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Such stupidity on behalf of ujm .
Mindboggling.
.maybe we should concentrate this discussion in one thread instead of in two threads
the other thread is titled: i am back 4.0
.
.nu , somejew katan and ujm ….
to the point answers , please ?
.@ yya
Like HKBH does not accept shochad – so too klal yisrael does not accept shochad
Klal yisrael will never accept false changes in our mesorah , just because of the shochad of
those false changers
truly happen to do kiruv
truly happen to be nice people
truly happen to provide a good service for orthodox travelers in exotic locales
truly happen to explain humash rashi in an uplifting way
.these false changes should be called out again and again, without fear or favor , until
real to the point satisfying answers will be given
.
.
.this has , again , no bearing on the many truly wonderful people who
might be [unwitting] supporters of the those false changes.
.
.Katan consistently fails to explain what will happen when the IDF lays down its weapons …
we asked a few pointed questions he REFUSES to answer
for example
1] specifying exactly which country will take over
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal …
in a REALISTIC manner – not even one percent less realistic than ‘katan robot’ himself would expect a doctor to answer him if his own little daughter would have to undergo major surgery ….
these are serious questions which deserve serious answers …
not ‘robot like platitudes’ like “giving the land to esav”
in case there are no serious answers forthcoming , we can take it as a sure sign that for katan , those pikuach nefesh concerns are not serious concerns at all …
.
.Nu mr katan – any response to the analogy to hatsole ?
why is b l a m e relevant in pikuach nefesh discussions ?
is it because pikuach nefesh is not a serious issue in your eyes ????
is this the reason you suffice with the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ????
is this the reason you absolutely refuse to give even one example of a western nation governing another population with different culture religion and language ????
we need answers – not lectures !
.
.Nu katan – any response to the analogy to hatsole ?
why is b l a m e relevant in pikuach nefesh discussions ?
is it because pikuach nefesh is not a serious issue in your eyes ????
is this the reason you suffice with the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ????
is this the reason you absolutely refuse to give even one example of a western nation governing another population with different culture religion and language ????
we need answers – not lectures !
.
.to katan :
It’s a shame that you consider the literal interpretation of the holy satmar rebbe’s writings as anything more than a minority view and anachronistic.
Torah-observant Jews through the ages , accord the Torah view, unburdened with previous prejudices , coupled with , and applied to objective reality , as the supreme view over liHavdil anything else.
—
btw. katan has never answered how many birurim of the reality he would make before his daughters major surgery
more than the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ?
less than the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ?
.
.
katan seems like he is not in the business of answering questionshe seems more into parroting
parrots do not answer questions
parrots do not think
.I am reposting most of my original post which katan somehow chose to call ‘mockery’……
is the nickname ‘mockery’ designed to excuse a non answer ???
because I reposted this challenge without any hint of mockery here .let’s see whether they will be coming with an answer , or not …..
—
I challenge katan with one example of Britain [or any other western nation] presently ruling any country around the globe with the population of that country practicing a different religion and with a totally different culture …
Nu mr katan and supporters … we are waiting for your answer ….
.
will they be modeh al haemet for once ??
just for once ???
.
holding my breath ….
.
.So as a continuation of my previous post –
the answer is : yes some zionists saved a lot of people
notwithstanding that some other zionists did exactly the opposite
but forget about katan — he has totally forgotten about the existence of a midah called ‘modeh al ha’emet’.
.
@katan
what your term ‘zionist’, is not one personits thousands or more correct , millions of people spread over many generations with untold varying degrees of religiosity , sincerity and degrees of zionism
in the mashal there is one and only person who lights and extinguishes the fire
in the real world there is one person who exclusively lights and another who exclusively extinguishes .
.
