Forum Replies Created
I think I’d be Offler due to my temper. But I’m a little naive, like Twoflowers offset by a bit of Vimes’s cynicism. I also have Rincewinds memory for important things, and Dorfls feet of clay (not to mention his brethren, Klutz, Shmatteh, Meshuggah and Aghammarad).
But I think out of all of them I would have to go with Not-As-Big-As-Big-Jock-But-Bigger-Than-Medium-Jock Jock.
So, OneOfMany, which character are you? Granny Weatherwax? Twoflowers? Archdeacon Ridcully? Dorfl?
My point is that racism was the norm in Twains era and by no fault of his own, he also believed in it to a certain extent. Just read the scene near the end of Huckleberry Finn where Jim is captured and locked in a small shed while Huck and Tom work on an overly romantic plan to get him to escape. The whole time Jim obviously has no idea what is going on, but he goes along with them because he just assumes that they know better than he as to what to do. There’s even a line where Jim muses on the fact that they are white, so they must know what they’re doing.
Also, several times throughout the book, blacks are referred to as almost sub-human by some of the main “good” characters.
Confucious: I agree. I personally never liked those places either for the same reason, it’s an “in town” thing. The larger the frum community, the more tznius issues there are.
When I was learning in Eretz Yisroel I sat next to a chashuva yungerman who is currently a Rosh HaYeshiva. He once asked me, quite bluntly and in front of several others, how much money my father makes. I retorted with “Tznius isn’t just about skirt length” (and probably threw in some insult involving Brooklyn or Lakewood while I was at it. Give me a break, I was 19). That lead to a whole new argument where he talked about how there is no problem with discussing things that come Min HaShomayim, which I eventually conceded but later regretted doing so.
OneOfMany: Yes. The one where the sole black character who is given any voice is constantly looking up to a pair of troublemaking 12 year olds because they are de white man. It’s also the same book where a character offhandely mentions that no one died on a steamboat boiler explosion, but a couple of n*****s where killed.
Or even petition the government not to draft Yeshiva bachurim who have been learning for 10 years? Have they ever even considered those things? No! And why not? I have no idea why not, but it seems to me that they are afraid of change.
Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst Chareidim is close to 50 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the Chareidim use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.
My suggestion is to buy an Android phone. Used Android phones are much more common in the market and you can legitimately do things that can only be done on a jailbroken iPhone.
Apple is very restrictive about iPhones, forcing users to buy only through authorized carriers like Verizon and AT&T and forcing all app installations to go through the App Store. AT&T and Verizon may sell “refurbished” phones, but chances are they won’t be much cheaper than new phones as they make their money off of big plans anyways.
An “unlocked” or “jailbroken” iPhone is a phone that has been hacked to get around those restrictions. There are a lot of disadvantages to having a jailbroken phone, such as possibly being locked out of you data plan or having the phone get bricked when it tries to update, and it’s not recommended unless you know what you are doing.
Lakewood has the advantages of affordable housing (at least compared to Monsey or Brooklyn), a huge yeshivishe community with many choices in Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs, close to major job areas, close to many peoples friends and family and established systems for yeshivishe families. Everything is centered around Yeshiva life and the various gedolim who basically have final say in anything that goes on.
All that being said, I can never see myself living there like many other members of my family chose to do. There is a huge boom in children that resulted in massive competition to get into schools. Homes are built cheaply and often have major maintenance issues. Properties are tiny and it results in a sever lack of the type of tznius not taught in most Bais Yaakovs. There is a ton of “frummmer” competition with everyone worried about what everyone else thinks, much more that out-of-town places, that results in everyone attempting to “fit in” to some weird standard of frumkeit. Most high schools don’t have secular studies (although that should change once the Lakewood babies start hitting 14). Traffic is utterly miserable.
Even assuming that all army services are non-negotiable, there is still “Sheirut Leumi”. Why can’t the Chareidim come up with a kosher service that doesn’t have the tznius problems with “Sheirut Leumi”? It’s not just a matter of rejecting army duty, the rejected it and refused to propose an alternative.
I believe that he was an anti-semite because he had a false image of Jews that was very common at the time.
