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RW > there is no test to determine variants. They just assume that the people getting sick got the variants
there are tests for variants. They are done on a random sample of collected samples.
ourworldofdata, for example, has statistics of variants by country and time.RW > first of all the article said that people who had covid likely develop antibodies for most of their life.
RW, I think I see why we disagree. This is a very complicated issue and changing over time. you seem to read popular articles where reporters digest research papers for us. This is often fine. When we know a lot about, say, flu, and a new article about flu comes out and adds one more item about it, a popular article would easily explain it to us. Here we have research papers done very quickly, often preprints, sometimes written in a hurry, that address multiple issues. Your healthline reporter will have to simplify to make it readable, even presuming he understood the article.
If you click on the actual research paper, you will see that the paper does not say what you just said. I tried to summarize what the paper say. I may be mistaken also.
YS >it’s far safer to take the vaccine than to rely on having had COVID a year ago
I read this that in first 3-6 months and with an at least mild case, and with the same variant, having COVID provides reasonable protection. Significant exception: people over 65, where vaccines are 3x better. And that those who had COVID, one vaccine adds further 3x protection, making it comparable with mRNA vaccine by my count. So, seems like at least one vaccine for older people should be recommended.
Both protections decline with time and with change of variant, we are just finding out. Decline is more in transmission (antibodies) than in protection against serious disease (T- and B-cells)
It is possible that COVID provides longer protection against same variant, but it seems likely that vaccine provides better protection against variants.
If you’re offered an unconventional product, you need to check whether it is legal and ethical before using it
Dear whitecar,
even if I did not volunteer to send you the money,
to you are welcome. Hope you are using them wisely.signed.
TaxPayerRW, thanks for the sources. The Nature article talks about exactly the issue I mentioned – longer lasting protection from B Cells (that will produce antibodies in the future) that are developed both by (at least) mild Covid cases and vaccine. This is indeed hopeful. They have a caveat that variants might block this production of antibodies.
Healthline refers to the paper “Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals”. This paper shows 97% effectiveness of mRNA vaccines for those without previous infection and 66%(3x) effectiveness for those with previous infection – the author conclude from the latter that there is no benefit of giving vaccines to previously infected. This judgment is made from the world /WHO perspective that it is better to re-allocate vaccines to poor countries.
My note: High effectiveness of both vaccine and previous infection in this paper comparing to the ones I quoted is due to several factors: other papers I quoted defined previous infection as PCR tests given to everyone. This paper use only highly symptomatic cases as “infected” (those who were sick and went to take a test, with %age of positive test varying over time from 5% to 20% – higher than usual testing). Similarly, they measure 2nd infection as people coming for a test. So, these results are for “at least mild symptomatic COVID”. They also do not seem to adjust for demographics, while acknowledging that unvaccinated were younger (39 v 42 average age).
Bottom line: there is support to say that those with a symptomatic mild case have immunity comparable to vaccines. It could be further enhanced by one does of vaccine – unless you want to ethically donate it to 3rd world. Easy cases may be more risky. All of this pre-Delta.
And, of course, none of these papers suggest any benefit of actually not taking a vaccine and waiting for “natural immunity”.
RW > You do realize that reinfection remains a rarity right?
maybe I did not clarify enough. This data is saying that for pre-Delta COVID:
– reinfections is 5-6x less likely than regular infection. [similar, a little lower, to infections among mRNA vaccines that were 10-20 less likely
– reinfections among 65x older is 2x lower than first-time infectionsmore details in the papers. I don’t think you read them, as there are 8 minutes between our posts. It took me longer to process them.
RW> What numbers will I give for natural immunity when they aren’t reporting on them?
It may be google’s fault that you can’t find the numbers (not kidding). Google adapts their algorithms to what you click on – so you get Reuters, and I get Lancet… Here is what I found (all is for pre-Delta):
PCR-based infected people are 80% protected against re-infection, 47% for those over 65. Does not decrease at 6-7 months. [1] similar 83% result for UK medical personnel [2]. comparisons are in both cases with uninfected unvaccinated people with the same demographics. So, other than with older people, previous infection is close to vaccines.