.Our parrot karrot katan is too lazy to look up an avnei nezer inside even when he is supplied with the exact mareh makom
I do not have the option of quoting hebrew text in this thread
the sefer avnei nezer should be in every self respecting bet hamidrash
mr katan should note the mareh makom and look it up
and acquire the midah of modeh al ha’emet
same with his compatriots ujm and somejew
all three are clear distorters of hazal poskim and rabanim.
.From recent news – this is the neighborhood we live in …..
The footage, dated July 16 at 3:16 p.m., shows five armed men – four in green military fatigues and one in a black uniform marked “Interior Ministry” – confronting a group of hospital staff in scrubs. One man in scrubs, later identified as civil engineer Muhammad Bahsas, is seen resisting attempts to force him to sit. After briefly grappling with one of the attackers, Bahsas is shot twice while on the floor—once with a rifle and again with a pistol. The assailants then drag his body away, leaving a trail of blood across the hospital floor.
A senior doctor in the hospital’s orthopaedic department, who witnessed the incident and spoke anonymously out of fear of reprisals, confirmed Bahsas had come to the hospital to volunteer. The doctor said the security forces stormed the facility on July 16 and remained overnight, confining staff to their rooms.
The footage is the latest in a series of execution-style murders reported in Sweida, where clashes between Bedouin tribes and Druze fighters left over 1,000 dead.
==
do ujm , somejew and katan realize that this is the mentality of our neighborhood NOW , not 200 years ago ?
do ujm , somejew and katan realize that this is the situation we have to be ready to respond to NOW , not some fantasy , only dreamed up in order to justify literal readings of vayoel mosheh ?
.
.Why does katan give the impression that he blind and deaf r’l ?
.
.Arguing with katan is similar to arguing with a deaf person .
@square
you quote me as saying :
There were two entities who had a problem
with the Jewish mass return to Eretz Yisrael:The Vatican and Satmar.”
_____________________________please don’t misquote me
I wrote the vatican and lehavdil satmar .
there is big havdala between the two …
—we all owe satmar rav and his hasidim a debt
without their kana’ut we would all be enthusiastic zionim
that does not mean that their arguments are correct
but we can safely say that their [partly] incorrect arguments stopped many yehudim from falling into a very deep pit .
.
.
.I challenge katan with one example of Britain [or any other western nation] presently ruling any country around the globe with the population of that country practicing a different religion and with a totally different culture …
Nu mr katan … we are waiting for your answer ….
.
.the other pikchim like somejew and ujm are also invited to offer their two cents …
.
Nu ?
.will they be modeh al haemet for once ??
just for once ???
.
holding my breath ….
.
.Its not the posters on cr who attempting to turn the habad rebbi into someone controversial
he was controversial long before that
made so by his own statements , his own hinuch , and aspects of his own way of being mehanech his hasidim
this has been called out by many people much greater than the posters on cr who clearly called him out on those issues
this is not a secret at all and is well known
so the posters are not mechadesh anything in that regard
habad are wonderful jews who could very possibly sit higher in gan eden than me
and agree that their leader learnt davened and cared for other yidden more than me
but that does not make obvious falsehoods part of the torah ,
nor does it give license to turn our long held beliefs into a mockery and a caricature of flippant pretsel like theological rollercoaster changes
again – they invited the scrutiny
if you come with earth shattering claims, you have to be prepared for equally sized scrutiny
and to defend them in an honest and well based manner
you cannot complain when you fail to defend them and there are legitimate questions remaining
.
.
there is no immunity in these matters , sorry.and this is an important safeguard of our mesora
no one , no matter how great , was immune in our history .
no one could sneak past the door and introduce false innovations in our mesora
he would have been called out immediately , no matter his greatness
b’h the system is still working
so b’h our mesora is reliable
.
...
katan:
After SJIK proves to you… were taught …—
Proves ?? there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER , not in your , not in somejew’s writing .
just mindless repetition and parroting
clearly contradicting open avnei nezer
clearly contradicting open sh’a YD 157
—
I wasn’t taught … I simply learned avnei nezer .
anyone can – you can learn it too, but without blinkers and preconceived notions, otherwise you might not understand what he writes.
