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So then really NO ONE is disagreeing. FINALLY!
ICOT, I must have started my Purim drinking early — I am stumped today.
Al Abama comes to mind (but our Pres spells his name Obama)
TLC that is a poor analogy. No one said to eliminate drinking on Purim, only to LIMIT the excessive use of alcohol by people too young and immature to understand the impact their actions have on themselves and on others, who have a right to enjoy THEIR Purim night as well. That is not undermining halacha, but it interesting that you view simple menschlechkeit in that way.
Nobody REQUIRES anything, at least not yet. It is a good idea, however, to be tested for genetically passed illnesses, and Dor Yesharim is a great way to do so. HOWEVER, they do not test for everything, and sometimes genes that could be problematic are missed. I have a friend whose child has a baby with a non-life-threatening condition but one which will always cause the child a problem,, and there is a 25% chance of it being passed down to every child they will have. Totally unknown to them, the mother and the father each had a gene that causes a certain condition, but it would never have been tested for its presence, and is definitely not tested for by D”Y, though I think it should be, as they test for so many other things.
I don’t know if D”Y should be called every time a shidduch is proposed, but it should surely be checked up after the first date, if the couple wants to go to a second one. Not everyone is tested by D”Y, or needs to be, but I personally think it is a good idea.
A shadchan that was so negative towards baalei teshuvah should not have been the one consulted for help in such a shidduch. It is not a bad idea to look into shidduchim with girls who are likewise coming back to Torah and Mitzvos. I would call Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis and aske her if she knows of someone appropriate for you. She has made many such shidduchim. You don’t go to law school to become a doctor, and you don’t go to a shadchan with that type of snobby attitude towards B”T, to find an appropriate shidduch for a B”T.
Youdontknowme, made the same point as I. The internet is very private, and CAN be filtered voluntarily, but even if not it is still private. Getting drunk on Purim is RARELY private, and in any case, people who drink alone are at risk for becoming potential alcoholics, but I digress. I did not ignore the issue, Ben LEvi, I was responding to a specific point. You seem to feel one cannot have a good time without drinking to excess on Purim, and that is a canard. Believe it or not, one can feel trtemendous simcha without being snockered. And if you are worried about internet use, I suggest using a filter on yours. After all, you are posting here, so someone is using the internet at your house.
Anuran and Aries both have highlighted even more reasons for this problem. SO on the mark. Also, people who are so careful with each other’s feelings before the wedding, often take them for granted after.
TERRIFIC!
I am still working on the others.
9) What a bootblack gives you. SHOE SHINE
12) A fatalistic sense of the absurd. Irony ?
13) Word game in which a stick-figure is slowly completed when letters are guessed incorrectly. HANGMAN
Nathan, you too, are still very young. Your perceptions are grounded in youthful ideals, and you seem to be unable or maybe unwilling to see the other person’s point of view. Whether or not you agree with my opinion, there is an achrayus built into EVERY school that is housed on a residential block, to NOT set a negative precedent that may be picked up by others, who are even less concerned with the feelings of those residents on the block, especially if they do not normally belong there, but are there because rightly or wrongly they expect big doings at THE YESHIVAH.
yes, anuran, I also do that. Good tip.
“there will be singing dancig laughing”
All of which we can ALL do without getting drunk – and BETTER, because we aren’t falling over each other when we are not smashed. I do not need to debate this. Those who feel the need to justify their potentially egregious behavior in drinking to excess and possibly acting like animals in public places, will find an halachic basis for it. The rest of us will find an halachic basis for NOT causing a great chillul Hashem on Purim this year, as has happened in previous years. I sincerely pray that none of the drinkers has cause to regret his dedication to this one halacha, that can be interpreted in so many less dangerous ways than taht of blanket permission to get blotto.
Lakewood wife thank you so much for ther tip about Baker’s Choice fillings. I need a good apricot filling for my son the p’tchetch.
“Why don’t we worry about the marriage crisis. So many more young couples are divorcing these days. “
That is because the stars in the girls’ eyes about being n’shei chayil, quickly dim when they realize a) they don’t know the guys they married and b) Maybe the boys are not mature enough to get married at a young age, and c) maybe the girls they married might be a size 0-2, but maybe she has nothing else going for her, but he doesn’t really know that because he BARELY knows her, also.