Kentucky residents with previous infections: those of them who were unvaccinated had 2.3 more infections compared with those who were fully vaccinated [3]. So, vaccination provides additional benefit to those who were previously infected
[1] Hansen Assessment of protection against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 among 4 million PCR-tested individuals in Denmark in 2020: a population-level observational study, Lancet, March 2021
[2] V Hall Do antibody positive healthcare workers have lower SARS-CoV-2 infection rates than antibody negative healthcare workers? preprint
[2] Alyson M. Cavanaugh, Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021RW, you keep saying “not effective” while mostly not using numbers, and when you use 97 -> 65, you are not clarifying effective against infection/hospitalization/death. And you are not giving any numbers for natural immunity effectiveness, and no sources for anything. And this is across multiple posts. I gave you some info I found, please reply with more specific data if you want to actually discuss something.
> How come they never did this with the flu btw? To mandate that everyone gets the vaccine?
a good comparison. Several reasons:
1) Flu natural R0 is 1.3, COVID 2+ for the Wuhan original, and 4+ for Delta.
2) Flu a- and pre-symptomatic transmission is not significant (see meta-study below). Thus, if you and your kids just stay home or SD or masked when sick, you won’t transmit
3) Most population has flu antibodies and, thus, only very young and very old/weak are vulnerable
4) Flu vaccines are less effective than COVID
If you multiple these factors together, the difference is hugeEleni Patrozou, MDa,b and Leonard A. Mermel,Does Influenza Transmission Occur from Asymptomatic Infection or Prior to Symptom Onset? 2009
RebE > antibodies might not work for delta variant, whereas the vaccine does.
Seems to be, just talked to a person who relied on previous infection to not vaccinate and just came out of ICU after the second infection. Anecdotes are not data, but those who think the same way please beware.
YS > lot of people I know who don’t want to get immunized because they have antibodies were tested positive for antibodies months ago and never actually showed COVID symptoms nor tested positive at any point.
non-professional understanding of theory: I think the issue is with T-cell protection. Antibodies are very specific and may be less effective with new variants. T-cell immunity is not helping with initial infection, but kicks in later to protect against serious disease and are also longer-lasting. T-cells generalize better and should be more protective against variants. Light cases of disease might not generate T-cell protection at all. Vaccines do, and possibly AZ and J&J more than mRNAs.
Bottom line, suggest to them to get one vaccine, with their initial disease working as a prime.
I quoted before a paper that estimates that vaccine works better than prior infection. I would not say that paper is 100% convincing, but those who claim opposite, should bring their sources.
> Actually, 12-18. So far.
I don’t want to out anybody, but if you have 18 months of antibodies, you probably worked in the Wuhan lab or worked at the proverbial wet market butchering ferrets.
I looked at 2017 FDA paper that identified 22 cases of Phase 3 trials rejecting results of Phase 2 between 1999 and 2017. Out of these, 7 were vaccines, and only one of them, V710 against staph infections in hospitals, was rejected due to safety concerns, the rest due to low efficacy. It took 8,000 patients in Phase 3 to detect the issue. Not stated in the text, but it seems it did not take much time (complications followed vaccinations, not long term effect).
Caveat: authors are saying that not all negative results were published before 2008. After 2008, tests needs to be registered with clinincaltrials site before starting, so all results should be reported, including negstive.
Health > Why does Medication or Vaccines take 9 – 10 years to be approved instead of a few months?!?
There are differences between medications and vaccines. My simple understanding:
medicines – balance between risk and benefit, often can be used in severe cases if there no other hope. On the other hand, medicines taken against chronic diseases, affect patients continuously and have potential of side effects, so require a lot of testingvaccines – on one hand, their effect is time-limited. So, complications are expected only during a short time interval. On the other hand, it is given to millions of healthy people who have low probability of getting a disease, so even very low risk is not acceptable. During pandemic, though, risk of disease is very high, allowing for faster approval due to a higher benefit.
Baal > I can name many poskim that are against this particular vaccine
you are not going around looking for a posek with a view, are you? what is your posek (and your doctor) are saying?
> VACCINES TAKE AT LEAST 12 YEARS (CDC) before approval, as per trial basis,
this is a good point, let’s look at the risk in detail. Could you give us a case of a vaccine where complications were discovered more than a year out in last, say, 40 years, and let’s see if this risk is applicable to COVID vaccines.