—
katan lives in lala land
his grasp of reality is obviously weak as he keeps on repeating complete irrelevancies like
– whose fault things are
which hatsole would never ask
– giving land to esav
logic he himself would never ever employ for his own sick child chv’sh
wonder whether his grasp of torah understanding is any better
.
.
.
somejew somehow disappears without answering many questions after [angrily?] throwing unfounded personal accusations around.
.ujm apparently absolves himself from explaining and answering anything at all.
.
.
.aaq:
This price can be paid either by working or serving and it can be paid by teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD …—
fact is that RZ tried for years and still suffer a 30% OTD rate.
this is not a joke , this is extremely serious.
if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant …
.
.@yya
If I could, I would kiss each and every word which you wrote in your last post.
bifrat your last lineBrisker rav is on record quoting yona’s reaction on the boat enveloped in terrible storm
besheli hasa’ar hagadol hazeh .
not him , them , they
it is me
that is the real jewish response
.
.parrot – robot , nicknamed katan :
Nobody of note held the oaths to not be in force.—
ok, according to our parrot , avnei nezer is a person ‘not of note’
good to know.
.
.good to hear that ujm and somejew support katan’s parroting
clear indication that that all of their own explanations are also a result of their blind non thinking adherence to literal reading of a totally anachronistic minority view .
.Practically speaking there is ZERO relevance to propose those silly canards
“give the land to esav ”
as per katan
“if only the z didn’t invade …”only someone stuck in the past could think along those lines
fact is that katan did not name even one country on the globe with a population with a different religion and culture ‘governed by esav’
he is not stuck in the past , sorry
he is stuck to his krumme shitah
so stuck that he became megulgal in to a …. parrot
declaiming words without any obvious understanding of their significance or context
and subsequently turning katan into a unwitting and permanent laughingstock.
.
.Distorting my post .
will repeat :
Heard the following numerous times from literal readers of vayoel moshe“even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad.”
this is a true reflection of that school and even katan in his heart agrees to this, because you will see :
HE WILL NOT DENY THIS !
he might sidestep it , but he will not deny this .—
same with the second point
Heard the following also , numerous times from literal readers of vayoel moshe :“when faced with a binary choice of
either chv’sh the wholesale slaughter of all inhabitants of EY versus enlistment ,
they would choose the former”and again , proof in the pudding
this is a true reflection of that school and even katan in his heart agrees to this, because you will see :
HE WILL NOT DENY THIS !
he might sidestep it , but he will not deny this ..
One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews. When they finally decided to join, they called it “kiruv” as the first point of reference is that they are closet to Hashem. This is not the same as Litivish R Salanter, for example.
—
different topic altogetherI referred to major claims by habad and then their subsequent claim for immunity from scrutiny .
.
.
think this is outrageous .major claims warrant major scrutiny .
.
.Only a fool can continue to claim that the oaths are undisputedly binding,
ignoring clear tshuvot avnei nezer and hashmatat kol haposkim hamekubalim lehalacha
.
.if there is someone dishonest here , it is the person you will be seeing when you gaze at clear still water ….
you asked me a few times to quote sh’a YD 157:1
which I did , and
which contradicts maharal in netsach yisrael 24
I will repeat this once more
sh’a says that betsin’a one should be over on ANY AVERA besides the three [which includes the oaths] because of pikuach nefesh is docheh the issur.
according to maharal , there is four issurim which are yehareig veal yaavor
acc to sh’a there are three issurim only
simple.
.AAQ
you are obviously not following the israeli news
knesset duly legislated to curb the court’s power and guess what – you couldn’t make this up
the court invalidated knessets law curbing its own power !
leftist media plus leftist money plus leftist Biden administration
all collaborated via street thugs and organized anarchy and with violence
forced the elected government to back downthere is nothing more than the rule of the jungle
under the guise of some nice words
in short – kol de’alim gavar
simple.