Nathan, unless you know me personally, how do you conjecture where I live or near what Yeshivah? I do not believe I have ever said anything about where I live. Are there no Yeshivahs in towns other than Far Rockaway, or kids congregating on streets other than Central Avenue? In any case, at the Yeshivah next door to my house, it always HAS been as bad as that. Boys used to come into my backyard at 1-2 AM, light fireworks (almost caused a fire by me once, and made me fearful that there was something smoldering, which went into my roof), woke my sleeping baby who was sick and finally had gone to sleep when they carried on outside even after my husband went out several times to shoo them away and tell them to be quiet, and urinated and threw up all over the law. (One was witnessed by a neighbor who came out and said he calls the cops, and the vomit I found in the morning, along with crazy string, beer bottles, and other assorted trash.
PLEASE do not take me for a fool. Let’s asume I am in Far Rockaway and the Yeshivah has not had a mesiba for a few years. Nevertheless, by your own admission boys from out of the area congregated there, doing these things, because they knew the Yeshivah USED to have a party like that, or because they are collecting (LATE AT NIGHT?????? I don’t think so). I do not believe the R”Y was there, because I know of the R”Y from the Yeshivah you mentioned and he would not condone such behavior in or out of his Yeshivah at ANY time. I know many people from your neighborhood, and I have asked them about the so-called “bouncer” and they say this was not done until VERY recent years, because of the hundreds of complaints the R”Y received about such behavior on and near his school’s premises, possibly originating from outsiders. Were he actually present there for the duration of the entire mesiba, he would surely have recognized if strangers were invading his school and acting out. It should not take repeated complaints for several years to get the problem rectified, there or any other place.
YFR802, you are a kid, so please do not disrespect an adult who tells you what was observed by a Yeshivah in her neighborhood, whether it is yours or somewhere else, and there are a LOT of neighborhoods with Yeshivos, not only in Far Rockaway. I do NOT have to be dan l’chaf z’chus when I see such chillul being committed, and if it is committed
nearby your Yeshivah, whether or not is it committed by that yeshivah’s students, THAT yeshivah will be the one that gets the flak, especially if they already know from experience that this is likely to happen on or near their premises.
I give you credit for even giving the sample. I would have asked Prince Charming to take me home immediately, thanked his crazy mother for her eye-opening hospitality, and immediately called the shadchan upon arriving home, to warn him or her about this shviger from you know where. And btw, where was “MR. Shviger” in all this – did he agree with his wife’s actions? If not and he still let her do it, it does not ever bode well for this young man’s future wife, if any can be found to write “right.”
It is not such a small group. Let’s tell it like it is. If it were not such a problem, people like Rabbi Shmuel Kamenentzky and Rabbi Twersky would not be telling us it is assur. Obviously it is a far greater epidemic than has been previously thought to be so.
To add to that caveat, kids especially should be aware that ANYTHING that they send into cyberspace is there FOREVER, and can show up on any of a number of sites that will potentially embarrass them. Never write or upload anything that you would not want seen by strangers, much less family and friends.
Ben Levi, even were it true that a greater churban is caused by the internet than by drinking (and I do not accept that as a given), what someone does in the privacy of his home on the internet is known only to him and damages him privately. What some foolish teenager or even more foolish OLDER guy does in PUBLIC while intoxicated is known to ALL. NEITHER of these is good for those people, but the danger of causing physical damage to himself and to OTHER innocent victims is far greater when one is drunk, than when one is using the internet (which CAN be used for the good, as well, as opposed to drunkenness, which bodes no good for anyone).
Nathan, you are officially ready for Purim. You know ABSOLUTELY nothing about me or the kind of people with whom I am close friends, but you made a really WAY off the mark judgment. So be it. And a drunken bum is a drunken bum no matter what school he attends. I live near a “black hat” Yeshivah and have seen enough to turn any R”Y’s stomach. The problem is that the R”Y does NOT remain at the Yeshivah when the bochurim are carrying on like vildeh chayos, and does not see them puking on people’s lawns or hear them honking their horns at 3 AM. Sorry, but you could not be more wrong, but that is your prerogative. Lots of people make mistakes this time of year, and call those mistakes frumkeit, when all it really is is a lack of seichel and menschlechkeit. Whatever you do, please designate another (sober) driver for yourself when you fulfill the mitzvah of ADL”Y and have to get home. And make sure you are respectful of people who did not stay out as late as you do and might have babies trying to sleep.
