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CS: Gefilte Fish, of course.
CAD: Yabiabis absolutely correct. I’m sorry for not asking. (I actually thought of asking but wasn’t sure if it it would make you uncomfortable. What is causing you unhappiness?
Jackk: Why are you downplaying a severe prohibition that carries the death penalty. Chayiv Misa means exactly that. It is nothing to be trifled with. It isn’t just a theory; it carries capital punishment as a real legal matter that the courts can and do enforce.
Are we discussing three year olds?
“The Cherem deRabbenu Gershom conversation is a bit far fetched too. There are much simpler answers to the crisis, that would require a bit of maturity instead of a complete transformation of the marital and familial structure of our society.”
Yayin: Again, to reiterate, even with the relaxation of the Cherem (and only with the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, of course), it would only be relevant for a very small number of marriage. 95+% of marriages will continue to be monogamous. Only a tiny low single digits percentage of marriages being polygynous will be sufficient to alleviate the disparity in numbers between males and females in the Shidduch parsha.
Additionally, only a small number of men will be capable (financially, emotionally, etc) of supporting multiple wives and only a small number of women will be willing to be part of a polygynous family. So it will be self-correcting and only affect a few.
“If we can’t convince litvishe girls to be willing to date wonderful chassidish boys, or various other great profiles that they refuse to consider, do you really think they’d be willing to date as a second wife?”
You’re hitting upon another excellent idea. Do you not think it can be feasible to successfully be meshadech Chasidishe boys with Litvishe girls if enough effort it put into it and, perhaps, an origanized effort my Klal Yisroel is made to encourage — similar to how NASI and others have been encouraging close-in-age Shidduchim?
By the way, most self-identifying “Litvish” people come from Chasidish/Heimish family backgrounds. There are very few true Litvaks.
“The Cherem deRabbenu Gershom conversation is a bit far fetched too. There are much simpler answers to the crisis, that would require a bit of maturity instead of a complete transformation of the marital and familial structure of our society.”
Yayin: Again, to reiterate, even with the relaxation of the Cherem (and only with the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, of course), it would only be relevant for a very small number of marriage. 95+% of marriages will continue to be monogamous. Only a tiny low single digits percentage of marriages being polygynous will be sufficient to alleviate the disparity in numbers between males and females in the Shidduch parsha.
Additionally, only a small number of men will be capable (financially, emotionally, etc) of supporting multiple wives and only a small number of women will be willing to be part of a polygynous family. So it will be self-correcting and only affect a few.
“If we can’t convince litvishe girls to be willing to date wonderful chassidish boys, or various other great profiles that they refuse to consider, do you really think they’d be willing to date as a second wife?”
You’re hitting upon another excellent idea. Do you not think it can be feasible to successfully be meshadech Chasidishe boys with Litvishe girls if enough effort it put into it and, perhaps, an origanized effort my Klal Yisroel is made to encourage — similar to how NASI and others have been encouraging close-in-age Shidduchim?
By the way, most self-identifying “Litvish” people come from Chasidish/Heimish family backgrounds. There are very few true Litvaks.
“These mindless rants about a so-called “shidduch crisis” is only increasing the stress levels and pressure on young men and women already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert.”
Ghadorah: If there’s no Shidduch Crisis, as you’re claiming, then what exactly about are single men and women “already struggling with multiple challenges as they look for their beschert”??
קידושין ז, א
אמר ריש לקיש: טב למיתב טן דו מלמיתב ארמלוKesubos 75a
אִיהִי בְּכׇל דְּהוּ נִיחָא לַהּ כִּדְרֵישׁ לָקִישׁ דְּאָמַר רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ טָב לְמֵיתַב טַן דּוּ מִלְּמֵיתַב אַרְמְלוּ אַבָּיֵי אָמַר דְּשׁוּמְשְׁמָנָא גַּבְרָא כּוּרְסְיַהּ בֵּי חָרָאתָא רָמֵי לַהּרַב פָּפָּא אָמַר דְּנַפָּסָא גַּבְרָא תִּיקְרְיֵיהּ בְּסִיפֵּי בָבָא וְתֵיתִיב רַב אָשֵׁי אָמַר דְּקַלָּסָא גַּבְרָא לָא בָּעֲיָא טְלָפְחֵי לְקִידְרָא
Kesubos 86a
יוֹתֵר מִמַּה שֶּׁהָאִישׁ רוֹצֶה לִישָּׂא אִשָּׁה רוֹצָה לְהִנָּשֵׂאubiq: I added a citation to my comment that you quoted a few minutes after posting it. You may have submitted your response prior to seeing my citation. The Darchei Moshe and Rema demonstrate Rabbeinu Gershom provided exceptions to the Cherem, such as if the wife couldn’t have children. This effectively establishes that prior to R”G’s Cherem no such exceptions were necessary for polygyny.