.chiefshmerel’s approach is a breath of fresh air
.somejew:
…as his [avnei nezer’s] conclusion is as clear and obvious as his introduction which is that the shevios should be followed or the punishment is great.
—–
wrong.
his conclusion is as I quoted him
as follows here :1] avnei nezer says there is no punishments at all for going against the oaths
the punishment mentioned is for the apparent disconnection between the person and HKBH
the persons inclination to go against the oaths is only a thermometer of the level of [dis]connection between the person and HKBH.
2] avnei nezer is clearly bothered by hasmatat ha sh’a , rambams yad etc.
3] according to number 1 above , hashmatat haposkim is understood , because the issue is not the oaths , the real issue is the D I S C O N N E C T I O N from the rbsh’o.
that’s why sh’a and rambam’s yad do not talk about the oaths .all this is black on white in avnei nezer .
look it up and learn it a few times .
slowly.
—
..
the despicable murderers of chevron are the ones who are responsible .
lo tirtsach is said for them too
they hacked people to death
let’s not forget that
—
it is legitimate however to discuss what the jews could/ should do to minimize bloodshed
but we cannot forget for one moment who is responsible for barbaric murder – the barbaric murderer himself.
.
.katan :
If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on ….
—
again, where is katan’s reading comprehension ?
who is looking for blame ???
when hatsole attends to a call – are they looking to B L A M E ?
or are they looking for the best and safest solution going forward ?
we are talking P I K U A C H N E F E S H here , mr katan !!!!
when faced with P I K U A C H N E F E S H , one deals with it , one researches the best way , one loses sleep in finding the exact solution , maybe when in kindergarten one looks for blame …..
simply unbelievable – blame !?!?!
.
.@square
@katandon’t have karyane de’igrata with me now, but will bln quote it
.
.katan :
…. the closest solution seems to be what I posted. [i.e. give the land to esav]
If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on the wicked Zionists who have caused terrible trouble for Jews for over a century and got their Zionist paradise into what it is today.—
lol.
katan probably failed ‘reading comprehension’ in school …your solution of ‘giving the land to esav’
is it ‘airtight’ enough FOR YOUR OWN LITTLE DAUGHTERS MAJOR SURGERY ? yes or no answer please ….katan has not commented whether such an answer would suffice for katan’s little daughter ….
Why not ?
.
.
we asked four basic questions here .why is katan refusing to answer ?????
lets repeat those questions again . maybe we will be more lucky now :
1] specifying exactly which country will take over
2] what that country plans to do when threats arise to the yidden , and
3] how many dead soldiers are they are willing to absorb before they will withdraw , and
4] what the situation will be after their withdrawal …
in a REALISTIC manner –
.
.
????
.aaq:
I am saying that there is simultaneous PR that lomdei Torah need to be protected and value of learning, but then not allowing anyone who is member of the community to join. This is using the crown of Torah for something else.
—that’s what I meant by reality shifting.
in the beginning anyone who was on the vaad hayeshivot list, was deferred yearly.
all others were drafted
this was not enshrined in law
rather as a policy by the minister of defense who had executive jurisdiction over the drafting processthis policy was due to an agreement in 1949 between r ym levin from the aguda and ben g who was israels first pm.
this policy stayed in force for 50 years until it was declared unlawful by the SC in 1999 even though there was no actual law on the books contradicting this arrangement.rav shach as president of vaad hayeshivot for much of this period , was particular to scrap anyone who was not learning full time from the list
maintaining that that such individuals were to be considered rodfim if they continued using the status of ‘torato umnato’ to defer their draft.rodfim in the sense that they could call into question this whole arrangement with the ministry of defense and thereby endanger the real full time lomdei torah
once those individuals were scrapped, they became eligible to be drafted the following year
not only those individuals were scrapped , but even real full time learners who were unmarried and took out a drivers license which was against the then policy of the vaad hayeshivot , they were also scrapped, and subsequently were liable to be drafted .in 2002 the Knesset passed by 51 to 41 , the Tal law, enshrining unlimited yearly deferments for full time learners into law .
