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Different judaica types as in Seforim stores?
ENS: There’s no data whatever demonstrating that Chareidim use welfare any more proportionally than African Americans who go to public schools. Therefore your insinuation that the Supreme Court would treat these Jews worse than their decision for the Amish, or that the Amish case, which is now the law of the land, is for some reason inapplicable to these Jews, is laughable.
“So they aren’t compliannt. whats the problem. I have no problem with lack of compliance ”
If you have no objection to Yeshivas not being in compliance with the public school equivalency law, then just as you have no objection to Yeshiva Darchei Torah not teaching sex education, to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English up to par.
Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding? I’m not convinced the failing isn’t your own rather than those you blame. (Said only with the greatest brotherly love… really.)
Did you bother to read what you quoted or did you simply fail to understand the import of the words you copy and pasted? From your quotations: “allows… to choose from various pathways… through one of the following pathways…”
Regents is just one of multiple options to prove it. They can choose an option without Regents. Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam. Not in other subjects that are required. There are subjects that do not have a Regents exam.
Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. These new regs do that for the first time.
Giving the Regents exams will now demonstrate substantially equivalent instruction to students in the subject of the Regents. But not all subjects have a Regents exam. The law, as it has been for the last 100 plus years, requires substantially equivalent instruction to students that is given in the local public school system. That remains unchanged. They still require equivalent instruction in substantially all public school subjects. If you deny this fact, then any school can say we choose not to teach math. If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school. If you can say they can skip sex education even though it’s taught in public school, they’ll be able to then say in that case we can skip math too, even though it is taught in public schools.
ubiq, do you make up bubbe maaisas as you go along and call them the facts, to fit and attempt to support and shore up your mistaken notions and incorrect assertions? Your 8:12am post (#2125303) takes the cake as your most inventive. (For this thread; over the years in other threads you’ve gone even further.)
1. Public school equivalency is NOT defined by offering the Regents. Nothing in the equivalency law says a blasted thing about the Regents or offering any State standardized testing for that matter.
2. What the Board of Regents voted on earlier this week are REGULATIONS, *NOT*’ the LAW. FYI — laws are only enacted by the legislature, no one else in NYS.
3. The NYS law mandates private schools must teach equivalent to what the public schools teach. As simple as that. The law makes NO DISTINCTION between math, arts, English, gym, science or sex education.
4. Even those new regulations voted on this week are NOT effective yet. It has a future effective date. As of today nothing changed regarding the public school equivalency law than what has been on the NYS law books for over the last 100 plus years.
5. The new regulations, even when they become effective, do not change the law. It merely instructs the multiple local Education Departments in the various municipalities across the State on how to enforce the law.
6. The regulations stipulate that ONE OF the methods a school can demonstrate public school equivalency is by administrating the Regents exams to their students; and IF sufficient numbers pass the Regents that will demonstrate the school is compliant for public school equivalency in those subjects that sufficient students passed the exam.
7. The new regulations also give alternative options for private schools to demonstrate public school equivalency compliance without giving the Regents. No private school is required to give their students the Regents or any other standardized tests. This has been the case until now and will remain so even with the new regulations.
To repeat and reiterate, NYS Education Law Section 3204(2) requires private schools provide full public school equivalency. There is NO DISTINCTION under the law between math, English, science, music, arts or sex education. Satmar’s deficiency in English is the same non-compliance as is Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim’s deficiency in teaching sex education that’s offered in public school. Rachmitsrivka’s deficiency in teaching science is just as bad under the law as Yeshiva Darchei Torah’s deficiency in teaching arts and music.
No Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in the entire State of New York is compliant (possibly excluding Modern Orthodox schools like Ramaz and Yeshiva of Flatbush), as their are much objectionable material from the public school, both in content and time, that it is impossible for a Torah school to be in compliance with the public school equivalency law.
P.S. My advance apologies for my strong words; you’ve done this too many times to point them out again with a poker face and neutral voice. You’re still my brother and I say all this with brotherly love.
YU is not a Jewish institution. It is anti-Jewish.
mdd1 is absolutely correct in everything he’s explained vis-a-vis Ukraine and Russia.
ubiq wrote: “The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.”Let’s correct ubiq, as what ubiq should be writing is thus:
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math, English, gym, music, arts and sex education. Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidim Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov’s do not. Therefore Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov are violating the law. You cant blame Chareidi parents for wanting their school to educate their children in sex education and all the other PUBLIC SCHOOL EQUIVALENCY as required by New York law.
Arguing that Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov have the right to not educate the children with public school equivalency as required by the law, including sex education, gym, music and arts is arguing that they don’t have to follow the law.
FTFY
mdd, do you view Ukrainians as ethnic Russians or do you consider Ukrainians to be distinct from Russians?