In the same vein, Mark Twain would be considered a racist (try reading “Huckleberry Finn” and you’ll see what I mean) in our time, but in his time he was very liberal and progressive for suggesting that blacks and whites can be friends and that slavery is wrong.February 4, 2013 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm in reply to: How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families? #927191
FYI, the word a lot of you are looking for is “shababnik”. That’s a Chareidi Yeshiva bachur who never shows up to the Beis Medrash but has been enrolled in the Yeshiva for several years in order to get out of Army service. That’s the Israeli equivalent of a 2.0 GPA and they are rarely asked to leave Yeshiva. A good Yeshiva will still have about one out of twenty shababniks for every talmid chacham.
There is a group of Eastern European men who go around shuls in New York and New Jersey. They never have any haskomos and it’s patently obvious that they aren’t frum and I’ve heard some rabbonim put doubts on whether they are Jewish or just mooching off of Yiddishe chesed. Either way, I don’t ever give them anything.
Actually the vast majority of people I knew were Israelis, not Anglos. I found that amongst Anglos it was a lot more common for the father to have a job, as it’s easier to get out of army duty. I simply find it hard to believe that there are so many jobs in Eretz Yisroel that allow a women to take care of her family, work at home and still support a full family.
That being said, allow me to get back to my original thoughts. I just have a very difficult time understanding the Chareidi lifestyle and why the vast majority of Chareidim put such an emphasis on not changing it one iota.
Let’s understand one thing: Kollel Yungelite keep the world standing. Many of the greatest Rabbonim alive today wouldn’t be who they are without kollel. That being said, I do not believe that a kollel lifestyle is for everyone. My issue with the Chareidi system is that it basically forces <i>everyone</i> to adopt that lifestyle. An American Oleh, farinstance, who knows himself well enough usually decides that Eretz Yisroel is the place to live as it’s a lot cheaper and easier to live there while learning in Kollel. His children, though, don’t have the same choice. They can either sit in Kollel tug unt nacht, or they can join the army (which is not really a choice in most Chareidi families).
What I have difficulty with is how every time the idea is floated to give Chareidim a choice whether to sit in Kollel forever or do something else, it’s always hotly opposed with angry shouts of people claiming that they are dragging Yungerlite away from their learning and mothers from their children. Why can’t Chareidi politicians, Rabonim and askonim petition for some sort of compromise where whomever wants to sit in Kollel may do so and whomever wants to go to work may do so too?
Now, let’s face it. Some 99% of tax revenue comes from the non-Chareid sectors in Israel, yet the much more that 10% the national budget is spent on Chariedim. Why shouldn’t the non-Frum be upset about this?
But your description says “perhaps” a women! That means you still may be Mr. Popa.
I honestly don’t see the issue with it. It’s a silly goyishe custom and if someone wants to do it, gezunteh heit! I don’t see anyone complaining about crowds standing up for the Kallah (another goyish import).
I know that a Chareidi family generally make enough from the wife’s job and the kollel stipend to live day to day, but what about big expenses like marrying off kids or buying a house? Even buying clothes becomes a huge expense after a while.
Also, while I cannot comment on your personal status as you obviously are in a position to know a whole lot more than me, but I have a few questions about how you are describing Chareidi life in Eretz Yisroel. When I was there for Yeshiva, the vast majority of Chareidi friends that I had lived off of the Yeshiva which lived off of American donations. Most of their mothers did not have full time jobs and those that did didn’t make nearly enough to support their children. Almost none of the fathers worked in any non-Yeshiva position. They lived “day to day” based on the fact that the government paid for a huge portion of the Yeshiva starting from Yeshiva Ketana, so children basically stopped relying on their parents from when they turned bar mitzvah until they needed to get married. Did I miss something? Because that’s how most people I knew lived.
Like this ?? . What seems to be the problem?
DaasYochid: You misunderstood what I said. I’m not advocating for the government to force people to leave Yeshivas. I’m simply saying that a reason why Yeshivas are so packed has more to do with welfare traps than limud lismah. It’s not the Zionist governments responsibility to fund Yeshivas and I have no issue with them cutting the funds and do not see it as “forcing” people to leave Yeshivas.
plonis3141: Do you have any children? Do you remember paying for the hospital bills or insurance costs when you gave birth? No. Because “the frei” payed for that. Does you husband get a kollel check? Where does your husbands kollel get the money from to perform maintenance? Do you have enough money set aside to pay for your childrens chasunas (I’YH)? Why are 99% of meshulachim that come to my house from Eretz Yisroel? Why are 70% of them collecting for their own families? Why do statistics show that some 90% of B’nei Brak lives below the poverty line?