ben Levi, there are rabbonim who hold that if ten women daven together,t hey may form a minyan, and some hold they may even layn from a Sefer Torah. I do not hold by that, but there are halachic opinions that it is not assur. Note I do not say it should be done, only that there are opinions it is not assur. And while you are correct that Pesach is xecher l’Yetzias Mitzrayim, you missed the point. The Torah defines what our yomim tovim are b’feirush. Chanukah and Purim are the two exceptions, but Chanukah commemorates a neis that happened in E”Y, and Purim commemorates one that took place OUTSIDE of E”Y. Hence no Hallel is said on Purim. It is said on the shloshes regalim, because they are designated IN THE TORAH. It is said on Chanukah because it took place in E”Y. Yes Yom Kippur is Yom K’Purim, but that is an esoteric idea, meaning that the kedusha of both days is equivalent (purim because kadosh because EVEN THOUGH we are eating and drinking a bit more than normal, we STILL MAINTAIN derech eretz. Anyone can be a tzaddik when he is fasting and davening all day. But to continue to be a tzaddik even when imbibing alcohol and feasting, THAT is tzidkus.
Nathan: You clearly have already been dipping into the liquor in anticipation of Purim.
Neither my husband nor I has ever had a bad experience, as you call it, with alcohol. We are not drinkers, except for kiddush on Shabbos, and on Pesach for the arba kosos. occasionally I will have a pina colada at a simcha, if it’s served, but my husband does not indulge, as he is the designated driver. I have personally never been drunk, but I have had a buzz on once or twice, from some champagne. The fact that you feel free and easy to comment negatively in a personal way about someone’s drinking or non-drinking habits only serves to show you to be more judgmental than you seem to believe me to be. And a drunken bum IS a disgrace to Torah, there is no heter whatsoever anywhere for any jewish child to ever cause a chillul Hashem by drunken, obnoxious behavior. The fact that “modern” orthodox kids on Central Avenue may act wild and cause a ruckus on Friday afternoon, in no way excuses the awful, rowdy behavior of kids who ought to know better (by that faulty logic), because they come from more yeshivish backgrounds. If anything, they are worse, because they purport to be b’nei Torah, so their behavior is under even greater scrutiny by Jew and non-Jew alike.
Because they have poor manners, AZ. If someone tried hard to make a shidduch and it got to 4 dates and broke up, it would be good middos to writer a thank you for their help (unless it is a close personal friend or family member, and then a call is really sufficient).
That may be true for the daughter, but it is the MOTHER who is understandably upset about it. No parent would want to see her child living like that – I would not believe anyone who said otherwise. Yes, it is a noble and wonderful maileh that the daughter or the woman in the 25 shekel story are not materialistic, and are happy despite not having much. That does not however, preclude the MOM from feeling pained at that. I don’t even know either woman, and I feel her pain.
I thought the Inauguration was on January 21st.
“I think we would all agree that parents should write a nice sincere card to express their appreciation to a shadchan once their child goes out on a couple of dates- wouldn’t you say? Why isn’t that “shmearing”.”
You really have to ask? NO, writing a nice note is NOT shmearing. It is good manners. Shmearing, when it does not apply to bagels (though I guess in this case I suppose it COULD refer to “tuna bagels”) specifically means giving a bisseleh gelt to someone as a bribe. And you know it.
I just read this in a Jewish publication. It is quite eye-opening:
“Rosh Yeshiva slams heavy Purim drinking
In News on February 17, 2010 at 6:17 pm
By Sammy Steiner
Issue of February 19, 2010/ 6 Adar 5770
Lazer Rosman, a founding member of Hatzalah in Borough Park, spoke out against making light of excessive drinking; something people do, he said, because they do not see the repercussions.
One local mental health authority was less enthused about drinking to excess.
Four years ago, Salamon said, he visited a 17 year-old child who was in the hospital after suffering a stroke triggered by alcohol abuse.
Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, executive director of Project Y.E.S. and the organizer of the conference call, told the Jewish Star that drinking on Purim could have its own set of unintended consequences.
The custodian was surprised.
?
Feivel, human nature is human nature, and from the very first case in history of someone wanting what one cannot have, until today, people’s nature remains unchanged. At least in this way, they are able to have a kosher outlet for that taivah. I don’t think it is an indictment, as much as an observation. We have to understand that while certain things are assur to us, it is NOT assur to find kosher ways to enjoy those things, without compromising our avodas Hashem. He put us in this world to enjoy it, not to suffer as ascetics, and be deprived of halachically legitimate sources of enjoyment.
LOL, never been to England. I am still waiting for the definitive FRENCH bread recipe.
(Hate the French, though)
Yep, Purim is almost here, again.
Anuran – HUH????????????????
