explained that he couldn’t help it, such was his Ahavas Hatorah.
Actually the reason I feel we should give away the Medina to others is simply to save lives. You are in this dream world it will be worse and there would be some sort of Holocaust. In truth once the hatred goes away -so will most (if not all) of the killing of Jews.
this is delusional nonsense. the Muslim fanatics are bent on worldwide jihad. They only want Palestine because the Jews are there. if the Jews would relocate to The Diaspora, as you propose, the jihadists would follow them there chas vesholom.
Your enthusiasm for bashing the medinah leads you to unreasonable points of view.
With the pogroms of the 1880’s, things changed. Many Gedolim advocated that Jews not leave because the oppresion and poverty made it easier to keep Jews frum.
is this true? this sounds like a truly dreadful thing to suggest. Can anyone confirm?
To the OP, DaasYochid, and WIY, let me ask you the following (assuming there is little/no difference between the disturbance caused by a phone going off and that of people chatting):
What is more disruptive in shul, the guy talking during Chazoras Hashatz, or the people who sshhh him?
Your comments above indicate you would take the side of the guy being shushed. However, the Mechaber rules ‘Vegoarin bo’ – such a person should indeed be told off, and forcefully too.
It would appear there is actally a Chiyuv to sshush someone whose phone goes off (albeit only during Chazoras Hashatz)!!April 16, 2013 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm in reply to: PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane #945899
As such this person is a Tzaddik for putting himself in such an embarrassing situation for the sake of Halocho. At the same time it is definitely not a Chilul HaShem, because following Halocho is never a Chilul, but rather a Kiddush, HaShem. If you feel uncomfortable with that, you are suffering from a Golus mentality and need to improve your hashkofos (and knowledge of Halocho).
Mesillas Yeshorim writes that one must not observe a Midas Chasidus if the Hamon Am will mock him. If there are shitos that mean the plastic big is unnecessary, it would appear that doing so is not really a Halacha but a Midas Chasidus, and would therefore be discouraged.
A Dayan in London wrote a very detailed comprehensive Teshuvah on the subject about 8-10 yrs ago, including all the points raised abvoe by various commenters, and concluded that the plastic bag would be a Chumrah but not required Al Pi Halacha. I believe the Teshuvah was printed in Techumin/ Kol Hatorah or some similar journal. If anyone wants I could look for a copy.
”The principle economic problem for hareidim in Israel is that there is law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service”
Do you seriously believe this?
I was sure that the principle problem was an institutionalised aversion to doing anything other than learning Torah – even if at the expense of others who are forced to support you when you come abroad collecting?
The stream of collectors in London is rapidly increasing to the point of often 7/8 every Shacharis, most of whom carry a certificate stating that they are collecting for ”debts” (not medical emergencies etc which economics are not to blame for).
Many people here question if this system is sustainable in the long run, apart from the fact that the UK recession means people are less able to support their Israeli brethren. Not to mention the many Aniyai Ircho.
Things have to change, regardless of the draft situation.
abra cadabra said:
”Lipman is Daati. (And anti-Chareidi.)”
I apologise for seeming pedantic but I must correct you here.
The word is Dati – as in the adjective for Dat/Das (=torah), not Daati which might mean ‘intelligent’ if it was a word at all, which I am not sure.
This simple error alone leads me to view your opinion with amusement.
Tzaddiq, your Rov still speaks on an Inyan, albeit for 25 mins. My Kashya still stands.
Gamanit – what, for an hour? Must be an expert in vacuum bags!
<b>You need to read the Gaon and Malbums explanation on what they did and all these Qs and more fall away.</b>
Thanks, will do
Sorry poppa I checked the Pesukim and effectively Achashverosh did cancel Homon’s decree:
Perek 8, Possuk 5: ‘And she said: ‘If it please the king, and if I have found favour in his sight….let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews that are in all the king’s provinces’
Possuk 8: (Achashverosh responded:) ‘And you write about the Jews as is good in your eyes’
Possuk 9: ‘Then were the king’s scribes called at that time, in the third month, which is the month Sivan, on the three and twentieth day thereof; and it was written according to all that Mordecai commanded concerning the Jews…’
Possuk 11: ‘…that the king had granted the Jews that were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, and to slay, and to cause to perish etc.’