Avira answered exactly (and everything) that the he OP asked.
mdd, how could you ever consider the city of Lemberg (with its German name and partial Jewish, German and Polish population that was originally under the Austrian Empire, that the Soviets changed its name to Lviv after stealing it from Poland) to be Russian in any way, shape or form?
ubiq’s grossly misinformed view of how Satmar views non-Satmar Shomrei Torah uMitzvos Yidden is a parody of how some five and six year old children might think.
New York might soon find itself with 100,000 “truants” whose parents refuse to budge one inch. Let’s set how successful the District Attorney’s in New York will be in prosecuting the parents of these 100,000 truants.
ubiq: You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it. You simply assert a family can’t switch affiliations from Satmar to Bobov or Stolin etc without losing their community and uprooting their children, without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it.
As far as point “b”, if Satmar started providing a basic education at the elementary school level for math and reading, you think that would shut up most of the critics? Satmar NEVER provided a “public school equivalency” education, as the law demands, however many decades you go back. Doing so is absolutely against the essence of Satmar.
mdd, are you suggesting that we need to thank Stalin?
ubiq:
“to get a kid a basic education required by law, they should have to change theirentire lifestyle, lose their community, home friends, uproot their children.”
Three points, each independent but all important —
a. Satmar parents (while remaining Satmar) sending their boys to Vien, Chasan Sofer, Stolin or another Chasidish mosod that gives the Regents and/or otherwise has a notably more advanced secular studies program than Satmar, is not even close to a major change in lifestyle — and there’s surely no loss of community or friends (anymore than any child changing from one school to another). This IS a practical option.
b. Even if the above weren’t an option (or if you assert that it isn’t a viable difference), the fact of the matter is that being a part of the Satmar community by definition means forgoing any serious secular education. This is part and parcel of being Satmar. Just like you can’t be Satmar and still go to the movie theater to watch (even) “G” rated cartoon/animated Hollywood movies designed for children — because that’s a contradiction to being Satmar; you also cannot send your children to an Orthodox High School that is designed to get the students at an educational level to have a chance to get accepted into Harvard or other universities (whether or not they pursue that option.)
c. If the family changed to another Chasidus, say Bobov, Stolin, Vien or whatever, such a change does NOT entail “changing their entire lifestyle, losing their community, home friends, and uprooting their children.” It, too, is a viable option.
The US Supreme Court has today, on technical/procedural grounds, reversed the temporary injunction blocking the New York court order from becoming effective. As a result, YU is effective immediately now obligated under court order to implement the court injunction requiring the university “to immediately grant” the RIETS Homosexual Club “full and equal accommodations”.
Beginning tomorrow will YU/RIETS fulfill its legal obligation per the New York court injunction supporting the RIETS Homosexual Club and thereby violate the Torah *OR* tomorrow will YU not violate the Torah but rather violate New York law and a court order by refusing the implement the injunction?
What’s your choice YU — Torah or America?
ubiq, if a Satmar Chosid is unhappy with the Satmar school choices he can send his children to a non-Satmar school. If that means changing Chasiduses (and I’m not sure that is even necessary) to another, say to Vien, Bobov, Stolin, Ger, or any of dozens of other large or small Chasiduses (or try Oberlander or Yeshivish for that matter), that too is an option.
akuperma, Sweden is about to get a new government. It remains to be seen whether their NATO application will remain unchanged.
Whatever is on sale.
Yseribus: The rich Chasidim did NOT go to college. Any exception is rare.
“A secular education is necessary in this American golus”
It is no more necessary than a Polish and Russian education was necessary for Yidden in Poland or Russia. We did without learning Polish history or Russian history and we did without science.
“I guarantee that if a hispanic “latinx” community wanted to keep their kids speaking spanish, and have a spanish speaking school, they would not be treated this way. They would be appreciated as diverse, etc.. no matter what the results of their system would be.
But if Jews speak yiddish and hebrew, and run businesses, and don’t father children and run away….that’s not ok.”
NYC public school tech math, science and a host of other subjects in Spanish for members of the Hispanic community.
Only the Big Bad Jews are not allowed to teach all secular subjects in a non-English language — such as in Yiddish.
“For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, what objective studies or reports can you present to support your position?”
2,000+ years of survival in exile despite severe persecution.
Where is the Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire and countless other empires?
Reb Eliezer, is there anything available from a man?
southerner: Can a nice country boy or hillbilly bochor who is a mentsch relatively easily find a nice shidduch in one of those out of town communities that you mentioned?
ubiq: “However for those few who want to be frei are stuck.”
That’s absolutely the way it should be. And must remain.
AAQ: Which Acharonim allowed you to accept or use the non-Jewish cash sent to you by Uncle Sam during the Covid pandemic?