What does Romeo and Juliet have to do with this discussion? And Mods, what’s up with this?
Lavdavka, while I do get the spirit of what you are saying, your concern is misplaced IMO. As far as all types of restaurant foods (Chinese, Mexican, etc) being available, that is contributing enormously to frum Jews not feeling like they are missing out of things that the non-Jews are raving about. I was thrilled when I got to eat my first meal in a kosher Chinese restaurant. I LIKE having a kosher version of Burger King. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It is EXCESS that is the problem, not the fact of something’s existence. If Moshiach isn’t here yet,. I GUARANTEE you it is not because of restaurants. L’havdil, those restaurants are helping our youth remain kosher, so they don’t seek out treif places to get a good egg roll.
WOW, that was SUPER! Thanks Yanky. I am telling that over on Purim B”EH.
I have never in my life eaten such amazing bread as the lachmaniyot and challah in E”Y.
It is quite clear that those who think that Purim is a license to get smashed will find every excuse to do so and call it a mitzvah. Those who have a little more seichel, will understand that this is total rationalization and call a spade a spade.
I meant to add that parents have to also recognize when they can and when they cannot “interfere.” They also have to be very strongly aware that their kids want to and need to make their own way in life, even when it is difficult, just as they learned to take their first steps as infants and fell down a lot. It hurts to watch the process, but sometimes that is all we can do. I really can see both sides of this not so easy issue, and upon reflection, I do believe that if the daughter is genuinely happy, then perhaps it IS her business. The mom should try to dialogue with her, as I said previously, to see if this is truly the case, and if so, just be supportive emotionally and financially, to some extent, if at all possible, in an emergency.
No wonder the bagels came out so well. The flour in E”Y is the best!!!!!!!!
“oomis1105: Here’s a little secret. take a typical normal regular girl. By the time she dates 5 boys 3 times each she will already be married.”
AZ, without going into stories here, I do not agree with your secret. Too many girls disprove that.
Mod 80 (whose opinions I DO respect) – unless I mistake your reply, you seem to be implying that unless the couple in E”Y is not complaining, that there is no problem. What difference does it make if they are unhappy or not? Would you ask the same thing if the couple were off the derech, or living in the street, and the mom was heartbroken about it? Sometimes people in a difficult and stressful matzav cannot see that matzav as being terrible – until it is too late to change the ramifications of it (i.e., a nervous or physical breakdown, a broken marriage, etc.)
A woman with kinehora 8 children who works two jobs to make ends meet, and is living in a small apartment, presumably with a husband who is unemployed (though to be fair it was NOT stated as such by the OP), has a very real problem. If she does not see this as problematic, then either she is really blind to her own situation, or has been brainwashed into thinking that she is only worthy if she accepts this as her lot in life.
Chani, you have to try very hard to separate yourself from the stress this is causing you. You cannot be of help to your daughter either in E”Y or here, if you develop high blood pressure, etc. from your stress about her stress. If you have the financial resources and are able to do so, perhaps you could help them out financially, or even go there for a visit to help her with the kids and household stuff. If not, try and open up a dialogue with her and see what SHE feels she needs, and try to see what solutions you can elicit from HER (i.e. to have it come from HER that her husband needs a job, or a second job).
Nobody ever said life would be easy. It’s just so hard to sit back and watch our kids when we presume they are suffering.
I am SO delighted. it gives me great pleasure when a suggestion of mine is helpful to someone, and especially when it is someone I don’t even know personally. Now if we could all just figure out a way to get some of those bagels DELIVERED….
What about Nutella? Anyone ever try that? For my money, Purim ain’t Purim unless the hamantashen filling is prune lekvar to which I have added finely chopped walnuts, lemon juice, and allspice. Otherwise, it is just a triangular cookie.
AZ, the attention you are talking about can also be negative, if that child keeps ONLY getting to the three or four dates each time, but it never follows through. No payment is due for less than final results. But I am with Tzippi, a nice little token of appreciation might be in order, depending on the circumstances, and a thank you note, surely is in all cases.
The laws regarding the age for drinking wine apply to all, EXCEPT for the single kos yayin that is required for religious observance. Our government recognizes that sacramental wine is necessary for Shabbos and yom tov, and no one tells parents not to give them wine for kiddush, though one may be yotzai on grape juice. My parents always watered down the wine my father O”H served to the children, until we were of an age to tolerate the undiluted wine. He always mixed our wine half and half with grape juice on Pesach (because otherwise, we fell asleep before we got to Shulchan Orech). Ben Levi’s point is incorrect. ALL other wine drinking except for Shabbos and yom tov kiddush, is assur under age 21. But no frum Jew will be arrested for serving wine at kiddush for those who are underage. And MORE IMPORTANT — those underage people who are drinking wine at Shabbos or Yom Tov Kiddush, ARE NOT GETTING BEHIND THE WHEELS OF A CAR until that alcohol has already left their systems. And that makes all the difference in the world.