> how do i survive this lockdown,
People love quoting Rashbi as an ideal of learning v working. Why not learn like Rashbi and his son did, while hiding from Romans? Maybe share with us here something you learned.
One old book says “if the czar would understand the value of Torah, he would put a soldier with a rifle near each Jew”. while turning the page, I continued in my mind “and when someone attack the Jew, the soldier defends him”. The next page actually said: “and when the Jew distracts from learning, the soldier is pricking him with the bayonet …”. And that was before Internet. So, value the time that you got.
RW > But since when did masks and vaccines start to work only based on what someone else does!? You are openly admitting that the mask and vaccine is not effective in that case!
Do you really not understand concepts of probability and virus propagation? Each of the tools protect to a certain degree. If you are not careful, you have a chance to pick up the virus and expose others. If you are in a prolong close contact with someone, say live in the same apartment, chances go higher. If someone is not healthy or old, their chances are still high even if they are vaccinated and masked. Say, you are working in a nursing home – would you still not do anything? test? mask?
RW> Are you messing with us or just lack basic comprehension skills? You keep repeating that I said I am willing to avoid vaxpass venues. When did I say that! I clearly wrote (in answer to your question) that both vaccinated and nonvaccinated should boycott these venues who require proof of vaccination in order for things not to get worse.
I understand that you want me to boycott them, but I think your boycott would be sufficient. I hope you do not expect us respecting your desires more than you respect ours.
maybe we should go to basics on human obligations? Bava Basra – two houses of different height. The one with the higher roof has to build a fence so not to intrude on privacy of the person below him.
So, a person who might be a danger to others has to act, not the one who needs to be protected. You don’t have to take a vaccine. Just distance from vaccinated people, wear a mask, do weekly PCR test, wear a sign that you are not vaccinated, move to remote location, move to states where most pepole are not vaccinating – there are multiple ways you can act – in addition to multiple vaccines from 3-4 different technologies (mRNA, JJ, Novavax, Sinopharm).
Could you indicate which of these paths you are willing to follow to at least some extent? You already indicated that you are willing to avoid places that require vaccination. This is great, I respect that. Just look over the whole list, disengage for a moment from your worries about the whole world, amd analyze what you personally are willing to do.
>> And that means to boycott places which require you show a vaccination card whether you are vaccinated or not.
So, we agree. Please boycott places that require a vaccination card and I hope you will not define us freedom to congregate in such places. Unfortunately, many anti-vax/mask/SD people disregard privacy of others. Now, I can see people without masks and duck anti-SD kissers, but vaccination status is harder to check. Anecdotally, many would lie or ignore recommendations/regulations, or even show fake cards. I am really happy you are not one of those.
ujm,
see July article Ali Hamady, JinJu Lee, and Zuzanna A. Loboda “Waning antibody responses in COVID-19: what can we learn from the analysis of other coronaviruses” for a lot of details on antibody and T-cells.
They are saying that antibody response from disease is lower than vaccine, especially for new variants, as vaccines are designed to target multiple parts of the virus.
I would add my own understanding that disease protection varies depending on severity. Having a mild or asymptomatic case may or may not give antibodies (to be confirmed with the test) but may not guarantee longer T-cell response, so you may want to continue measuring antibody levels/
Disease + one vaccine are getting great results, with disease substituting for the first vaccine. This sounds like a reasonable middle way.
We just had a parsha with Hashem giving us a mitzva to be empirical with potential demagogues, navvim sheker – check their predictions. I think Biden’s unprompted very specific prediction on July 8, less than 40 days before it happened, qualifies: “There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of a embassy in the—of the United States from Afghanistan. “. Do we accept navi sheker defense when he blames the previous naviim?
RebE > the egg is shared
Look up current articles by military people, such as Gen Petraeus, McMaster and even partidians like Seth Moulton, or blogs by US Army veterans, see what they are saying. There is a legitimate military argument for policy – to stay or to leave, and the way it was implemented. For example, many, including Moulton, say that government was not responding to their pleas to start helping those Afghans who were working directly with US military until it was too late.
The underlying theme seems to be arrogance of inexperienced liberals who never ran anything that they know solutions for the problems and hate those who disagree with them. Obama’s brigade was lucky that their early public failure was just a sign up website, and they eventually hired people who know how to make websites. And when thy left Iraq, the country was already functioning, so it did not crumble immediately.