Also, the living examples for Teimanim, Moroccans, etc. who practice it are of regular Yidden.
As far as Tanach or Chazal, they didn’t always tell us everyone’s full marital statuses, etc. In other words, if Tanach or Chazal didn’t cite a second wife for Ploni, that isn’t necessarily an indication that Ploni didn’t have a second (or third) wife.
And in any event, the examples of Ashkenazim up to R”G’s time and the examples of non-Ashkenazim up to modern times, itself demonstrates that people without special status (other than, perhaps, being relatively wealthy, etc.) had more than one wife.
ubiq: Until Rabbeinu Gershom, the people married to more than one wife were regular Yidden, not any special circumstance such as a king or people who necessarily couldn’t have children. In fact, R”G made provisions when establishing his Cherem to provide exceptions in special situations such as inability to have children. [i.e. See Darchei Moshe (Even HaEzer 1), Rema (Even HaEzer 1:10)] Beforehand, no special situation was required.
With the Teimanim, Morrocans, Sephardim and non-Ashkenazim who practice polygny right into the contemporary modern era, it is also regular Yidden who practice it.
In any event, if the Ashkenazic Gedolim reestablish it in present-day times for Ashkenazim (non-Ashkenazim already have the natural halachic right to practice it), they could institute it with guidelines on who is or isn’t authorized to do so. Such as requiring the husband to have the financial wherewithal to support multiple wives and/or other criteria limiting it (i.e. the acceptance of his current wife/wives.)
“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”
The same reason a goy is chayiv misa for theft.
“A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.”
Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.
Welcome Back, Ctrl Alt Del! It’s been ages…
CA: I already have everyone’s info.
Kuvult, that’s exactly what I said in the last paragraph of my comment right above yours. Even with polygyny being a viable option, simple mathematics alone dictate that it’s only an option for a small minority of marriages. That’s how it always was when Yidden had (or have) more than one wife.
If the age gap is truly the issue and it is causing a disparity in there being more girls than boys looking for Shidduchim, as a number of Rabbonim and askonim are saying, then indeed repealing Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom’s prohibition of polygyny, something the Gedolim have a right to do (in fact R”G himself set an expiration date), would help the Shidduch Crisis.
Obviously, even when permitted, polygyny would be for a small minority of marriages and not for most.
Haifagirl used to be the CR’s official English Nazi.
Where have I even mentioned antiquity, sir? Not even one word about that, yet. My entire comments were regarding contemporary and modern.
But since you mention it, should Yaakov Avinu not married Rochel Imanu? Or skipped on Leah Imanu?
Jews live in other places as well. Such as in South Africa, where even the President of the country until about 6 years ago, had more than one wife. And in Morocco Jews still live and some Moroccan Yidden have more than one. Iran as well. Jews lived in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq until about 15 years ago, which are additional examples where it is legal under secular law.
Even in the United States it is legal if you don’t apply for secular marriage license and stick only to Kedushin and Chupa. The Mormon Fundamentalist do it openly. The Utah Attorney General tried to challenge it in court in the 1950s, but the courts ruled they couldn’t interfere with religious marriages if all the parties were legal adults and no minors were involved. Many African immigrants living in New York immigrated in the last 20 years to the US with multiple wives.
GHadora: Sefardim, Teimanim and other non-Ashkenazim were never subject to Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom. And still are not today. Indeed, even up to modern times you can find non-Ashkenazi frum Yidden who have more than one wife, simultaneously. There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. And it is the heilige minhag these Yidden have always practiced, and some still do.
According to Halacha, a woman (nochri) who aborts her baby is Chayiv Misa.
It cooled off a lot sooner than a hundred years.
Syag, there’s no hate involved in mentioning that the Zionist Entity is a Shmad State. It is simply stating the facts, regardless if the specific example was in error.
Yochi:
If you are correct then there should be no Shidduch Crisis among frum boys, only by frum girls. Yet, there are a relatively large pool of older single boy. All of them should have been able to get married long ago, due to the tons of older single girls.