It would seem that more people than only myself recommended Advil (gastric upset notwithstanding).Tylenol is like chiclets to a hangover.
Tzippi, you know what I mean. As hardworking as someone may be, if they don’t close the deal, unfortunately they do not reap the rewards. My appreciation might be in the form of recommending that realtor to OTHERS who would be more successful in buying their dream home through this person. But if I did not buy a house through him or her, I am not paying a token commisssion just because of the effort involved. I say thank you, and mean it sincerely when someone goes to bat for me. It does not mean I owe them money. In some fields that would be a different story. You pay the doctor whether or not he is successful at treating your condition. But some lawyers only get paid if they win the case. So it is with shadchanim, as far as I am concerned, unless they prearrange a different deal beforehand.
Ben Levi, your entire post is too exhausting to respond to. Clearly You are missing the point of this subject. Whether in front of Jews or non-Jews, drunken bums cause a chillul Hashem if they are JEWISH drunken bums. The feminist remark is foolish, because frum women do not feel slighted. We have our role to perform and men have theirs. Both roles are unique and necessary in an equal way, though the number of mitzvos each is required to fulfill may not be equal. It is to women’s credit that we are on a madreiga that does not need so much intervention (the doing of additional mitzvos) in order for us to attain the high level that Hashem wants us to reach.
The point I was making is that before women decide they want to do the mitzvos that MEN have to do (and they do not), let them be certain they are AT LEAST properly fulfilling the ones that they ARE responsible for themselves. And I would tell that to a modern Orthodox feminist, as well, though the term seems a bit contradictory, as a truly frum woman, modern, or not, understands what I have already stated. And if that woman is doing the mitzvos incumbent upon herself, and she wants to wear tefillin every day, as long as it is not an issur, let her do it (BUT THEN SHE HAD BETTER BE DOING IT EVERY DAY, Sunday through Friday, and not just when it is convenient, or she is a hypocrite. And if she wants to be part of a minyan, let her be part of a women’s minyan every single day, as long as it is halachically acceptable. Because if her desire is to daven in a minyan, and not merely to show the guys that she is one of them, which she is not, then she should seek out ways to do so within Torah guidelines. I would be surprised if even one reform Jewish woman who squawks about being a rabbi or davening in a men’s minyan, goes to the mikvah (k’halacha, if at all).
There is an inyan that things that happen in E”Y have more chashivus than those outside. We do not say Hallel on Purim, the events of which which took place in Persia, but we do say a full Hallel every day of Chanukah which happened in E”Y. Except for the “zecher amalek” issue and the remez of hester panim, there is no further mention of it until we read the Megillah, and HASHEM’s name does not even appear in it anywhere.
PLEASE do not try to convince me that ANYONE gets more schar mitzvah for getting drunk than for doing gemilus chassadim. Considering the trouble that so many of our youth get into in being mekayeim the mitzvah, I doubt they got too much sachar. There is no mitzvah that includes the commission of an aveira.
I guess we just need to agree to disagree.
I am still not certain what happened – was Martin Grossman executed, nebbich? Chaval al hakol. This is a very tragic circumstance ad if he was executed today, then two lives were wasted. I grieve for his victim, too. She did not deserve what happened to her. This is a no-win situation, that is for certain.
anuran, that is EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make. Funny how dedicated these kids are to this particular “mitzvah.”
Home it is! And inviting the usual suspects…
If everything happened exactly as stated, it is hard to not want retribution for such a heinous act of violence. It is only because Martin Grossman is a Jew, that I wanted his sentence commuted to life imprisonment with no parole. If it were anyone else, I would want justice to be served with a death penalty. We are hypocrites if we do not acknowledge this, and if it were some other non-Jewish drug addict, I would not care that he was a teenager, and I would not care if he were a model prisoner. If it was my family member that he killed, lo aleinu, I would want to see the final justice done. Death by lethal injection is a far more merciful one than that which Officer Parks experienced. It’s really true that everything comes down to whose ox is being gored. Has anyone heard any news of what happened? Usually when an execution is set for a given date, it happens right at midnight of that date.