It’s important to add that (by Ashkenazim) if the husband wants to divorce but the wife wants to continue the marriage, barring specific extenuating circumstances where he might be entitled to force her (in Beis Din) to accept a Get, the general rule established by Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is that she’s within her rights to veto his request to divorce and she can legitimately force him to remain married to her.
Dr. Pepper,
The Halacha regarding Heter Meah Rabbonim says it needs at least one rabbi from three countries. Most opinions say three different US States suffices for this purpose. If you want to be more careful you can get one rabbi from each Canada and Israel in addition to 98 Kollel yungerleit in Lakewood.
Yes, air travel in the past made it more difficult to procure. I don’t suppose anyone will insist sending a horse and buggy to Toronto (or to New York, if another State suffices) for the out of state/country signatures. Many things became “easier” in Yiddishkeit due to advanced technologies.
A HMR is not limited to the type of cases (and related thereof) that you mentioned. It is far more expansive to include any case where the husband has a reasonable reason to desire divorce whereas the wife is unreasonable in refusing.
As far as acceptable, the only person that will need to find the issued HMR acceptable is the one rabbi that will officiate for the husband’s future marriage. Anyone else’s opinion has no bearing. (Halachicly you don’t even need a rabbi to perform a marriage.)
The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that parents have the right to stop all education after eighth grade.
Any 100 kollel yungerleit with smicha can sign a Heter Meah Rabbonim. It shouldn’t be hard to put it together, if one wants to.
Ashkenazic husband’s cannot give a Get against the wife’s will since Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom prohibits them from doing so. Any non -Ashkenazic husband can give his wife a Get against her will. Non-Ashkenazim can also be married to multiple wives.
OP/Besalel:
1. You must completely separate the discussion of education pertaining to Limudei Kodesh from secular studies. Some/many parents, may desire — fully within their rights — to forgoe any secular education and focus entirely on Limudei Kodesh and on being a Ben Torah, Yid and mentsch with stellar middos.
This is not only their natural right, but it is a highly commendable choice. Even if you disagree with the parents.
2. To answer your OP, Torah education has not declined with time over the last 75 years. Au contraire. It has markedly improved.
3. Those spending 50% of their income on their children’s education are clearly and absolutely focusing on their second education. To the detriment of their Torah education, I might add, as the secular is then occupying a significant amount of the child’s limited time per day.
No one needs to spend remotely nearly 50% of their income of their children’s Torah education.
4. Not every of what you call “kosher fields” is as kosher as you may think. Some are less kosher than others, even if not outright forbidden. There is very good reason to educate one’s children to the exclusion of gaining a taste or ability to choose a less kosher line of work environment over a more kosher/Jewish field.
Amil, anyone who would even consider inviting Jackson could not be properly described as frum.
The Queen is simply referred to as “Queen Camilla”. Although her full legal title is Camilla, Queen consort of the United Kingdom, she’s formally referred to as Queen Camilla, much as Elizabeth II’s mother, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, was simply known as Queen Elizabeth when her husband King George was alive.
Ebonics?
If Paskesz disconnected the confection, it is a safe bet that it wasn’t commercially worthwhile maintaining.
How is Her Majesty, Queen Camilla doing, after a few days on the throne?
Mr. Paskesz doesn’t live in an Ivory Tower. You can easily find his contact and give him a quick friendly call.
Reb Eliezer, Rav Moshe is very against making a Bas Mitzvah party. He has three teshuvos in the Igros Moshe against it. He calls it a Reform innovation.
Past “upgrades” of the Coffee Room (bbPress) have gone very badly and ruined/mangled/destroyed many (perhaps most) old threads.
ymr: You’re building in too many assumptions. A goy might risk it even if it wasn’t “worth the risk” on an actuary table.
CS: Have you ever met a troll that you agreed with his post? Or do you consider anyone you disagree with to be a troll?
chiefshmerel: Avoda Zora is worse that eating chazir.
If someone claimed an opinion that it’s okay to eat chazir to supposedly avoid chilul Hashem, he’d rightfully be called a reformer. And, yes, the Reform had what you’d refer to as a “greater talmid chacham than anyone on this site.”
Reb Eliezer: the mother threw herself under the bus. And she got herself run over.
Goldilocks: Absolutely.
chiefshmerel: If the King offers you chazir, will you eat it to “avoid chilul Hashem”?
Diana and James Hewitt were guilty of the Treason Act 1351, starting in 1986, a mere five years or less into her marriage. But were subject to (and frankly should have been) executed under the law for having committed treason.
Reb Eliezer, Diana was much worse.
It is prohibited to attend a church service. It is even prohibited to simply enter a church sanctuary.
Reb Eliezer, Diana’s commiting adultery is inexcusable. Under British law at the time, she was liable to be executed, as the law provided the death penalty if the wife of the heir to the throne committed adultery.