By the way, the idea of dropping Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is a viable option if the Gedolei Rabbonim agree it is a good idea.
AJ: I know this person the same way you know your child. It absolutely was due to his blood pressure. There were no other issues.
akuperma: The Rebbe created Kiryas Yoel to be away from town.
You cannot properly express pronunciations in written words only.
AJ: I know it first hand from him. It is absolutely 100% true and accurate. He raised his blood pressure and he was deemed ineligible to serve as a result of “poor health” based on his blood pressure.
Perhaps some draft offices were tougher. But the one he went to dismissed him.
“The view that we need to worry about the secular law infringing on halacha”
Halacha says you can kill an intruder who comes in your home, on the spot without warning (unless it is your father.)
Do you therefore insist secular law in all 50 states permit killing such a person, in order – as you said – “that we need to worry about the secular law infringing on halacha”?
I personally know a frum person who seriously raised his blood pressure via artificial means before reporting to the draft office. The doctor there disqualified him from serving due to his blood pressure being a severe health risk.
Dr. Norman Lamm called Bnei Torah “cave-men”.
Do any mainstream Mesivtas today still teach Shakespeare?
Rabbi Breitowitz clearly said that the ONLY exception permitting abortion is if the mother’s life is in danger. Any consideration other than the mother’s life, he said, does not permit abortion for either Jews or gentiles.
CS: The most important question here is we need your assessment as to whether the OP is a troll?
The lady doth protest too much.
Yekeshe? Where do they exist nowadays?
AAQ: The frum community in America has migrated TO in-town cities, rather than away to the suburbs, as the goyim and secular have over the last 75 years. The frum concentrated over the last 50 years to moving into the NYC, Monsey and Lakewood vicinities — whereas the non-Jewish and non-religious Jews moved away from there, to spread out across the country. Even the cities with sizable frum communities have seen, on average, a net outflow from there to the “Big Three” frum population centers I mentioned in my previous sentence.
Amil, you are again being dishonest. I specifically referenced “when it is required to save the mother’s life.” I purposely did not state the ambiguous concept of “considers a mother’s health”. If having a baby will strain the mother’s mental health for the next 18 years, that is not a valid reason to kill the baby. Indeed, any reason other than to save the mother’s life should never permit abortion.
Every single of the 50 states (plus DC) permit, under all state laws, an abortion when in its absence the mother will lose her life.
Amil: The fact is that out of the 50 United States, not one state outlaws abortion when it is required to save the mother’s life. In other words, all 50 of the 50 states permit abortion if it is necessary to save the mother.
That’s all that counts. The rest is commentary.
Hopefully in the very very near future we will Im Yirtzah Hashem see states outlawing abortion in all cases other than when it is needed to save the mother’s life. For any other abortion illegally performed, we hope to see criminal penalties resulting in the so-called “doctors” or other practitioners committing that murderous crime locked up in prison for a very long time. And in state with courage and conviction will also imprison mothers who voluntarily choose to illegally obtain an abortion when her life was not in danger.
“And if something comes up on the way, like spilling coffee on your shirt”
Please don’t drink and drive.
“And if something comes up on the way, like spilling coffee on your shirt”
Please don’t drink and drive.
ubiq: If a pregnant woman is being executed by Beis Din, the Halacha is to abort the baby first?
provaxx, you’d be okay with the secular government enacting laws permitting public nudity, teaching public school children that the Aryan race is superior or even legalizing manslaughter, since Goyish laws have nothing to do with Yidden?
AAQ: You’re describing the general American, secular, modern, migration patterns. But it isn’t very applicable or widely true for the Frum American community.
Unzere marry a 17 year old first cousin…
GHadorah: Is it hard for these hillbillies to find a shidduch?
Marxist, non-trolls have always been the most dull, boring people ever.
er: Killing in self-defence is also permissible and/or mandatory sometimes. Do you therefore suggest that manslaughter/homicide be legalized, in order not to outlaw instances of self-defense that’s halachicly permitted/mandatory but illegal under secular law?
Get a helicopter.
GHadorah: What’s the difference whether the unborn child developed through an involuntary action or a party unknown? If killing an unborn child is an affront to G-d, certainly no less than thievery, idolatry, arson or manslaughter, then either scenario should be the same as far as it being impermissible.
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