RebE > Afghanistan as Iraq is being overrun by terrorists.
(part of the ) Iraq was overrun by terrorists by the way Obama left it. And he also blamed Bush for that. Possibly were Hillary elected, ISIS would have still be there. Biden had an immediate view, and probably a hand, at that. All he learned was that if you blame others and avoid taking responsibility, you can survive politically.
RW > Those vaccinated who have such pride and think the unvaccinated should be punished and are promoting this new way of life,
We might naturally evolve into 2 species: one with vaccine, and one with Covid. We can have separate schools, shuls. In US, we can have separate states that can make you safe from all regulations, except the federal ones – and even those can be mostly rescinded by the state. But, please, in the areas where you are a minority. either do not walk among vaccinated or have a sign on you so that others could avoid you.
RW > Fine but what is the solution here long term.
You don’t know what the long term is. Maybe, this or next vaccine will work. Or, the virs, h’V will mutate to worse. Or, maybe one of the evil empire will find a way to weaponize the virus (further).
Address the current problem.>> just saying it is a variation of the old one, so no testing is required.”
Health> So why aren’t they doing this?First, as I explained, it seems that manufacturers are not yet requesting it, seeing that the current vaccines are still useful. Biontech founder talked about this recently. Google it for more details.
Second, I outlines two extremes, I don’t know which one is more reasonable. If they follow a permissive one, some would immediately say “untested”!!
In my, not fully informed, opinion, there could be more careful experimentation within the ongoing vaccination: try slightly different doses, slightly different schedules, to gradually build knowledge of what works better without doing much harm.
Biden knows history and Senate. He will only resign when, like w/ Nixon, Senators will tell him they are going to vote to convict. A better question – whether any of the Secretaries – State, Defense or Military leaders or advisors will resign. Either, because their advice was so bad, or if their good advice was not followed.
Unfortunately, lack of public/media criticism of D- Presidents does not serve them well. With Trump, you would have seen people threating or actually resigning or being fired, when he disregarded their opinions. So, each of these disagreements was vetted through robust discussions. Even Obama
had Biden contradicting many of his decisions (killing Osama, staying in Afghanistan), forcing a discussion. With Biden, most of the discussions are happening after the disaster already happened.
Petraeus, McMaster, Bloomberg published in the last day. I don’t know whether they were quiet before, or were not quoted, or were trying to talk in private, but it is too late for a lot of innocent people.phil: it’s a 2x decrease in these approximately 2-4 months. So what happens when a few months go buy and eficacy totally diminishes?
A good Question! I looked up plots for several vaccines and it seems that it is generally NOT declining at the same rate (2x every 4 months). Instead, it goes down rapidly for some months and then approaches some lower limit. for example, rotovirus vaccine for children starts, in rich countries, at 98% and goes to 95% in a year, and stays at 90% for 5 years. In poor countries, it starts 65%, down to 40% in 1 year, and down to 30% in 5 years. Guessing, because antibodies go down quickly, but acquired T-cell immunities stay long-term.
Anyway, if most people will vaccinate while vaccine are working well AND population will keep some caution for a while, then, the overall disease level will be low, and less or no boosting will be required. Conversely, if any time the virus goes down, people will stop vaccinating and start partying, then virus will stay at medium level – going down when peo0le are scared, and going up when people are relaxing. Exactly what happened in April-July – and we are all in a worse condition because of this.
health > You as a Lib will defend it, no matter what.
If you are addressing some other, liberal AAQ, in this group, then let him answer this question. I get enough flak her for my actual positions to answer the baseless one!
>> Every year they change the Flu vaccines to deal with the Mutants.
They could do the same thing with the Covid 19 vaccines.from memory: Flu vaccine is developed in a totally different, and a simpler, way, than Covid. They also need I think about 6 months for production, so they use early data from Southern Hemisphere’s winter to (imperfectly) predict what strain will happen during the winter. COVID manufacturing was set up in about 8 months completely anew and consist of several contractors each, and I would trust companies like Moderna and Biontech on weighting new v. old processes. The only government input might be – how much testing they would require for a changed vaccine: extremes would be requiring Phase1-2-3 as with a new one, or just saying it is a variation of the old one, so no testing is required. I would think if the companies had a new product, they’ll not hesitate press the government. So far, I did not see that happening.
health > But the Government should persuade the Pharmaceutical companies to make vaccines that work directly on the Variants!
so far, response was that they are tracking it and testing new vaccines but for now the original vaccines are sufficient. Maybe this takes into account difficulty of changing manufacturing process that is quite complicated.