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Chareidim don’t make nearly enough money to support themselves without government help, forget about there being enough to support community chessed and mosdos.
What sort of class are you taking where ?? is written on the board more than once? Intro to Theoretical Infinite Sets?
It’s just that it’s an issue that’s simply not up for debate. You can attempt to justify it, but the facts on the ground are that a huge percentage of Chareidi society exists due to the welfare trap. Why should a person subject themselves to long work hours, secular college courses and less learning for a meager income when they can easily sit in Kollel and have the government pay for everything.
It’s funny, you know? The Zionist government is the biggest supporter of limud haTorah in the world ever.
Lapid isn’t interested in accommodating the Chareidim, he’s interesting in eliminating the Chareidim. It doesn’t make his speech any less relevant or true. He understands that Chareidim aren’t going anywhere, so he compromises on his end and asks for them to meet him somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the Chareidim don’t seem to want to move from the far right. Even the “girls in the army” non-issue could have been up for debate, had they actually bothered debating it instead of throwing away the entire plan.
- Lying down on your bed and realizing that you forgot Ma’ariv
- Waking up on a Friday morning and realizing that you’re fleishig
- Trying to avoid weird looks from your co-workers when you wash netilas yodayim in the bathroom sink
- Shidduchim. nuff said
- Not being able to rub my eyes first thing in the morning
- Worrying about the ever increasing pile of random literature at my seat in shul, where it came from and why there’s no sheimos box
CR is a place to blow off a little bit of steam. If you think that Harry Potter doesn’t belong here, you’re taking it way too seriously.
Just because I agree with a single speech that Lapid gave does not mean that I agree with every thing he’s ever said, much of which I’m certain is pure k’fira.
R’ Aron Leib Shteinman famously said that Yeshiva Bachurim who are not learning properly should join the Nachal Chareidi, which is why you see disgusting and slanderous loshon hora graffiti about him all over Geula and Meah Shearim.
All I’m saying is that being a Chareidi and sitting in Yeshiva because (and don’t even try to argue this one) it’s easier than working in a secular environment do not necessarily go hand in hand. They have been artificially made that way and the system must change.
I spent 3 years in one of the top Israeli Chareidi Yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel so don’t try to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Some ten percent of the bachurim barely showed up to sedorim on time, and many weren’t seen in the Bais Medrash for months. This was considered low for a Chareidi Yeshiva. Most of them would be modeh to me, the outsider, that the system is messed up and must be changed, it’s just that everyone was afraid to do anything for fear of some sort of mass secularization of Yeshivalite.
In what way is the judicial system corrupt and anti-semitic? I’ve read and know personally of numerous cases where Yidden (sometimes Frum) are put in prison and I know of few to none where the Yid in question was not guilty of some crime or other.
I think that people like to see our community with rose-tinted glasses and refuse to acknowledge that Yidden are capable of committing crimes.
What if you’ve been folding against the crease for so long, there are now two sets of creases?
Can I be Crabbe, since all the other main characters seem to be taken?
It can be both or neither. I know one thing for certain, asking random strangers on the Internet who have no clue about your personal situation will not give you the answer.
I simply don’t understand everyone problem with what Lapid is saying. It’s true, believe it or not, that to a certain extent the Israeli Chareidi mindset is a result of the Chasam Sofer. When the Endarkenment started, the Chasam Sofer and Rav Hirsch were the biggest fighters against it. They used vastly different approaches, though. The Chasam Sofer famously said “Chodosh Assur Min HaTorah” and assured any connection with the outside world. Rav Hirsch endorsed a way to connect the outside world to Torah. Elu V’Elu. The idea that a Yid cannot be a Yid if he has a job that involves contact with the secular world (lo aleinu!) is ridiculous and never existed in Frum society.
Israeli Chareidi society is a combination of an outgrowth of the Chasam Sofer-niks and the stark opposition to the Zionist state which sought to destroy Torah. Well now they are admitting defeat. Torah is l’neitzach netzachim and the secular Zionists are just beginning to understand that and changing their world accordingly.
