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And he may influence others that shmoozing with a girl is okay.
So after he is punished, the Rosh Yeshiva gives a Shmooze on it, and for the past six years they have been told girls are the devil sheself, you are still worried about influence?
You must feel very poorly regarding their yeshiva (which explains your position, it must be an OTD yeshiva) and the bochrim there.
My post was unclear. I didn’t mean parents who break the rules of paying tuition; I didn’t even mean breaking any rules. I meant to refer to the parents’ motivation for paying tuition, sending to yeshiva, and following the Torah in general.
That’s what I thought you meant as well. Once again, you have a good point.
Joseph (I mean Pac-Man):
OK, let’s play a little. What “severe negative influence” is there to the rest of the class for three weeks, for talking to a neighbor outside school?
Use Ivory soap. Even if you don’t get fully pure, at least you will be 99.44% pure!
Seriously, I have no clue what you are talking about.
I think I’ll quit my job and pull my kids out of school so that I can spend every possible moment with them.
If you can do it, Kol HaKavod. In no way is it a bad thing (assuming you don’t get to the point of smothering, which is another issue).
Parents are much more likely to have nachas from their children if they pay tuition and send their kids to yeshiva because they understand the the importance of a proper Torah chinuch. They are less likely to find their kids breaking the Torah’s rules if they keep those rules themselves, not because we have to follow society’s rules, but because they are the Ribono Shel Olam’s rules (given to us for our benefit), and out sense of gratitude to Him for all He does for us, we wish to and must.
Just to nitpick (and clarify), I can’t imagine you think that not paying tuition is going against the “Ribono Shel Olam’s rules”. Sometimes, it does happen, that a child’s parents can’t pay in full, and the school gives what they call a “needs based scholarship”. This may even be for the full amont of the tuition, and assuming the family is actually needy, they should take the tzedaka so that their child can attend Yeshiva. Please don’t insinuate that taking a scholarship is Assur (Even though I’m sure that’s not what you meant, it could be read like that).
DY has a very good point. IIRC, Rav Moshe said the reason why the generation of the 30’s went off was because the parents came home after being fired for not working on Shabbos and said “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid”, or “it is hard to be a Jew. The children internalized that being a Jew is difficult and therefore not worthwhile.
The new “Tzu Shver Tzu Zain a Yid” is tuition. And those who pay in full and those who are on scholarships both can have the attitude that “it is too much” (because it is too much, for almost everyone).
Also, paying tuition does not mean the child will graduate. Let’s say he simply failed out. Or easier, (CV) brought in a cross and tried to missionize?. He certainly should be thrown out, tuition payments notwithstanding.
To learn about stuff in the general Frum community outside my Daled Amos.
There was a “Chinuch Roundtable” in the Yated regarding this a while back; the panel was mixed.
To all: I just read in “The Forward” (Nice picture of a board member in a public school teaching) that the sale of the school did not go through; Please disregard my comments.
Instead, I will just suggest to those in the area: Go out and vote against the increase if you feel it is unfair. Don’t assume since the area is Jewish, etc. that it will not be passed (once again, with no actual knowledge of the situation).
Shlishi:
You are actually the first to tell me that the sale was “fair”. Since I really don’t know anything about it, I thought you could tell me more. nishtdayngesheft actually provided some useful information (points 4 & 5), which I assume he knows first hand (lives in the area, knows those who are involved, etc.). I trust him more than some “unknown sources”.
P.S. From what I had heard, the purpose of the board was to allocate more resources to Yeshivos instead of public school children (correct me if I am wrong). As such, they would just be fulfilling their mandate by selling the property in question at a low cost to the Yeshiva. All I am responding was that the low price of the sale causes higher taxes. If the low price of the sale was due to other reasons (as NDG claims), then the low sale price still caused higher taxes, but was unintentional.
P.P.S. There is no requirement to have segregated bussing. If the district wanted to save money via SJS’s idea, they could cut the bussing in half (possibly). Also the article mentions something regarding bussing to out of town districts, which is not required.
If such a place exists, I would like to know about it as well. I did not think such a place existed in Brooklyn.
I agree I have no personal knowledge, B”H. I would be happy to see proof that I am wrong, and that the school was sold for market value. I await your proof.
Had East Ramapo gotten more money (I.E. Fair Market value) for the closed school they sold, then taxes would not have needed to be raised so much.
Backroom deals hurt, even if they are for a “good” cause. Now the results come back around.
The Wall Street Journal has an article on the election, for those that are interested. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/92512/Spring-Valley%27s-School-Board-Election-Fight-Heats-Up-Between-Orthodox-%26-Public-School-Candidates.html
Makes perfect sense if it is a Chassidish Yeshiva (Perhaps MSseeker can weigh in here and explain?). Also a “yeshivish” yeshiva with a reputation to defend, or the girl’s Father on the board (OMG, a boy talking to my little baby!).
There are details missing, and I wonder what they are.