>> However with viruses like the flu and covid-19, they mutate constantly and therefore the shots against them are virtually useless.
Phil, Covid vaccine developers took that into account. Covid mutates less than flu and there are certain features that Covid virus needs to have in order to be effective. Vaccines were developed to attack multiple patterns like that. Variants seem to decrease vaccine effectiveness but not fully. Level of antibodies does not fully account for the whole immune system, such as T-cells. Real-life data is more indictive. This month Israeli data – seniors have 7x less hospitalizations with vaccine months ago v. those who do not. So, this is a 2x decrease from 15x as in Phase 3 against original virus, but still substantial effect.
> Is there any state in the USA that the government successfully handled Covid?
a good question that is hard to answer given randomness of pandemic over time and different condition in each state. But see below states with lowest cumulative deaths/100K population – it is obvious that most of them are remote, rural, low density, but not all remote states are on this list! And many of them have older population (Maine, Vermont), so maybe they did something right.
Hawaii 40 / 100k
Vermont
Alaska
Utah
Oregon
Maine 80
Washington
Guam
puerto rico
New Hampshire
Colorado
Nebraska
Idaho 120/100k
Virginia
Wyomingcoffee > The hygiene thing was about masks or about shots?
I am calling on all of us to behave like menchen in all aspects and treat others with respect and care, whether this requires masks, shots, or helping an elderly person cross the road.
There is an expression I do not hear often lately – Ehricher Yid. If we foolow that, many questions here will not need to be asked. I checked with Prof. Google – he has 3K of Ehricher Yids v. 7 mlns of ‘frum” …
phil > In Israel it is currently at 53% while the unvaccinated positive cases are only at 43%
recent stats from Israel: rate of serious cases among older than 60 vaccinated is 7x lower than among remaining unvaccinated. From early data, seems like 3rd booster reduces this further.
>> most doctors. What choice do they have other than to support the vaccine?
my doctor asked whether I am vaccinated and the, unexpectedly and embarrassing to me, said “thank you”, as if I did him a favor … He surely did not have to say that.
Shmuel’s father used same layered approach, keeping orphan’s money hidden and between 2 layers of his own – top for robbers, lower for damage
> I don’t think people should be forced to be mensches
I am not talking about forcing, I am talking what is proper for us to do, so you seem to be on board
> make the masks free (subsidized)
makes sense. whoever here does not have a mask, please ask mods to forward your address to me, I’ll send you some, bli neder. I actually put a bag in one shul early on, when they were hard to find and expensive (with uncertain effect). And, I think, a number of places, like hospitals, give away some. Also consider spending some of the stimulus money on that.
> Covid-19 strikes hardest as those whose lives were already coming to an end meaning that but for the government, the economic impact would have been negligible.
I don’t think this is how halakha looks at the value of life.
coffee, the question is – how often problems found during Phase 3 vaccine trials more than 6-12 months after the start of trials. This should be disclosed as part of Phase 3 results. I recall looking at this, not exhaustively, and did not see any
coffee, a good question. I’ve looked at recall information. It seems that problems with vaccines are typically found quickly. That is, there might be short-term side effect after vaccine uptake, but not long-term. It seems to make sense in terms of how immunity reacts to a threat. If there are long-term vaccine cases, please point me to them.
As to short-term, there is a lot of data by now. First, original Phase 3 trials are now more than a year old. So, they would have safety info. Second, real world tests are now done on millions of people and statistics collected.
That said, there are some decisions that are made as pressed by time and conservative approach – such as having, for now, doses for younger adults and children being same as for older people.
Immune response seems to be universally higher with younger age, and risk lower… These decisions are based on Phase 3s being set up for a reasonably high dose to pass the test from the first attempt, and lack of data on lower doses. Whenever FDA authorizes 10 mcg for children < 12 y.o. (v 30 mcg for adults) or when regular authorization will be available, hopefully it will be possible for all young people, even above ba mitzva to use lower doses.> Acknowledge that the anti Corona vaxxers may be right about some points and adre them honestly .