Now we are in a very unique situation that we don’t need to cut everything off from the outside world nor fit new lenses to view it. We can literally mold the outside world ourselves. We can create Chareidi colleges, Chareidi banks and Chareidi law firms. Why isn’t this happening? Because many insist that to continue to be “Chareidi” one mustn’t leave the Yeshivas. Well we don’t have to leave Yeshivas, we can bring the Yeshivas with us! Frum society cannot support a community that lives off of a Kollel stipend and secular society is opposed to the idea.
The secular parties in Israel have offered numerous compromises, like the Tal Law, but none have been accepted by the Chareidim. It’s time that the Chareidim understand that you don’t have to compromise Torah in order to change the lifestyle that has been the norm for the past 60 years.
The concept of never leaving the Daled Koselos Bais Medrash has passed. It’s time that Chareidim start working and going to college. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The Whitehouse petitions are silly. The most they’ve ever done was to get a non-committal highly-sanitized political response from some unnamed Whitehouse officer.
And breaking away from the UN would possibly be the worst move ever. It will leave Israel completely vulnerable to Lebanese terrorists should the UN decide to pull out its peacekeeping forces.
Also, what you are proposing is the Libertarian approach. That the US should not get involved in foreign policy at all. This is a wonderful ideal if it weren’t for the fact that it also means cutting off aid to Israel and Egypt (whose American aid is one of the major factors in not attacking Israel).
Just for the record: There is no large group of Chareidim in Israel who <i>do not</i> take money from the government in some form or other. Healthcare, housing, schools, kollel, these are all funded by the Medina in some way or another. Which is why I find the position of those who claim not to take money very confusing.
That’s my great aunts family. I never questioned the fact that many of my second cousins kept three hours, because I always just assumed our entire family was Yekkish. I realized as I got older that there was an entire branch of our family that was Litvish, yet they all held three hours, even those with Litvish fathers. My father laughed and explained that his aunt was simply too hard-headed to be pushed into waiting more than three hours, and her daughters simply followed suit.
I’m afraid that I’m worried more about the inevitable condemnations against Israel when this is over than the rockets, which usually misfire and end up in a field.
Also, “Cloud Pillar” sounds weird, can’t we all just call it by it’s real name, “Amud Ha’Anan”?
I’ll try to explain without using buzzwords like “Cloud storage” and “virtual hosting”.
AWS is not one thing, it’s a series of services that Amazon offers at low-cost monthly rates. At its core, you’re basically renting server space from Amazon. The different services depend on what sort of server space you’re renting.
- Amazon Simple Storage Service (S3). The most basic service. It’s basically a hard drive where you can put whatever you want, such as photos or back ups of your documents. You can set passwords and permissions and accessibility so that people can download or upload to it but not delete.
- Database Hosting. Amazon will host and maintain a SQL accessible database for you. I believe the only access you have is via SQL queries, so you can’t just use it out of the box to upload your files.
- Elastic Computing Cloud (EC2). The most versatile of the services. It’s basically a remote computer that you can do whatever you want to with it, accessible via Windows Remote Desktop or telnet if it’s a GNU/Linux or UNIX computer. The main use for this is to host web sites and other applications that require people logging in to do stuff and administrators to manage the stuff.
- They have a few other services that are more esoteric and complex, like networking your EC2 computers and such. The prices vary greatly mainly depending on where you want the services to be physically located (US, Canada, Brazil, etc), how often they will be used and how much hard disk space you need.
I don’t know much about comparable services, I’ve heard that Dreamhost is pretty good, but I don’t think that they offer as wide of a range of services. Stay away from GoDaddy, they are overpriced and slow.August 21, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm in reply to: Why do they need Chareidi support for war with Iran? #892327
Pandering. Chareidim make up about %15 of the Knesset and with the way that Israeli politics works, every vote counts for a lot.