this law was invalidated by the SC in 2012 , bringing us to the present situation where the SC and the AG are forcing the ministry of defense to draft every haredi in the name of equality , while ignoring the Arab Israeli and Bedouin youth.as the SC on its own initiative, arrogated more and more power to itself on the expense of the legislature , and as the SC saw that the knesset consistently failed to act , the SC grew bolder and arrogated to itself the power , to cancel any executive decision it deems ‘unreasonable’ , any law it deems ‘unreasonable’ and then slowly extended this even to so called ‘basic laws’.
the SC used its newly acquired extended powers to meddle in army practices and swiftly imposed any emerging ‘woke fad’ into army discipline , making the army even more inhospitable to haredi recruits. Which led to more and more haredi individuals from the non learning cohort to avoid conscription .
In addition , the SC meddling into the draft process led to legal vacuums where the old framework was struck from the books before a new regulation was put into place and took the power away from the vaad hayeshivot which was practically for half a century the ultimate arbiter of who could or could not defer .
the result of this SC meddling was the demise of a 50 year long working arrangement , and the SC invalidation of the Tal law ended the other attempt to democratically codify a new working arrangement , add to this toxic mix the SC’s active imposition of every possible left wing woke position and that’s how we have the polarization and dead end we find ourselves in now.
without fully considering the power of the army and its discipline to enforce a ‘cultural melting pot’ [i.e. forced secularization] this picture is not complete. RZ educators are on record saying that about 30 % of their youth shed themselves from their religion during their service. They claim that this is a price they are willing to pay for their shitah.
for haredim this is totally unconceivable .
.
.Somejew should be modeh al ha emet , and state – there is a bona fide mahloket on this issue.
We were mekabel from our rebbeim what we believe in and others did not.
this ‘maximalist approach’ that EVERYONE holds like me, is false , and has been proven false.
when that happens , his arguments will be heard in a much more favorable way ….
.
.katan :
Had the Zionists never invaded, the land would have presumably been ruled by the Christians, with individual religious councils for Jews and, liHavdil, Muslims, living peacefully in their respective areas as they did prior to the Zionist invasion.
—this is an excellent example of katans ignorance of world events
katan is still stuck in the 1800’s where colonial powers rule and indigenous populations still live ‘peacefully’ under their rule.
this is anachronistic.
we live in the 2000’s and solutions from the 1800’s are a total joke.
I challenge katan with one example of Britain ruling any country around the globe with the population of that country practicing a different religion and with a totally different culture …
Nu mr katan … we are waiting for your answer ….
.
.Blame for the past is totally irrelevant .
We should decide for the future , based on the cold facts on the ground as they present now, without fear or favor.
Without being bribed by our own previous allegiances .
There is much too much at stake , we cannot afford the luxury to indulge into saying “see I was right all this time”.
We have to closely observe the going-on’s in this part of the world and learn from them .
And since pikuach nefesh is docheh any issur besides the three , we will have to base our decisions on those cold facts.
.
.sorry there was a typo in the previous post
will resend the corrected version:
another unanswered question directed at somejew katan and ujm
how come you paskan lema’aseh like maharal that pikuach nefesh is NOT docheh the oaths , when
tur ,plus
sh’a YD 157:1, plus
nosei keilimclearly paskan the opposite ?
.
.To summarize
according to katan, ujm, somejew and the literal reading of vayoel moshe –
even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad
and therefore, when faced with a binary choice of
either chv’sh the wholesale slaughter of all inhabitants of EY versus enlistment ,
they would choose the formeraccording to the majority of talmidei hahamim –
joining ,in that case, would constitute a mitsva of hatsalat nefashot.
the oaths are mechayev everone is undisputed ???
undisputed ???