I thought lots of people were talking here. I agree that there are gov sources that turn information the way they need today, and there are some reasonable anti-vaccine arguments. Still, the way anti-vaxxers present their information (or, more likely, copy it from dark corners of internet or “russia today”) does not help their cause. If the same person is against mRNA for reason A, of J&J of reason B, of masks for reason C, and of Social distancing for reason D – and all reasons are not very reasonable – what is a chance he came to these conclusions through logical thinking? not much. It means that the person’s thinking ability is overwhelmed by a stream of propaganda that he is consuming. If this person lives in China or Russia, this would be understandable, but if this is a Jewish person living in a free world, there is something wrong here. It seems that we have pockets of the community that is getting sucked into the DarkWeb, some of them not even using internet, but hearing it from friends.
coffee > you’re not forced to, it’s your choice
> you shouldn’t be forced to “protect someone who doesn’t want itWhat happened with being a baal middos and tzedokah? I think you are tripped by the abnormality of the situation. I am sure, if a reasonable poor person approaches you, you are not saying “you should have gone to college”. So, if some poor uneducated souls walk around, you won’t inconvenience yourself? And, again, as they are endangering vulnerable people, you are indirectly doing the same.
RebE > Use j&j which does not use this technology
I think he already found a tiruts for that also. But let’s put aside the medical discussion – it is understandable that someone can get lost in medical terminology about a cutting-edge technology. Go, down to basics. So, someone is not vaccinating, and thus, are a higher danger to the society around him. If he is Jewish, then to the Jewish society.
Then, there are kosher solutions:
– limit your interaction, especially with vulnerable people,
– do not congregate in large groups
– wear a mask
– do weekly COVID test (this is now offered as an alternative to some government workers)It may be unclear where exactly to draw the line, but a person should do some hishtadlus in bein adam l’havero in this case. I hope that vaccine sceptics can report on what they and their haverim do in this regard. If they are not, then we need to talk about middos in a wider context, not just about medical and statistical education.
Avira, thanks for acknowledging that Chareidi lifestyle is an emergency decree, and it produced measurable results in terms of dedication to Torah and cohesive communities. And I understand your feeling that the dangers are higher and higher.
There is a reason that this is a emergency decree, so Torah/Chachamim would not want us to live like that under normal conditions. So, the next question is to ask honestly – what are the downsides and how can we mitigate them without losing the positive sides. And situation is different: we are 200+ years into modernity, 100 years in USA and Israel, we have more tools to deal with it than 100 years ago.
Avram > Good thing there are many rabbis and poskim who are aware of how frum Jews live and who advise Jewish families.
This is not an answer. There is a reason we are learning traditional sources. We learn from Gemora/Rishonim/Aharonim who to resolve modern issues. You are welcome to quote specific psak and analyze how it applies to previous ones and to modern conditions, but simply outsource a solution is OK for an Am Haaertz, but if someone is trying to defend a lifestyle of learning Torah, you should do better than that.
Ari > many modern orthodox spend even more money on university, major in art history or philosophy
Avira> MO move out of Brooklyn and aren’t as embarrassed to send their children to public school r”l.I think you guys generalize somewhat. A lot of people go into engineering, computer science, medicine, law. True some elitism is there. A friend who sends kids to YU & Stern to be ina Jewish U, reported that some of them were looked down by classmates by going to an inferior school. There is also an assimilated idea of “kids going away to college” as a bar-mitzva of sort, need to separate the idea of education from “exciting experience” that indeed often ends badly. Sending kids to a local university should be a fine alternative. Some “MO” students, though, are mature enough and thrive in colleges, continuing learning and fully observant. I think you can see in advance which ones can do it.
I am not well versed with the Brooklyn exodus phenomenon, but maybe these people were not able to send kids to public school in NY and now moved to suburbs where they can. So, it is not that they compromised their values now, they just did what they had to do to save their kids from bad public schools while they lived in Brooklyn.
And “rather finance a house” is something to think about.. for people who pay full, or close to full, tuition, Jewish school, whether MO or not, is a major expense (that includes paying part of the tuition for those who do not). If the school also doe not prepare kids for professions at their parents level, it is a very hard proposition to keep kids in such schools.