For all the evil that Iran commits against the State of Israel and the Jews, attacking them full on would be the worst possible solution. It would accomplish almost nothing, as it would be exceedingly difficult to destroy all the Iranian underground nuclear sites. And it would give the Iranians, Syrians, Egyptians and Lebanese the excuse of the millenium to attack Israel with everything they’ve got, and the Jordanians and Turkish will be forced to break off ties with Israel. Ein Somchin Al HaNes.August 21, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm in reply to: Do Ger, Belz, Viznitz, etc presently serve in the IDF? #892284
@Josh31: Kol Torah used to be a Poalei Agudas Yisrael (PAI) Yeshiva, where Zionism was discouraged, but army service was allowed. Most bachurim did not join. Chevron and Shalavim were similar. Now, Kol Torah is very much against bachurim joining up as the social dynamics in Israel are much more polarized between Chareidi and Mizrachi.
As far as I know, Ger does not assur army service and some Chassidim do join up. Vishnitz and Belz outright assur it and Satmar isn’t even a question.
Rav Gifter ztzl: “Of course I’m a Zionist! How can a Jew not be a Zionist? But those people calling themselves Zionists… someone should lock them up for a few years and maybe knock some sense into their heads!”
My definition of Zionism is that it is an important thing for the Jewish people to have a Jewish State. On that I disagree on every single aspect.
From a secular standpoint, a Jewish State is important as it unites Jews behind a single cause. As a Torah Jew, this is ridiculous as we already have the Torah to unite us.
From a religious standpoint, the concept of a Jewish State in Eretz Yisroel is not considered a good thing according to the Gemara. The whole “Ikviseh d’Meshichteh” is an invention by some useful idiots.August 10, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm in reply to: Vacation in Baltimore, MD. What to do? Where to Daven? #890536
@takahmamash Correct. I just noticed that now, how I mis-spelled “Goldbergers” as “Goldbergs”.August 9, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm in reply to: Vacation in Baltimore, MD. What to do? Where to Daven? #890521
Hashgachos: Virtually everything Yeshivish in Baltimore is connected to the Star-K and Ner Yisroel. Pretty much every kosher restaurant has a Star-K with the exception of Accents/Coacochinos (fleishig/milchig restaurants next to each other) which has an OU for cost purposes (they still retained the same mashgiach). There are also a few places that serve Cholov Stam under other hasgochos, such as the Maggie Moos Ice Cream by Quarry Lake and Dunkin Donuts by Fallstaff and Reisterstown.
- Dougies. Same as New York. Great steakhouse.
- Three pizza shops, Tov Pizza, Mama Leahs and Carmels. Mama Leahs is my personal favorite, but Tov is a little more open and nicer. Carmels makes good “extra” stuff along with their pizza.
- Knish Shop: A small deli that has the best sandwiches and subs since they get their meat from Wassermen and Lemburgers which is unquestionably the best butcher on the East Coast.
- Two Asian restaurants, David Chus and Umami. Umami is a litter fancier and more expensive, but they have better food.
- Three fleishig restaurants, Kosher Bite, Accents and Royal. They are all pretty comparable to each other, but Kosher Bite has the best service and selection.
- One bagel store, Goldbergs, which makes great food.
- Coacachinos is a small coffee and sandwich shop (Cholov Yisroel only upon request)
- Van Gogh Cafe. Not cholov yisroel coffee shop. Located downtown, outside of the frum community. They get their food from Goldbergs.
Minyanim (everything is Ashkenaz unless specified):
- Aguda of Park Heights (Rav Heineman): Call 410-764-3333 for minyan times. They have the most frequent minyanim. Bit of a mixed crowd, more older people. Park Heights and Pinkney
- Kehal Ahavas Yisroel Tzemach Tzedek AKA Feldmans (Rav Dovid Heber). Somewhat yeshivish crowd of various ages. Park Heights and Seven Mile Lane
- B’nei Jacob Shaarei Zion (Rav Moshe Hauer). More modern crowd. Many Ba’alei Teshuva prefer this minyan. Across from Feldmans
- Rabbi Aryehs Shul. Persian. Unless you’re also Persian, you’ll probably feel left out. Park Heights and Seven Mile Lane
- Bais Edmund Safra (Rav Goldfeiz). Sephardi, but mostly Persian crowd. Seven Mile, between Park Heights and Reisterstown
- Shomrei Emunah (Rav Marwick). Modern Orthodox, but has a sizeable Yeshivish crowd. Many minyanim through out the day. Greenspring rd
- Agudah of Greenspring. Yeshivish minyan, next to Shomrei
- Kehal Arugas HaBosem (Rav Taub and his brother, Rav Taub). Chassidish, but the crowd is mostly misnagdim that daven Nussach Sfard. Fallstaff and Park Heights
- Sternhills (Rav Kostelitz). Very similar to Taubs. Near the Agudah. Nussach Sfard.