.the israeli’s murdered one and half million unborn babies of their own since the medina’s founding .
the haredim did bh not murder their own babies , but worked hard to raise them even when stricken with poverty , at great mesirut nefesh, while the israeli’s feasted.
had the israeli’s not murdered , had the israeli’s not feasted , they would have plenty of manpower.
now, when the israeli’s claim that haredim do not carry ‘the burden’ … it rings a bit hollow to me ….—
the israeli’s came and initiated wars with the arabs in order to establish their medina , they did not come and ask the haredim what they think .
they created facts on the ground on their own .
do they have the moral right to accuse haredim of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ?
I doubt they do ….—
I have seen those deferring and their lifestyle from close up. they live on practically nothing , they live with nothing , rear their children to be happy with nothing and their youth grows up totally crime free .
for example , bnei brak a city of close to 200.000 people did not have a police station for many long decades .
israel’s justice system did not have to deal with haredi violent criminals since the states founding
are there some social imbalances resulting from the coerced army melting pot ? yes
is the system perfect ? no
can we accuse those mesirut nefesh people of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ? has veshalom .
.
.@katan
.Steipler clearly permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a fact clearly stated in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1 ,this has nothing at all to do with r shacter .
read it yourself in karyana de’igrata.
..
robot katan repeats the same fallacy again and again as if it becomes any more true by its repetition
his mantra is : “It doesn’t matter which country of Esav rules the land, so long as it’s done right …. And if they rule that land, then they would treat it like any other land, and protect the inhabitants of that land, as they do in their lands and territories today.”
robot katan apparently does not realize that he calls his own trustworthiness in to question
robot katan would never rely on this type of robot thinking if the question at hand would be katan’s own little daughter undergoing major surgery
would he rely on such obvious lazy thinking , same as he himself employed when the question of pikuach nefesh of millions of his own sisters and brothers are at stake ?
for sure not .
so the q is : why does he rely on such crap when pikuach nefesh of his own brothers and sisters are at stake ????
.
.
..
Katan and somejew clearly said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course.
They stated unambiguously that IDF’s actions should be stopped immediately and that this is yehareig veal yaavor .
translated to good plain English : even if innocent people would die as result of IDF stopping to act , they should still stop.
katan and somejew did not put a number on those people dying , so it follows that even if all yehudim in EY would die as a result, IDF should still stop.
after a lot of pressure, the source of such a far reaching psak was unveiled : it is a peirush of maharal in his agadic sefer netsach yisrael perek 24.
however what somejew and katan have failed to do , even after a lot of pressure , is to explain why they choose to paskan like mharal in pikuach nefesh hachamura , when said agadic maharal is CONTRADICTED by tur, sh’a and nosei keilim in YD 157:1
who state that for all averot, besides the three hamurot , a Jew is not to sacrifice any Jewish life.
meaning that pikuach nefesh is docheh all other averot , including the [so called] avera of the oaths
this has been repeated on these pages multiple times but without any answer ….
.
.Bottom line
it is incorrect and plain false, to state that it is INDISPUTABLE that the oaths are halachically in force .
it is very much in dispute as avnei nezer very clearly says that the oaths are not binding on anyone.
.
.
..
only a fool can continue to claim that the fact that the oaths are binding lehalacha lema’aseh, is undisputed …..
.
.@AAQ
> It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws.
we do need that important word – unelected .
since the state of Israel was founded as a democracy where power lies with the people
the word unelected here means that the SC do not derive their power directly from the people
only from the law , which in turn derives its power from the people
the SC cannot use their power which they received from the people in a limited fashion i.e. to interpret the law and never to invalidate laws, and then go, on their own initiative, extend their own power without any base in existing law , and invalidate new laws passed by the source of power , the people themselves.
.
.