DY: Very good point (I still think it is possible support pays better than rabbaim, especially in places like Lakewood where there is a glut, but you could be correct).
women who wear skirts that dont reach 4″ below the knee are the cause of serious illnesses, tragedies and other catastrophes in the world.
That is only so that men don’t have to own up to them being the ones who are looking for it.
DY: No arguement here regarding the value of a Talmid Chacham. However realize that the reason why Klei Kodesh get paid less is due to good old fashioned Supply (very high) and demand (medium-low). For Kollel Bochrim however, supply is high, but demand is in the clouds. As such, they get “paid” more, in the form of support, and they can “ask” for more, due to relative lack of supply (which is why Kollel in many cases live better than Rabbeim).
P.S. It would be nice for all of us working folk to be Klei Kodesh as well. Someone has to actually pay tuition.
Agree with rosesharon’s good idea. Show them a friend’s wedding video so that they know what to expect.
mrsbrite7
I thank you
For the wonderful Mashel (I saved it to my hard drive), and for reminding me it is not our job to do, it is our job to try. G-d does.
DY: Current normal or “unspoiled” normal?
a true tzaddik is like avraham avinu who was pained when he had no guests or like rav aryeh levine who couldn’t say “no” to anyone because he truly loved everyone, and giving gave him the greatest pleasure.
Absolutely not.
A true Tzaddik was Avraham Avinu who had to Darshin that he was allowed to go greet the guests in the presence of the Shechina. If he would had Paskined he could not go, he would not have gone, no matter how much it would have “pained” him.
That is a Tzaddik.
Someone who can’t say no, and therefore ignores family and Achrayus, is an Avaryan who gives into their Ta’avos. He is no different than someone who eats a cheeseburger gives into their natural ta’avos.
(Not to say CV that is the case with Tzaddikim, but everything has a cheshbon with a Tzaddik towards Avodas Hashem).
Wolf: That is why I disagree with the results, but not with the thoughts behind it (if those are the reasons).
The Torah and Chazal created gedarim for Arayos (Yichud, Negiya, etc.) just for this reason.
I wonder if we can start instituting all the women to wear veals. this way a man won’t be forced to look at other women and this would avoid all improper thoughts.
While I do admit it would disguise the female, I believe a veal would be too heavy for the purpose stated (sorry, typo was too good to be passed up, and it is that sort of day).
Wolf: But it does mean we (as Talmudists) have to act like as if it is a distinct possibility.
They are pushovers.
Someone who is a Tzaddik follows Halacha, slaughters Amaleki babies when the time comes, and doesn’t use “niceness” as an excuse to not do what they should be doing. He does things because Hashem told him/her to do it, not because of some internal “touchy feely” reason.
???????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????
?????? ???? ????? ?) ???????? ???????? ???????? ??.
???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??)
???? ????? ???? ?) ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????
?????. ??? ?) ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???
??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??. ???? ?????? ??
????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????????. ??????
?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. ???? ???????? ????
??? ???? ??? ?? ?????. ?? ? ????, ???? ??? ????? ???
?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????
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Avos D’Rav Nossan 5:2.
This applies to the graduation thread as well.
Wolf: Ain Apitropus L’Arayos does not depend on the age of the girl. (Stam, not to say fathers can’t attend graduations).
I tend to agree with this. Women and girls think it is the most important thing in the torah.
It isn’t.
Popa: Based on what the Kitzur says is the worst Avairah possible, Tznius is probably the most important thing in the torah (Simin 151, if you need to know)
If I would pass a sign talking about men shaving or not, I would not care, it doesnt apply to me. If you care it means its touching you somewhere deep inside. Don’t try to brush it off.
If you think 4 inches is ridiculous, you shouldnt care.
BS”D
I completely agree. The OP had a good point regarding posting signs on private property (Gezaila, just like any other use of someone elses property without permission, such as hanging your stuff on his tree, or storing your bike in his shed without permission). The “four inches” is so ridiculous that it means nothing to me.
That other Jews say these things (and mean it), well, I just don’t have the same religion as they do (shrug). Judaism depends on who your mother was, not by claiming that you are practicing, or creating halacha. If it was, the Karaim and the Reform would both be frum. To me, it is no different than saying one must take an apple together with the Arba Minim.
Of course, if you would ask the learned people, they would tell you it is a geder, a siyag, or a general idea. It is the Hamon Am that are Amei Ha’aretz (just like it was in Europe), and make the broad statements.
Unless you actually might think the “four inches” could be correct, why does it bother you any more than someone who tells you your Esrog should be a plum?
DY: Everyone survived with less, in the prior generations. Now air conditioning is a requirement, let alone heat.
I wonder if you would say the same about Rabbaim, or do they “deserve” more?
I’m curious as per what you mean by “spoiled young adults crises”?
DY: Just timing. The idea is to give the “older” girls a look before one can date the younger ones.
As far as the # of unmarrieds, the idea is to increase it below a certain age (lets say 24, for arguments sake) and decrease it above that age. That way girls who are above the age have more hope of getting married, and are not “Avar U’Batel Min Haolam”.