- Goldbergs (nobody knows the real name of the shul). “Beginner” style minyan geared towards Ba’alei Teshuvas and others who didn’t have a good frum education. Sfard. Across from the Aguda
- Kol Torah/Rav Bergers. The unofficial Ner Yisroel shul. Slow davening. Located on Fallstaff between Willow Glen and Clarks. Slow davening, younger yeshiva crowd.
- Weis’s/Orach Chaim. Younger, mixed yeshivish/modern crowd mixed in with an older more modern crowd. Lots of weekday minyanim. Down the block from Bergers
- Darchei Tzedek (Rav Horowitz). Middle age crowd, not very yeshivish but not “modern”. Shelburne and Seven Mile.
- Ner Yisroel. They Yeshiva. It’s very out of the way, and not at all walking distance, but the davening is nice and yeshivish.
There are a lot of things to do around Baltimore, but for some you may have to drive a bit. First off is the Inner Harbor. Without traffic it’s a 15 minute drive from the frum community. The main attractions there are the aquarium (call ahead and buy tickets, it gets crowded and the limit the amount of people coming in) and the Science Center, but there are also boat rides, a childrens museum (Port Discovery) and it’s generally a nice place to walk around.
If you like outdoors, you can check out Gunpowder State Park, which is a great place for hiking. Piney Run park is a great place for picnics, and they also have rowboat/canoe/kayak rentals.
For the little kids, there’s a place called Annies Playground about an hour before you reach Baltimore coming from New York. It’s a huge outdoor playground.
The Baltimore Zoo is decent, but there are definitely better zoos out there.
Washington DC is only an hour drive away and there’s plenty more to do there, such as the zoo, the Washington Mall and the Smithsonian Museums. White House and Capital tours take all day, most of it spent waiting.
I’ll post more stuff when I think about it.
It’s the name of an old computer game from the 90s. I never actually played it, but the name kind of stuck in my head. At one point, about a decade and a half ago, I wanted to choose an email address that was unique enough so that spammers couldn’t find me just by trying all common names (which was how an old Hotmail account of mine got ruined). This was the first thing that came to mind and it has since been my goto user name, along with plain Yserbius, for any place I don’t want to put my real name.May 22, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am in reply to: with the asifa behind us, what will you do about it? #875681
Can I say that I was very disappointed regarding the Asifa? I was expecting a mixture of inspiring gedolim speeches about tahar hamachane along with ba’al habatim speeches giving advice on how to raise children to be wary of the internet, and what to do about the internet in your homes. Instead, it was speech after speech in Yiddish (which, I’m sorry to say, I’m not fluent in and the translations were of little help) with vague terminology and talks of gehennom and the tahar klal. Virtually zero practical information was given over, both in terms of chinuch and technological advice. I’m sorry, but as a guy who spends my days at work in front of a computer with Internet access (filtered, but imperfectly) not to mention Internet at home so that I can work from home when needed and my wife can do her schoolwork, I would have liked something more than just mussar. I heard that the “Kosher Technology Expo” was also cancelled at the last minute.
All in all, a major disappointment.
Maybe where you live. In most of the US, there are unfortunate Amei Ha’aratzim who consider themselves Orthodox that make up most of the Orthodox populations.
“There’s no such thing as escalator out of order, it’s just escalator is temporarily stairs”. -Mitch Hedberg.
I vote for Bill Cosby. Funny and clean.
As an aside, there is a single guy responsible for 90% of the pirated frum music found on the internet. He goes by the name of The_Pirate_Rebbe.
@gregaaron So what if it’s deviant behavior? It’s not exactly hurting anyone. As long as something doesn’t cause harm, I see no reason why it should be illegal. That’s the difference, as I see it, between various types of deviant behavior. If a certain behavior can cause harm to people or property, it should be illegal. If not, there is no reason why it shouldn’t be legal.