Let me wager a guess that bored men staring at even the most tznius of women has at least one time caused a bad thought etc. It’s pashut.
It’s far from pashut. You’re basically accusing all men of being disgusting lechers.
Eek! A Male!
DY: They seem to be OK with the freezer concept, this is just an extension of it. To help so many girls, it would be worth a try (or other ideas, like opening the freezer for older girls), unless the result wanted is what is currently in place.
In addition, there is no “second option” for most learners returning from EY who are looking for a shidduch. Until that option is created (and who exactly will be the Rosh Yeshiva to break Lakewood?) the boys will not go anywhere.
Last on that point, the idea will/could open the freezer for going out with older girls. Granted it may be “Tagrei Lud”, but IMHO many boys will take that over the current situation.
I believe you are incorrect (and apologize if the language offends you) regarding the shidduch crisis having nothing to do with the OP’s original point. The shidduch crisis is strengthened by the support issue. The first sentence of the OP:
How are those who are learning full time now going to marry off their daughters and support their sons-in-law in learning?
The simple answer is, marry boys who aren’t learning. However, that doesn’t seem to be an option at first, and when it does come around, the girls are already “older” (This is not to say girls looking for workers do not have similar issues).
DY:
Would make an interesting statement, that the European Jews were not on the level to own slaves, but the Southerners were.
I would like to have seen it in print.
Cholov Yisroel watcher
Wal Mart checkout person/official greeter
CDL driver
Babysitter
You are probably better off staying on the dole and not having to pay tuitions at this point. But if you really want to get off, struggle for another two/three years on one of these jobs, and go to college at night.
hanging bags of rubbish? (I forget the exact translation)
Basically stating something in his name, with him never having said it.
Um: Have you see a Gadol that disagrees? Or one that pushes for boys to go work & support their families? Rav Miller (who actually di push for working men) has lost out in the world of ideas.
DY: Why not? As per an idea, how aboput implement the Freezer for boys for a year (or two), unless they go out with girls older than they are.
As per the assertion, that was made by “ofcourse”.
Rav Velvel (The Brisker Rov) is well known to have said Hashem gave Klal Yisroel special Hashgacha to be able to create a state in EY run by Yidden.
May Hashem continue to shine Hashgacha on Klal Yisroel.
I think as our generations continue, the human condition deteriorates, so that it is indeed inappropriate; the difference in level between classes becomes insufficient to support “avdus”. As well, the “superior” class is unable to treat the “lower” class in the proper manner, and is therefore unworthy of the privilege.
Hate to say it, but you can apply this logic to all mitzvos (which are given to yidden due to being superior, famous mashel with the two sick people and their diet, etc.)
Then you turn Reform.
And if you owned an Eved in Saudi Arabia (where it is semi-legal), or in the Antebellum South (before the war of Northern Aggression), you would have all dinim of Eved Canaanni. But your logic says throw the halacha out, we are too modern for such things.
Reform.
To alleviate feelings of girls who do not want to speak in the presence of men
IMHO, those girls are missing something from their high school education, i.e. a public speaking course.
IMHO the support situation of recent years has caused more heartache to families than could ever be imagined, aggravating the Shidduch crisis as well. Poorer girls are devalued.
And The Gedolim have said it is a worthwhile cost.
Who says that the shidduch crisis is not part of the plan, so that the price of boys goes up, and they can sit and learn longer?
I can’t think of any other reason why Lakewood Yeshiva has not implemented a “solution”, or even attempted one, for the “crisis”
as of yet.
And yes, they could unilaterally implement something, just like they have the Freezer, and everyone else will have no choice but to follow.
DY is incorrect though. That poorer girls are not being considered is the second level already. Many of these girls are second generation (or third) Lakewood/Klei Kodesh.
gavra at work-
yes, we can generalize and say those living in the projects are content with their situation. However, nobody outside of the projects thinks very highly of people who live in the projects, and many have much angst against them, considering them parasites and “good for nothings”. IMHO that is not a role that is fitting of Am Yisroel as it would be a CHILLUL HASHEM and not an example of being Or Lagoyim, whether or not torah study is involved.
In the opinion of The Gedolim, it has been decided on a mass basis that Yidden should take MOFES and sit (even to learn only part time and drey along) vs. going to work and college.
IMHO just does not match up. Actually, IMHO, that sounds like something Dr. Lamm would say, and you know what The Gedolim feel about him.
You are more than welcome to go to either the upstate or downstate NY communities (or the NJ community) and Shrai, for all the good that it will do.
Who cares?
Do the project dwellers plan on how to get out?
So they live in the projects.
“just remember SoaCahToa.”
Isn’t it SoHCaHToa?
But I was never good at math, so what do I know.
SJSinNYC
always pleasant
All Torah Scholars were affected by the philosophy of their generations.
You Kofer!!!
LOL, but most people here would have said it had they noticed, even though you are right.
Satmar, if only for one of the greatest Gedolim in his generation, Rav Yoel, and what he built.